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Thread: Sullivan vs Madras (Demmer) wing tips

  1. #11
    Administrator Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sullivan vs Madras (Demmer) wing tips

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    No, but I will. He has studied both tips and rates them high. Although, his plane is a bit different, lighter, greater angle of incidence, leading edge cuff, flaperons. Which might test differently. I've been in his Cub slow flying under 30 mph.
    I'd be interested in his comments. Always enjoy hanging out with Jerry. I always learn a lot.

  2. #12
    Stephen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sullivan vs Madras (Demmer) wing tips

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I'd be interested in his comments. Always enjoy hanging out with Jerry. I always learn a lot.
    I don't see him at Skagit Airport as much. Becky seems to be flying his Cub the most.
    "You can only tie the record for flying low."

  3. #13

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    Default Re: Sullivan vs Madras (Demmer) wing tips

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    My plane a PA 22/20 has had Madras wing tips since I purchased it in 1983 as a PA 22. I've extended the wings with the old Ferguson STC and it now has the Bushmaster STC. But, I kept the Madras (Demmer) tips. Each mod through the years has improved the planes STOL abilities. Now, I've switched to the Sullivan wing tip STC. I just installed new carbon fiber Sullivan wing tips. All I expected was that the Sullivan tips would be over 3 pounds lighter per wing, my visibility would improve and I would not bang my head on the dropped tips anymore. Today, after waiting out illness and weather I made my first test flight.

    1. My first turn I noticed that the ailerons were lighter.
    2. There was a big improvement in turns. The plane was more steady and coordinated in a turn. The Madras tips with their long droop made turns difficult to stay coordinated, I was always chasing the ball. With my new Sullivan tips the ball was much centered and my turns more easily coordinated.
    3. Cruise was unchanged, I was hoping to see some improvement without the long droop on the wing tips, no luck.
    4. The big-time improvement was a major decrease in the low speeds. When my plane was a Pacer with squared off (Ferguson STC) my plane stalled "power on" and full flaps at just under 40 mph indicated. When I did the Bushmaster STC the stall speed dropped to about 34 mph, using a gps average. Today, my first flight using my new Sullivan tips, it was stalling under 30 mph. It was so slow my AS indicator was worthless, it indicated under 20 mph. I did power on stalls in four different directions 90 degrees apart and averaged the gps stall speed to 29 mph. Apparently, the tips increased the wing surface area and added lift and significantly decreased stall speed. I am impressed, so far.

    Now, I wonder if I will be able to get anyone to purchase my Madras tips.
    Very interesting, Stephen!
    I had a PA-20 135 (stock tips) and recently moved up to a bushmaster on floats (Madras tips). The bushmaster has me appreciating how easy it was to keep the ball centered in the old pacer! I think part of it is the 2440 floats strapped on under the bushmaster -- but your review has me thinking that maybe it's the wing tips, too!
    Where does one buy the sullivan tips?

    Thanks for putting your observations up here!

  4. #14
    Stephen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sullivan vs Madras (Demmer) wing tips

    You are in luck, Ron Sullivan lives in Anchorage. Do a search on this forum. Put in Ron Sullivan. I posted his email and phone number. I had him make carbon fiber tips for me. It can take him a while. Maybe, living nearby you can get it done faster. Ron is a good guy. He has several interesting STC's.
    "You can only tie the record for flying low."

  5. #15
    Yellow Baron's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sullivan vs Madras (Demmer) wing tips

    How much is it for the new carbon fiber Sullivan wing tips? - Have you got vortex generators as well? - I am sitting with the standard wing, Demer tips and vortex generators and get to stall around the 40 mark ...

