Need help with seat please!!

[mongoose09]

Hey guys, I took a friend flying tonight(he's a big guy) and when he went to move his seat he must have pulled the lever too hard and it broke something. I'm not sure if it's a cable or pin in that plunger/handle that allows the co-pilot seat to move fore and aft but whatever it is it is now disconnected. The seat is now stuck full aft and there is no way to move it. Has anybody ever had this problem and if so what did you do? Looks like I may have to remove the upholstry to find a way to push the pin down to get the seat out. Any help or advise is appreciated.

Thanks,


Kevin

[Bruce]

There is a cotter pin that holds the unlocking arm to the plunger that locks the seat. I can change mine without removing the seat. Bruce

[JohnW]

Kevin; 'Kay, you don't say what model aircraft you have there, but it has to be a late model TriPacer or a Colt, because you say he went to move "his seat", and the only seat in the earlier models was a "bench". All the later Tripes used a kinda weird, bent like a pretzel, "actuator rod" to pull straight downwards on the seat latch pin when you reached under and lifted the knob. These later model airplanes -I believe ALL of them- used a 3/16" nut to secure the bent rod to the plunger. Earlies used either a nut, or like Bruce says, a cotter pin. Often, either the cotter got old, rusty, and "gave up the ghost" and the system disconnected itself, or other "unusual things" can cause the same effect. With the nut type retainer, the plunger rod had threads cut on a reduced diameter of the plunger, and these could rust and sometimes break, as well. Don't be too harsh with yer buddy. When they are ready to "go", they can eventually fall off in flight and you won't even know it. The seat lock "fails safe" when that happens, you just have what you got there now...a seat that will not "adjust".

If you have the seat(s) I think you do, you can reach up from underneath and glom onto whatever part of the plunger is "left" and pull straight down (perpendicular to the lock plate...which angles upwards in the front SLIGHTLY from true horizontal because the seats slide forward AND up a little when you move them from "full aft"). I recommend a small pair of Vice Grips (oooh! I just heard Gilbert shudder!) rather than "common pliers" 'cause once clamped on, they stay on. It's a little ungainly to reach around under there, blind, and there's some sharp things under there and nobody likes skinned knuckles. Then, just pull down on the pin with your right hand and (with the seat back folded up as much as you can and held with your chin (or ear), smack the rear edge of the bottom a "medium" hit with your left palm...and the seat should jump forward. Sometimes, they resist dearly any attempt at moving them forward and demand a surprising amount of "persuasion" to get moving. That's what I SUSPECT is your answer. If the plunger has outlived it's usefulness, Univair sells replacement parts, and they are very easy to replace...WITH THE SEAT OUT.

Now, there is also another "safety feature" too (or should I say..."there is SUPPOSED to be"?), with another spring loaded pin further back on the seat track that prevents the seat from sliding forward and out of the tracks because someone "hiked their hips" a little too enthusiastically. On a lot of airplanes, people have disabled or completely removed these safety lock pins. Originally, Piper installed them with a small spring-steel "tab" located right next to them so you could reach under the seat (still blind), push the safety pin "up" and with "an extra finger on that same hand", you could push the tab around on its mounting pin and "lock" the safety latch in the "retracted" position by "blocking it" from going back to the normal "extended" position. When you went to re-install the seat, you would simply "uncatch the tab from the safety latch", letting the safety catch extend and then install the seat like it wasn't even there, and it would be pushed up by the weight of the seat until you got the seat back beyond the "normal" seat-latch plate, and it would "pop out" again, and prevent the seat from sliding forward so much as to come up out of the tracks, unintentionally.

