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Re: Confused about ADS B out requirement
Originally Posted by
Jeff J
91.225 is where a person needs to look to find ADS-B out requirements. There are some differences so it really isn’t feasible to say you will only need it where a transponder is currently required like it was advertised.
The two main differences are the offshore requirement above 3,000' and that the electrical system doesn't have to be engine driven. One other "minor" difference is where which equipment is required, ES vs UAT.
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1957 PA-22/20 "Super Pacer" based 1H0
Lifetime EAA member
Vintage Aircraft Association member
Lifetime EAA Chapter 32 member |
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Re: Confused about ADS B out requirement
Originally Posted by
Jeff J
91.225 is where a person needs to look to find ADS-B out requirements. There are some differences so it really isn’t feasible to say you will only need it where a transponder is currently required like it was advertised.
I read 91.225 but could not determine where the differences between transponder and ADSB were?
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Re: Confused about ADS B out requirement
Originally Posted by
Gilbert Pierce
I read 91.225 but could not determine where the differences between transponder and ADSB were?
91.215 is the transponder regulation, and 91.225 is the ADS-B regulation. Compare the two regulations side by side.
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Re: Confused about ADS B out requirement
Originally Posted by
Jim Hann
The two main differences are the offshore requirement above 3,000' and that the electrical system doesn't have to be engine driven. One other "minor" difference is where which equipment is required, ES vs UAT.
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ShortWingPipers.Org mobile app
The differences between “electrical system” in 91.225 and “engine driven electrical system” in 91.215 was resolved with the LOI that I got from FAA Chief Counsel. They both mean the same thing.
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Re: Confused about ADS B out requirement
Side by side (and in color, some of .225 didn't change to blue.) I tried to match them up as best I could, the FAA formats their rules differently now versus before computers. If you don't see two different colors in the text below I apologize.
Sec. 91.215
ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.
Sec. 91.225
Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Out equipment and use.
(a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not conducted under [part 121 or 135] of this chapter, ATC transponder equipment installed must meet the performance and environmental requirements of any class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c (Mode A with altitude reporting capability) as appropriate, or the appropriate class of
TSO-C112 (Mode S).
(a) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in Class A airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that—
- (1) Meets the performance requirements in TSO-C166b, Extended Squitter Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) and Traffic Information Service-Broadcast (TIS-B) Equipment Operating on the Radio Frequency of 1090 Megahertz (MHz); and(2) Meets the requirements of § 91.227.
(b) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft below 18,000 feet MSL and in airspace described in paragraph (d) of this section unless the aircraft has equipment installed that—
- (1) Meets the performance requirements in—
- (i) TSO-C166b; or(ii) TSO-C154c, Universal Access Transceiver (UAT) Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Equipment Operating on the Frequency of 978 MHz;
(2) Meets the requirements of § 91.227.
(c) Operators with equipment installed with an approved deviation under Sec. 21.618 of this chapter also are in compliance with this section.
(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1) through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with an operable coded radar beacon transponder having either Mode 3/A 4096 code capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code specified by ATC, or a Mode S capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code specified by ATC and intermode and Mode S interrogations in accordance with the applicable provisions specified in TSO C-112, and that aircraft is equipped with automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a Mode C capability that automatically replies to Mode C interrogations by transmitting pressure altitude information in 100-foot increments. This requirement applies--
(1) All aircraft. In Class A, Class B, and Class C airspace areas;
(2) All aircraft. In all airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
(d) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the following airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that meets the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section:
- (1) Class B and Class C airspace areas;(2) Except as provided for in paragraph (e) of this section, within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 to this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
(3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
(4) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and
(5) Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part provided such operations are conducted--
(i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area; and
(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and
(4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; and
(5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or glider----
(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and
(ii) In the airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL within a 10-nautical-mile radius of any airport listed in appendix D, section 2 of this part, excluding the airspace below 1,200 feet outside of the lateral boundaries of the surface area of the airspace designated for that airport.
(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted--
- (1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and(2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
(c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with Sec. 91.413 of this part shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC.
(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times.
(d) ATC authorized deviations. Requests for ATC authorized deviations must be made to the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the concerned airspace within the time periods specified as follows:
(1) For operation of an aircraft with an operating transponder but without operating automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a Mode C capability, the request may be made at any time.
(2) For operation of an aircraft with an inoperative transponder to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made or both, the request may be made at any time.
(3) For operation of an aircraft that is not equipped with a transponder, the request must be made at least one hour before the proposed operation.
- (g) Requests for ATC authorized deviations from the requirements of this section must be made to the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the concerned airspace within the time periods specified as follows:
- (1) For operation of an aircraft with an inoperative ADS-B Out, to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made or both, the request may be made at any time.(2) For operation of an aircraft that is not equipped with ADS-B Out, the request must be made at least 1 hour before the proposed operation.
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1957 PA-22/20 "Super Pacer" based 1H0
Lifetime EAA member
Vintage Aircraft Association member
Lifetime EAA Chapter 32 member |
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Re: Confused about ADS B out requirement
Originally Posted by
Gilbert Pierce
I read 91.225 but could not determine where the differences between transponder and ADSB were?
The airspace difference is over the Gulf of Mexico. 91.225(d)5 but I like the picture Jim posted better than reading the reg.
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Re: Confused about ADS B out requirement
Thanks for the feedback, looks like you can go under a Class C ceiling ring but not over the top. Also will be somewhat restricted on cross countries without the ADSb out equipment. I don't really understand the benefits though for low and slow VFR pilots not going into congested airspace. I read that the airlines pushed for this equipment, but to me it appears to be just another expensive requirement for general aviation. Hopefully there will be some lower cost alternatives like the Skybeacon coming through.
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Re: Confused about ADS B out requirement
Originally Posted by
Kelliots
Thanks for the feedback, looks like you can go under a Class C ceiling ring but not over the top. Also will be somewhat restricted on cross countries without the ADSb out equipment. I don't really understand the benefits though for low and slow VFR pilots not going into congested airspace. I read that the airlines pushed for this equipment, but to me it appears to be just another expensive requirement for general aviation. Hopefully there will be some lower cost alternatives like the Skybeacon coming through.
The kicker is we can fly a Cub or Vagabond in those areas but not a Clipper or Pacer. The last time I visited Memphis Approach I asked the controller why there was no 1200 squawks on the radar. He said oh we suppress them and reached over and turned them on and said we don’t worry about them as that is not controlled airspace.
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Administrator
Re: Confused about ADS B out requirement
I don't have a transponder in my Super Cub and don't go into controlled or congested airspace. I use it to get away from such things.
20180207_180425.jpg
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Re: Confused about ADS B out requirement
Guess I should put your 26x4’s on my Vag and go live on a sand bar.
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