Welcome! Becoming a registered user of ShortWingPipers.Org is free and easy! Click the "Register" link found in the upper right hand corner of this screen. It's easy and you can then join the fun posting and learning about Short Wing Pipers!

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 21

Thread: When is my annual due?

  1. #1
    smcnutt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    711

    Default When is my annual due?

    This is just an academic question since I have to get my annual done now but I was curious as to how this would technically work out.

    Last year we did our first annual. The log book entry was dated 2/24 and said the annual inspection was performed but the airplane was found to be un-airworthy due to a missing airworthiness certificate. The physical certificate was missing and we had to get a new one from the FISDO and it took a while. Anyway, the next entry was dated 3/11 indicating that we now had the airworthiness certificate and the plane is now legal.

    My question is, is the date of the annual 2/24 when he entered into my log book he performed the inspection or is it 3/11 when he entered the plane passed the inspection and was no legal to fly? If the time-lag between the two dates was greater than a couple of weeks this could be more of a significant concern but in my case it simply a curiosity as to when exactly my annual is due this year.
    Light travels faster than sound.
    That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    900

    Default Re: When is my annual due?

    An Annual Inspection is an Annual Inspection, whether the aircraft is airworthy or not. This is THE reason that your IA COMPLETES the Annual even if he finds a major problem with the aircraft! While MOST IAs would definitely consider deferring the signoff until the aircraft IS airworthy, he is not required to "believe" you will fix it in a timely manner otherwise, and if there were a "meaningful" time before the discrepancy(ies) were fixed (technically MAKING the aircraft now "airworthy" per the "last Annual -BTW, you no longer need an IA to make the aircraft airworthy for issues found AT the Annual. An A&P is all you need to sign off maintenance required! That makes the aircraft "airworthy" again as long as the last Annual is still in effect, same as if you needed a cylinder ten months after an Annual) there may be a re-inspection required. Technically, the inspection clock starts ticking when the logs are signed off for that Inspection.

    ANYTHING can happen after the logs are signed...hangar rash, parts stolen, et c. So, under the simplest of "your" listed conditions (that is, if the IA does NOT feel comfortable waiting to sign off this Annual), the next Annual would be due the LAST DAY of the calendar month in which the previous Annual was performed, or in this case...the LAST DAY of February, next year. NOT when the discrepancy(ies) is (are) cleared.

    An Annual is good for TWELVE CALENDAR MONTHS after it was performed (the last step of which is the logbook entry) no matter WHAT day of the month it was completed. The IA "gets credit" for an Annual, even if the aircraft "fails", when he signs off having performed it. The difference is the signoff itself. If it states "...found to be in an airworthy condition", then it is; if it states "...and a list of discrepancies was given to the Owner." then it is NOT since the "return to service" statement will not be present. But the Annual is "done".

  3. #3
    smcnutt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    711

    Default Re: When is my annual due?

    That's kind of what I was thinking. Especially since the 2/24 log entry had the words "Annual inspection" but the 3/11 got me thinking and that's always trouble.

    Either way, time for another annual. I just hope it goes quietly but you just can never be sure until it's over.
    Light travels faster than sound.
    That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    900

    Default Re: When is my annual due?

    I used to try thinking. Then I got my IA, and the FAA straightened me out on THAT foolish way of presenting myself, right away!!! THEY do all the thinkin' around here (and they're not happy until I'm not happy!").

  5. #5
    smcnutt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    711

    Default Re: When is my annual due?

    Quote Originally Posted by smcnutt
    ...got me thinking and that's always trouble.
    See my sig line for an explanation.
    Light travels faster than sound.
    That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

  6. #6
    Stephen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Lopez Island, WA
    Posts
    2,013

    Default Re: When is my annual due?

    John, thanks once again for your perspective. I've had to deal with this issue myself in the past.
    "You can only tie the record for flying low."

  7. #7
    Glen Geller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Beaverton, Oregon, United States
    Posts
    354

    Default Re: When is my annual due?

    There's another more important reason why the IA signed off the inspection with the missing documents: When he signs, he gets paid.
    Glen Geller
    1955 PA22-150 "One For Papa!"

  8. #8
    smcnutt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    711

    Default Re: When is my annual due?

    I tend to agree with what you're saying. However, I have two local IA's (the one who did the last annual & the one doing this annual) tell me that the date it became airworthy (3/11) is when the clock starts ticking on the annual. :? It's frustrating getting conflicting answers from the experts when you're asking a question.

    I know I need an annual and I'm getting it scheduled. Just can't be sure if I'm legal (more importantly insured) to fly until it gets done. The weather may just make that decision for me.
    Light travels faster than sound.
    That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    900

    Default Re: When is my annual due?

    Well. They are wrong, and there is not one iota of a chance that I am, in this matter. So what you are saying is that they are telling you that if you took THREE MONTHS to "make it airworthy" after a discrepancy was found on an Inspection, that you wouldn't need to have another Annual done until twelve calendar months after it was repaired, EVEN IF the Inspection was signed off in February!!!???!!! So... If the Annual Inspection turned up bad fabric and it took two and a half years before it flew again, it wouldn't need an Annual until a year after it was "fixed"??? No, I don't think you would claim that! Then, what's the "cutoff point" where you would have to have another Annual done??? Right. Last day of February the following year, in this case. One calendar year after the Annual Inspection, when it was last Inspected...whether it was found "airworthy" at that time, or not... The clock runs on the Inspection, whether the aircraft was airworthy during that time, or not.