This safety latch was a pain in the keester. Some people removed them lock stock and barrel and all you will find under there is a seemingly "unused hole"; some people just left the tab holding the pin up, forever; some have rusted in the up position and the tab rusted out and fell off, and so on. SOME do still work, however and they are one hard thingie to figure out if some verbose idiot doesn't explain this to you beforehand. Now as I say, it is possible that SOMEONE either left the tab off when they reupholstered, or it may have rusted and fallen off. This makes the "safety catch" -if it is still there- a REAL "PIA" to unlatch! What you have to do then is use a 1/8" diameter flat nosed punch (or reasonable facsimile) and push the pin up manually as you slide it past the "protected area". This will take some gymnastics and more than likely a certain number of aborted attempts, and will likely frustrate you. Lemme know in PM if you accidentally invent any interesting swear-word combinations (I think I've invented all of them, by ya never know). All that said, and somebody PROBABLY went through this before you and when they DID get the seat out, there's a good chance they "killed" this safety feature. I don't recommend that...I feel it should be serviced and maintained operationally. It's a good feature (if you ain't the guy trying to remove the seat the first time!) but just imagine some guy (or chick) flopping around over backwards next to you in your airplane, kicking everything in sight, grabbing and yanking on you and creating a hellacious din ...all while you are trying to keep the airplane right side up! Sound like fun? Then just go ahead, defeat the safety catch, and some day when you have completely forgotten all about it, you might just have that Fun Experience (even though the seat is inherently difficult to slide forwards in flight, anyway). But life has a way of dealing you neat surprises. Piper didn't do things that they didn't feel were necessary, and they DID put this "safety stop" there when they built the airplane. But again, the chances are that you won't know what ta hell I'm talking about when you take your seat out...probably that "stuff" isn't there anymore. But I tell you anyway because sometimes it IS there, and it makes it impossible to take the seat out, even when you DO get the adjuster latch pulled down and the seat forward. Keep a smile on yer mug and rest assured that others have gone before you in this matter. JW

[Gilbert Pierce]

I recommend a small pair of Vice Grips (oooh! I just heard Gilbert shudder!) JW

Shudder Shudder Shudder!
Vise grips have their place-as in the above-but not anything that a proper open end, box end, allen wrench or socket etc. will fit on.
Gilbert

[mongoose09]

Thank you John. Yes, I should have mentioned that I have a 1959 Tri-Pacer. The plunger broke and retracted fully into the seat rail under the spring pressure, it took two hours the get it out. My pilot's seat still has the safety catch but the co-pilot's does not. Do you know of a source for these plungers?

[Twofieros]

mongoose,

I just went through what you are going through. The ONLY place to get a new plunger is Univair. They sell for $48 each. They only have 3 or 4 left! Before you get excited let me tell you there are two different types of plungers for the seat. There is one that is a single piece, like mine, and one that is two parts like Univair's. The two part has a threaded "bullet" that accepts a threaded shaft like a bolt with it's head shaven off and two holes drilled in the end. Then there is the single piece that has a machined bullet with a shaft extending from the bottom that ends in threads. This single piece part is superior to the one with holes. I suspect yours has the holes and that is where it failed.

I used Univair's part in my plane and was able to fashion a shaft from an old AN bolt that I then drilled holes into it. It works just like the old part. Now that I'm in the middle of restoring my Tri I plan to machine a one piece bullet to replace my current part. The threaded shaft is much stronger than the drilled shaft.

If you decide to go looking for used parts and you come across a one piece bullet please let me know. I'd love to just buy a used one rather than spend the time to make one.

Tim

[robboflyer]

Having the same issue with broken seat plunger on the right seat. Difference is the seat is still installed so I cannot get to the plunger to pull from the top, and on the bottom the piece is broken off inside the tube. The only way I see to get it out is take the upholstery off and pull it out from the top. Would that work? Am I missing an easier method ? This is a 59’ PA22/20.


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[mmoyle]

I’d bet the cotter pin failed...looks like this
And the pin to prevent the seat from sliding out of or off the track so to speak is under the clip held in place by the two number 6 Phillips screws. Pull one screw, turn the clip to the side..pull the pin with a magnet.




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[robboflyer]

Great pictures, now I can see what was being described, which helps.
I have a 5/16 inch piece that broke off the bottom end of the plunger with the cotter pin still in tack. Not sure what is up the tube to get at but I do not envision that happening with the battery box etc. blocking access. Next week I'll check on the pin and clip that prevents the seat from coming off the track with two screws in it, I have not located that yet. I am a bit confused as to how that is going to release the seat but maybe once I see it, it will make sense. Thanks

[Steve Pierce]

I would look forward with a light and see if you see what is left of the pin still installed. Without the cotter pin I would think the rest of the pin would fall out. You can usually feel the safety lock and push it to unlock.