landing gear legs too long ?

[mike c]

Hello everyone, I am new to this site. After being a champ driver for years the oppertunity to buy an experimantal bushmaster came up and I jumped on it. This was a project that our local A&P/IA had been working on for years when a sudden heart attack took him at 48 years old. This plane started out as a colt,the frame was lengthend 24",rebuilt cub wings with the longer flaps, 160 hp. 0-320, swinging an 84" prop, converted the yokes to one stick in the front and one in the back, makeing for a very roomy two place configuration.This plane was 0 hrs. Now with 108hrs Ive come to the conclusion that the landing gear could be the achilles heal. The gear is some sort of custom built extended gear.It is very long, at least 6" over stock. With 16"+ prop clearance with the tail up Iam looking at the possibility of shorter gear which would also reduce the strain on the
bungees.This gear is really long and wide.Looking at options for an extended pacer gear and open to ideas. Mike C.

[stevesaircraft(Bri)]

Mike....

Pictures please.....sounds like a cool bird.

Sounds like the gear was made that long to give the airplane as much angle of attack as possible for take off performance. I do agree though that it could be a future problem area.....Have you looked into the Eddie Trimmer gear mod for Pacer's....His gear uses a 3" extended HD Super Cub gear with a cabane V and Maule struts. It is by far the strongest gear available for the Pacer's but it does require a lot (and I mean LOT) of fabrication and welding.....There are other threads here on the forum from a couple of guys that are doing the Trimmer mod......from the sound of it, that would be your best bet to get the nose down a little bit for visibility and have a good strong system.

Brian.

[mike c]

Brian

Id be glad to show some pic's but dont know how,very computer illiterate but could maybe get it done with some help. Take off performance and climb is impressive, makes the supercub guys turn their heads. Have looked into extended cub gear(really sounds like the time to do that one was before the plane is covered!) and it would be very very spendy.As most tail dragger pilots will admit not all full slall landings are smooth, that being said i have definitly dropped it in fairly hard with no damage.This gear is so long that my thoughts are that legs 3" or 4" shorter would definitly reduce the amount of leverage on the bungees considerably. I do not feel comfortable building the gear legs myself.
an

Mike C.

[Steve Pierce]

To post a picture just click the picture frame with a tree in it in the "Quick Reply" box. It will allow you to find the picture on your computer and post it. Sounds like stock Pacer gear would be the easiest way to fix this. i have stock gear and big tires with plenty of prop clearance for off airport ops.
2287

[stevesaircraft(Bri)]

Steve, You may be right that stock gear could possibly fix this problem......BUT.....we really need pictures to see where the gear attach points have been welded onto the frame.....On just about every Bushmaster type conversion I have seen the gear attachments were NOT anywhere near the locations of a standard or Univair gear.

Here is an example of my buddies Experimental....
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/13351_211770706557_696636557_4548806_6964260_n.jpg

Notice how wide the top of the gear is.....the rear gear attach point is at the original rear attach for the Tri-Pacer frame and the front attach is welded on in the same location as a Univair gear....I have a sneaky feeling that Mike's Bushmaster may be similar.

Brian.

[mike c]

Thanks for the pic tip,Ill try to get some on here. Measured a friends pacer gear( the attach points are the same) and even with my 26" tires there would be very little clearance in tail up landings (swingin an 84" prop) and dont want to lose that option when needed. This prop is 2" longer than a borer climb prop! Dont like the thought of it too close to the ground. I thank you guys for your interest, think Ill grab my wifes camera and see if we can get some pic's on here!

Mike C.

[Steve Pierce]

Bushwheels.
2290

[mike c]

2296229722952297Here are some pics2294 if it works. gear attach points standard, my ugly mug in just to show how high she sits, Iam 6' tall. Mike C.

[pistoncan]

I can't see the pictures

[mike c]

Well, knowin the computer smarts of the guy that tried to put them on there Iam not suprised. Ill try again when I get some help.

Mike C.

[mike c]

230923082307


Tryin again.

[d.grimm]

That's a nice looking plane! Are those float fittings beefy enough for gear attach points? It does look (eyeball engineering) a little spindly in the closeness of the current gear attach fittings. The rest of the airplane looks so well thought out that maybe some actual engineering might tell you that it's OK.
Again, Nice plane!
Dave

[pistoncan]

230923082307


Tryin again.