    Now if YOU misunderstand what they are implying -that "as the IA", THEY would wait to sign off the Annual until the discrep was cleared (March in this case) then that is a WHOLE DIFFERENT MATTER, because WHEN the next Annual is due is predicated on when the IA signs off the Inspection. The ONLY WAY it would be "later than February (in this case) is if the Inspection WASN'T SIGNED OFF until a later date (like...March... after the previous Inspection had dropped dead).

    Fact remains: The next Annual is due 12 calendar months after the "last Annual" was completed. The last step in the Annual Inspection is when the Person Authorized to Return the aircraft to service (the IA) signs off having completed it (the inspection), NOT after maintenance was done. Making a repair that requires a signoff of its own does not "begin the clock" on an Annual that did not find the aircraft airworthy. Hoever, Inspecting it does. The time runs on the INSPECTION, not on the repair. THAT is the key, and if you are just trying to "spool me up", you have succeeded. I'd bet my life on this -and yours. Your other acquaintances are wrong, and I hope they aren't involved in aircraft maintenance if what you are saying they believe is correct. An aircraft Inspection does not REQUIRE that maintenance "shall be done to return the aircraft to service". It just doesn't...it requires that the aircraft be INSPECTED... and it is an INSPECTION and nothing more. Unless the Return To Service STATEMENT is included in the signoff for the inspection, the Inspection is complete AND THE AIRCRAFT MAY BE IN ANNUAL AND NOT BE AIRWORTHY. But the clock does not freeze until it IS airworthy again. It starts running before the ink is dry on the signoff and NOTHING stops it until the last day of the twelfth month after it was signed. That is no different than "losing a cylinder" 10 months after an Annual... the time on the Annual Inspection Requirement continues, but the aircraft is not airworthy until the required maintenance has been performed (the last step of which is ALSO the signoff for that work). Certainly you wouldn't think that if the aircraft was "down" for 30 days before the cylinder was replaced, that the Annual is "deferred" from the upcoming require for Annual inspection due to that month you "couldn't use it"???

    What you originally SAID was that the last Annual was in Feb "but the airplane was found to be un-airworthy due to a missing airworthiness certificate." Doesn't matter that the Annual Inspection was performed and the discrepancy that the a/c was not airworthy becaise it had a missing AW Cert...the Inspection was still done, and the next inspection became due (OVERdue, actually) on the last day of Feb the following year. It's "tough tittie" that the aircraft couldn't be flown because it didn't have that piece of paper. But the Inspection was DONE. It wasn't legally an "airplane", but the Inspection was done. Correcting the discrepancy may have taken "time', but if it was "REissued", then it have never lapsed and the pile of nuts and bolts WAS an airplane! If it was a "New Issue", then it WASN'T an airplane when ut was Inspected and it would become an airplane again when a new AW Cert was issued. THEN the a/c would have required it's next Annual Inspection 12 calendar months after the new AW was issued. That is THE ONLY way the next inspection would be due after the Feb following the year the LAT inspection was signed off.

    PERIOD.

  10. #10
    smcnutt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    711

    Default Re: When is my annual due?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW
    Well. They are wrong, and there is not one iota of a chance that I am, in this matter. Like I said, I agree with YOU. I'm just frustrated that a person can get a wrong answer from an IA (actually, two of them) on something like this.

    So... If the Annual Inspection turned up bad fabric and it took two and a half years before it flew again, it wouldn't need an Annual until a year after it was "fixed"??? Wouldn't that mean it failed the annual? However, I guess mine 'failed' as well (or passed with an exception) but I do understand your point and agree with what you're saying


    Now if YOU misunderstand what they are implying -that "as the IA", THEY would wait to sign off the Annual until the discrep was cleared (March in this case) then that is a WHOLE DIFFERENT MATTER, because WHEN the next Annual is due is predicated on when the IA signs off the Inspection. The ONLY WAY it would be "later than February (in this case) is if the Inspection WASN'T SIGNED OFF until a later date (like...March... after the previous Inspection had dropped dead). Nope, the log entry dated in February states "Annual performed...discrepancies found" so THAT is the date of the annual. See, I'm agreeing with you here. March entry states "Received airworthiness cert...aircraft airworthy.", not 'annual completed'.

    ...and if you are just trying to "spool me up", you have succeeded. I'd bet my life on this -and yours. Didn't mean to 'Spool you up'.

    Your other acquaintances are wrong, and I hope they aren't involved in aircraft maintenance if what you are saying they believe is correct. They are IA's and the only thing I can say in their defense is that my plane partner is the one that asked them the question. Maybe he phrased it in the wrong way -or to get the answer he was looking for- so they didn't truly understand the question he was asking.

    PERIOD.
    Bottom line.....annual is on the way. Thanks for your input.
    Light travels faster than sound.
    That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •