Welcome! Becoming a registered user of ShortWingPipers.Org is free and easy! Click the "Register" link found in the upper right hand corner of this screen. It's easy and you can then join the fun posting and learning about Short Wing Pipers!

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 33

Thread: Streched Pacer Frame Question

  1. #21
    KSG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    St Charles IL
    Posts
    247
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Streched Pacer Frame Question

    Just quoting the man. Are you are implying that the document has no legal weight?

  2. #22

    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Frederick MD
    Posts
    1,947
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Streched Pacer Frame Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Aero View Post
    Its the LAW?? KGB............ KSG, you ever read the whole thing?? Its an Advisory Circular...... Its really interesting how some FSDO and DARs choose to interpret the AC20-27.............. It can be quite ambiguous concerning the use of surplus, military, previously certificated parts. I don't believe the original intent of this was kill off the likes of the stretched Pacer or the Breezy but to stop someone from just throwing together a bunch of salvaged parts and calling it an Experimental AB. That makes sense. Modifying existing designs is how airplanes have always evolved. Some inspectors are more realistic and give partial credit on the fuselage build............ There is more "educational and recreational value" in taking years dissecting and modifying an old derelict (sad) PA 20 or TP and morphing it into a totally different airplane with a totally different mission than taking two weeks off work, pulling a few rivets and flying your airplane home.
    Actually, it’s not the AC that is in question, it is Order 8130.2J. While ACs have no real weight and are only advisory, Orders are Policy that FAA Inspectors are supposed to adhere to, and Designees have to follow or risk having their designation rescinded.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  3. #23
    Southern Aero's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Gawja
    Posts
    171
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Streched Pacer Frame Question

    Again, the the 8130.2J DOES allow you to use parts of another aircraft, you just don't get credit for that PORTION. ...... It is how you choose to interpret it. If the inspector were to ask, did you build the front fuselage portion? No..... Did you build the rear portion? Yes. ............. OK, I can only give you partial credit for that ............... This would be reasonable. Or you can BUY a fuselage a fuselage from any of the manufacturers, and that's OK ........ Its just not a lot of "stretched Pacers" to choose from. If it was worth it I would take it to court but it's not to me so I now build my own fuselages COMPLETELY using the original Piper prints for reference. The up side is I get rid of a lot of tri gear structure and weight not needed.

    The "rules" need to be addressed. I don't believe the stretched Pacer or the Breezy types of airplanes were the targets but they sure got caught in the fallout.

    From the 8130.2J .........................

    f.
    Type-Certificated Aircraft. Altering, repairing, or rebuilding type-certificated aircraft constitutes maintenance of a type-certificated aircraft under part 43, not fabrication and assembly of amateur-built aircraft. This policy has been in effect since 1952 under section 1.74-3 of the Civil Aeronautics Manual (CAM) 1, which specifically states, “structural components of other aircraft may be used [for amateur-built aircraft]; however, it is not intended that this provision be used to avoid obtaining approval of major alterations to aircraft previously certificated in another category.”

    manufacturer. The builder may receive credit for tasks completed with this assistance as long as the assistance did not exceed demonstration of how to perform the task.
    (4) When Builders Use Articles from Other Aircraft. The use of used or salvaged articles, including military surplus articles, from other aircraft is permitted if they are in a condition for safe operation; however, all fabrication, installation, and assembly tasks accomplished with used or salvaged articles will be credited to the “Mfr Kit/Part/Component” column on the Amateur-Built Aircraft Fabrication and Assembly Checklist. No credit will be given toward the major-portion requirement for work on these salvaged articles. This includes any “rebuilding” or “restoring” activities to return these articles to an airworthy condition. Assembly credit may be given in those cases where used or salvaged articles are assembled with portions of the aircraft fabricated and assembled by the builder.
    (5)
    Aircraft Previously Certificated by a Foreign CAA.
    15-1

  4. #24
    KSG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    St Charles IL
    Posts
    247
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Streched Pacer Frame Question

    Southern aero, to your comments that I did not read the 51% rule I have multiple times. I am currently building a stretched pacer with many other changes. Using the form I end up over 70% owner produced. I would not start a project unless I did all the research necessary and was confident it would pass as experimental.