Got em this time! That plane looks alot like one wheelie wayne sent me pictures of.
Now that is a nice lookin experimental wagabond.
Looks like a comanche nose bowl? I woudn;t have thought of that but it looks good.
Id say the builder wanted a really long prop and the AOA to be the same as the big tundra tires so he built those legs a bit longer than normal The only way you are going to get more prop clearance (for a wheels landing) is to go with a shorter prop. Shorter legs would just make the problem worse.
Good for very short field TO and Landing. If you don;t like em, Id be glad to buy them from you. I only have 8.00 x 6 tires and those long legs would help me out.
NOTE: please please, take a bunch of picture of the interior rigging of the controls and send them to me PLEASE? Im doing the same thing (tandem) and I could sure use some ideas. topsaddle@att.net
gary

[mike c]

Thanks for the good words guys, I would prefer that the builder was still alive and flying the plane, he was a very very good A&P/IA and worked on this plane for many years, with the help of some friends of his that were very capable too. So much of the particulars of the plane are gone with him. Dave, those rear attach points are the originals for when it was a colt, nose wheel plane I believe. I think he left the attach point under the wing strut and then added the front one to convert to tail dragger. The balance of the airplane is very good. The distance between the attach points I think is stock pacer dimensions about 13 1/2".

Gary, the plane has 16"+ of prop clearance now, tail up, even with the 84" prop, my thoughts are that with slightly shorter gear it would take a lot of stress off of the bungees. The gear is at least 6" over maybe more. It really seems to stretch the bungees, and then one side starts to sag. I am thinking that 3" extended gear would decrease the leverage a lot. I’d like to put 31" BW's on it but that big of tire would increase the leverage even more. I would definitely sell ya this gear if I put something else on it!..... I will gladly take a bunch of pics inside of cables and riggin. If you were closer I’d say come on over. I am not doin real good at gettin the pic's on here, so be patient, Ill do it.

Mike

[pistoncan]

Gary, the plane has 16"+ of prop clearance now, tail up, even with the 84" prop, my thoughts are that with slightly shorter gear it would take a lot of stress off of the bungees. The gear is at least 6" over maybe more. It really seems to stretch the bungees, and then one side starts to sag. I am thinking that 3" extended gear would decrease the leverage a lot. I’d like to put 31" BW's on it but that big of tire would increase the leverage even more. I would definitely sell ya this gear if I put something else on it!..... I will gladly take a bunch of pics inside of cables and riggin. If you were closer I’d say come on over. I am not doin real good at gettin the pic's on here, so be patient, Ill do it.

Mike
Mike, Sorry, I was confused on what the problem was. I guess I was thinking tail down even though thats not what you said. Now I see now what you mean. Yep I can see why you want shorter gear legs like most of the bush planes have. Does it have 1280HD bungees on it? It sure is a sharp plane. When you get a chance, I would sure appreciate it. You can send them to my email if you prefer.
Gary

[alaskadrifter]

I'd like to put 31" BW's on it but that big of tire would increase the leverage even more.
Mike

The 31s will actually absorb way more than the 26s, so they will stress your bungees less. Most bush planes have their gear extended, to get a better aoa and prop clearance.

[stevesaircraft(Bri)]

Mike,

The only gear that would bolt up to our current setup would be Univair gear....they have the same attach points....but are not extended.
I think your best bet would be to make a set that are 3 inch extended....
I really think that the strongest setup would be to make a set of gear with a cabane V and CUB style struts like Trimmers but using the current attach points. Either way it is going to require some fabrication no matter what you do...

By the way, I agree with everyone else....that is one heck of a nice looking conversion...

Brian.

[mike c]

Thanks for the good words. We have 1080 HD's on it right now. Tryed 1280 HD's and they rubbed on the frame. I think there are one or two differant year of pacers that called for 1080's. I believe one year even calls for single 1380 per side. I dont know what year of plane this was to start with.


Mike.

[Wheelie Wayne]

Piston Can, you are correct, it is the same plane I sent you pictures of. Mike, take good care of the long prop. I am the one who sold it to Zi (actually traded it for work and condition inspection sign offs, he actually still owed me one more inspection when he passed away). Mike is correct that the builder was a super guy and and great A&P IA. If you wanted to try some heavier bungees, I have a pair of 1380HD you can have to try. If they work buy me some beer and if they don't improve things enough, don't worry about doing anything. I am in The Dalles: wayne97058@yahoo.com

[pistoncan]

Wheelie, Good to hear from you and know you are still on the forum. Havn;t heard from you for a while.

[mike c]

Wheelie, do I know you? Got home and was lookin at this stuff and saw Zi and thought wow, small world.I will take good care of that long prop and darn good care of the whole plane. There is a pair of 1380's in the hanger that Zi bought back in 97, still in the bag, not as strong as two 1080's on each side though. Do you have any idea where he got the landing gear. That being said, the dalles isnt far away, dont need the bungees but Id be into buyin a few beers to BS a bit. Ill e-mail you my cell number.

Mike.

[Stephen]

Mike, I don't see a real problem with the long gear, Brian is right that Eddie's gear PA-18 would be stronger...but, give your gear a shot. Stronger bungees will only make the gear stiffer, but I don't see how they make it stronger. I see that it already has a welded cross tube between the gear strut and the gear "V", this increases the strength of these gear. These longer legs should give you a better deck angle for shorter T.O. and landing, which adds some safety value. I would go for the long prop. Great looking plane.

[Wheelie Wayne]

Mike, Zi got the gear from Don Hall (another great mechanic that is no more). I seem to remember that Don got it from someone in southern Oregon. It may have been the guy Brian was talking about. Don had done some swapping for the gear and was planning on using them on the project I ended up buying from him but he kept the gear. I had made copies of all my V6 STOL plans for Zi and he ended up using some of the info off of them for his project. I look forward to BS-ing and sipping some good brew, I am not sure if I have met you or not. In any event we will have to fix that short coming.

[stevesaircraft(Bri)]

The only guy I know around here that could build a set of gear that would be engineered correctly would be Tim Tepper.....Tim is involved with the Sherpa guys and has developed a lot of parts for that airplane.....If he was the one to build that gear, I would leave it be and keep flying....

Brian.

[Troy Hamon]

No direct relevant experience to share...but I have some friends with big tires on tailwheel airplanes. They often put on little tailwheels to get maximum angle of attack for short-field takeoffs. With those gear, you could probably put on some big honking tailwheel and still have a very high takeoff AOA. Might be a real bonus for serious rough country work, if the gear can handle that. Random thought from my troubled mind.

[mike c]

Thanks for the advice. The only thing to slow down my flyin is the price of gas, wow. Gary , went to take a few pic's of the interior and the camera dyed, Ill get back to that. Interesting story,the day I took the pic's that are posted on here we got quite the treat. If you look at the pic. of me standing by the prop look in the back ground and you can see an open hanger door. In that hanger lives a TBM. The owner came over and said he was goin to scud run up to The Dalles to get some jet fuel an asked us if we wanted to ride along. WOW. 4 minutes from Hood River to The Dalles. I got to drive comein back, being a driver of planes that rarely see 100 mph. to go 250 knt's is humbleing to say the least.I was so far behind that plane I'd never catch up. Think I'll stay with the slow ones that I can stay ahead of.

Mike.

[bushmaster 1]

Mike thats a nice looking bushmaster. Have been doing some research on gear legs the last couple of weeks with a friend who is building one. I have a certified one with univair wide gear and they extended the ears on the hydrosorb to take 1280s. Eddie trimmer gear i was told is 3in cub gear legs which gives you 1 inch more than univair wide gear.Producer gear is based on 6 inch cub gear with the gear legs spaced out double the distance of your gear, roughly 24 inches, and stock cub gear legs are at 18 inches. Either one of these mods with such nice fabric would be some what major at this point. Your aoa at 6 in extended wide gear should still be less than a super cub with stock gear from the measurements we took last weekend from a cub frame to a 24 in extended pacer frame. What is your w-b tail weight ? most are heavy on the tail some people angle the gear back about 3 inches which is on my non certified bushmaster. i hope to weigh it next week.I think you may have the perfect length gear for short take off and landing maybe try 1280s . I beleive the gear for my freinds bushmaster will be producer style cub gear probably angled back 3 inches to get the proper tail weight and change the angle of incidence on the wing to a cub.If anybody could tell me what there tail weights are for ther busmasters it would be helpful on this build my wings are off the certified and the non has a constant speed prop on the front. What is the the proper tail weight on a super cub?

[pistoncan]

You guys are going to keep at it till you talk mike into keepin his gear legs LOL

[mike c]

Bushmaster, sitting next to me in the hanger is a new smith cub just built, or say finished last year with 3" extended cub gear. We picked up his tail to level flight flight configuration and measured 12" prop clearance , with goodyear blimp tires & 82" prop. I have 16" clearance, 26" bw's,84" prop. Also my tires center to center is 20 some inches wider than the cub.Wider frame accounts for some of that. At this point compared to the cubs around here I probably have considerably more AOA, unless they are on 31" or bigger tires. Iam definitly not scared of the gear being weak so much as the leverage on the bungees. By the way I looked up some numbers for you on the W&B sheet. 1095 lb's emty, 85 lb's tail wheel, 1750 lb's gross. Hope that helps.

Mike.