  6. #16
    Stephen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sullivan vs Madras (Demmer) wing tips

    Quote Originally Posted by Yellow Baron View Post
    How much is it for the new carbon fiber Sullivan wing tips? - Have you got vortex generators as well? - I am sitting with the standard wing, Demer tips and vortex generators and get to stall around the 40 mark ...
    Carbon tips are a lot more expensive than fiberglass. I paid over $1500 including shipping to Washington State. The Demmer tip STC required removal of the cap strips, which shortened the wing span. This was unfortunate. If you purchase the Sullivan STC you can add back the full wing span plus the width of the new tips. It is a lot of work and requires using the Piper approved spar slice. I know because I did a few years back. But, you will have a much improved airplane, especially at lower speeds. Remember, my current stall speed numbers are on my Bushmaster STC (which I did last year) and may not be the same on a more standard Pacer.

    Regarding stall speeds I wouldn't believe the airspeed indicator, especially at low speeds. Use GPS, in four directions and average your gs.

    Ron Sullivan's phone number and email have been posted here a couple of times, you should contact him. Just know he works at his own pace.....slow.
    Last edited by Stephen; 01-10-2019 at 04:01 AM.
    "You can only tie the record for flying low."

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Sullivan vs Madras (Demmer) wing tips

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Carbon tips are a lot more expensive than fiberglass. I paid over $1500 including shipping to Washington State. The Demmer tip STC required removal of the cap strips, which shortened the wing span. This was unfortunate. If you purchase the Sullivan STC you can add back the full wing span plus the width of the new tips. It is a lot of work and requires using the Piper approved spar slice. I know because I did a few years back. But, you will have a much improved airplane, especially at lower speeds. Remember, my current stall speed numbers are on my Bushmaster STC (which I did last year) and may not be the same on a more standard Pacer.

    Regarding stall speeds I wouldn't believe the airspeed indicator, especially at low speeds. Use GPS, in four directions and average your gs.

    Ron Sullivan's phone number and email have been posted here a couple of times, you should contact him. Just know he works at his own pace.....slow.
    Thx ... I 'd hate to see what shipping to South Africa would set me back ... just to fly a bit slower. I was quite happy with the performance improvement from the vortex.
    New tips might have to wait till after the ADS-B upgrade I am facing ...

  8. #18
    Stephen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sullivan vs Madras (Demmer) wing tips

    Quote Originally Posted by Yellow Baron View Post
    Thx ... I 'd hate to see what shipping to South Africa would set me back ... just to fly a bit slower. I was quite happy with the performance improvement from the vortex.
    New tips might have to wait till after the ADS-B upgrade I am facing ...
    That makes sense. Plus, to get the full advantage of the tips you would want to extend the spar back out to its full length. And, that's not a small task.
    "You can only tie the record for flying low."

  9. #19
    Stephen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sullivan vs Madras (Demmer) wing tips

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I'd be interested in his comments. Always enjoy hanging out with Jerry. I always learn a lot.
    I contacted Jerry Burr about my results. Jerry has done more testing on STOL mods for his J3 than anyone I know. He agreed that getting rid of the dropped tips would reduce my adverse yaw. He also agreed with my assessment that the Sullivan tips significantly increased wing surface area (10 sq. ft.) made the difference in the decreased stall speed. His tests showed both tips worked well on his plane. He said this the Demmer was slightly better in ground effect which is important in competition. His plane is about 400 pounds lighter than mine so, results might vary.

    After doing more stall tests using average ground speed in four different directions my stall speed is 30 mph or slightly under. ASI shows zero. Keep in mind my wing span is 37' 2", results will vary for different wings. I love the reduction in adverse yaw.

    Now, I'm wondering if moving my pilot tube to the front of the wing will make for more accurate readings.
    Last edited by Stephen; 01-13-2019 at 07:58 PM.
    "You can only tie the record for flying low."

  10. #20
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sullivan vs Madras (Demmer) wing tips

    I'm new to this site. I have read you built, very nice work.

    I was looking to buy some wing tips for my super cub type wings. Your numbers are impressive and tempting.

    I was also looking at the BackCountry supercubs. Have you consider them??
    edit: Just realized your plane might not be experimental...

    Thanks for sharing
    Last edited by Olibuilt; Yesterday at 09:07 AM.

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