  5. #25
    Southern Aero's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Gawja
    Posts
    171
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Streched Pacer Frame Question

    KSG, your earlier comment seemed to imply inspectors/builders were not following the "rules"? Did I read that wrong? If you have a FSDO or DAR that will agree with how you checked off your boxes on the checklist, that's great. That's what I was saying earlier........... find someone you can work with. Around here DARs wont touch it and what feds are sympathetic ............ I know several ............wont go out on that limb......... which is my issue. Why does one region take the stance that you can't build a stretch Pacer as Ex AB and another will accept it? I asked multiple DARs years ago when the AC20-27 came out to work with me to monitor and ensure what I was doing to build the "stretch" would fulfill the 51% ruling as written. I was told that I was basically building a "static" display or exp exhibition only since I was going to use a front section from a TP. So rather than fight it I sold off the TP parts, bought an already experimental salvage and am using it to build the stretch. Since then I have developed my own fuselage that has the same lines as the stretched Pacer but build entirely from scratch using the TP prints as a reference with quite a few refinements. Ha, I was even told by one DAR I couldn't even do that! Obviously not true but shows the attitude of some around this area.

  6. #26
    KSG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    St Charles IL
    Posts
    247
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Streched Pacer Frame Question

    I have not run into anyone with such a negative attitude or lack of following the 51% rule thankfully. Fsdo has been positive, just follow the rules. Sucks that you had such a hard time.

  7. #27
    Stephen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Lopez Island, WA
    Posts
    4,140
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Streched Pacer Frame Question

    Quote Originally Posted by SClow303 View Post
    I have a stretched pacer fuselage here in my hanger. It started out as a Tri Pacer. My opinion is that it really would not matter. Most people stretching a pacer would want to put PA-18 gear under it so your going to be reworking the u set carriage anyways. I guess you would be a little ahead of the game if the front mounts were already in place. It with the way I had planned to beef mine up I would have replaced them anyway.
    I don't know if most people building a Bushmaster would choose to install SC gear. The Bmaster planes have you converting the original T Pacer gear to conventional, they look strong and it would be less expensive. Since my plane had the Univair conversion I kept the Pacer gear, it is cleaner. Experimental would be wide open, SC gear is a good choice but expensive.

    SC, time to get that plane out of your garage and in the air.
    "You can only tie the record for flying low."

  8. #28
    SClow303's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    155
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Streched Pacer Frame Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    I don't know if most people building a Bushmaster would choose to install SC gear. The Bmaster planes have you converting the original T Pacer gear to conventional, they look strong and it would be less expensive. Since my plane had the Univair conversion I kept the Pacer gear, it is cleaner. Experimental would be wide open, SC gear is a good choice but expensive.

    SC, time to get that plane out of your garage and in the air.
    Getting close! Finishing baffles tonight as I type. Cutting a new panel tomorrow morning. I have slacked on posting a lot lately but have been putting 10-12 hours a day into it. The little things take time and some days it seems like I get a ton done and others I wonder what I did all day long! I am hoping to have the engine compartment all finished this week along with the panel then start to finish the wiring. If all goes good this week I want to be hanging the wings next week.


    Sent from my iPhone using ShortWingPipers.Org mobile app

  9. #29
    Stephen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Lopez Island, WA
    Posts
    4,140
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Streched Pacer Frame Question

    Quote Originally Posted by SClow303 View Post
    Getting close! Finishing baffles tonight as I type. Cutting a new panel tomorrow morning. I have slacked on posting a lot lately but have been putting 10-12 hours a day into it. The little things take time and some days it seems like I get a ton done and others I wonder what I did all day long! I am hoping to have the engine compartment all finished this week along with the panel then start to finish the wiring. If all goes good this week I want to be hanging the wings next week.


    Sent from my iPhone using ShortWingPipers.Org mobile app
    Great to hear about your progress. Keep it up.
    "You can only tie the record for flying low."

  10. #30

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    My Moms baement
    Posts
    169
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Streched Pacer Frame Question

    I have read all the comments with interest on what can and cannot be used in a exp. amateur built. I have no dog in the hunt but I will say that I know of several "homebuilts" that were approved for an EAB certificate by DAR's that were basically colts and tri pacers with the Piper data tag missing. All subjective of course. This is less common now that in the past from my view. I have a friend looking at an EAB "Wagabond" right now that is a colt with the panel yokes removed and some vagabond style torque tubes added for the flight controls and pacer gear. That is it, its Piper other than that. I don't think these EAB certificates can fall into a builders lap as easy as they used to. I also know of an EAB Cessna 140(local to me) that other than a vanity N number and no Cessna data plate looks just like it came from wichita in the 40's. That one is mystery for sure.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •