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Thread: right of way question

  1. #1

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    Default right of way question

    I have a question. At my home field ( KHAO) , the runways are 29 / 11. Runway 29 has the ILS. If I am already established in the pattern ( downwind for 11 with the winds 100 at 6 ) and someone announces they are final on the ILS, who has the proverbial right of way ?
    Yesterday, I had my CFI with me ( I am waiting for my medical to come through ) and were were doing some BFR practice. I had just announced entering downwind for 11 when a Cessna announced he was inbound on the ILS. I immediately asked his position, full stop or no, and he stated".. about 4 miles out low approach only." I told him my position and he responded with " Tripacer I wil sidestep to the right, no problem". Just after I acknowledged that, I heard " North American B-25 over the marker inbound on the ILS." I responded with "North American, Tripacer 1-2 papa is NOW turning base for runway 11". No response. A very short time later, I then emphatically replied " North American 1-2 papa is on SHORT FINAL for 11 ". Off in the distance ( my guess a half- mile or so off the end of 29- tops ) he was down and dirty -- flaps and gear down and headed my way. Quite the imposing sight. I touched down and I went hard on the brakes and made the turnoff. He went around but did not land. We really did not any any closer that a half-mile or so -- but a half-mile is too close for me.
    So, in situations like these, who has the right to the runway ? Please remember that I am not one to "argue" this point **in flight** -- just on the ground -- because my dad taught me ( more like DRILLED it into my young know-it-all head ) that in cases like these there would be NO winners -- just grieveing family members should something terrible happen.
    This kind of thing has happened to me before, but only when the prevailing winds favored 29. So . I would just politely announce my position and extend my downwind to avoid ANY possible conflict -- no big deal to me, but not like this when the winds definitely favored the opposing runway.
    Thank you guys in advance. My instructor gave me her answer , but I am curious as to yu'uns's input.
    Johnnie

  2. #2

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    Default Re: right of way question

    Well, An uncontrolled field is just that- Uncontrolled. AIM will support always taking-off and landing into the wind and flying a standard pattern over ANY straight in VFR conditions. So, first come -first served - as long as it is safe to do so. However, the right of way can only be yeilded to - not a right - so if you like to fly - when in doubt go around. I fly tailwheel airplanes - if the wind is enough to move the sock - I will go into the wind. I also strongly support flying a standard or published pattern - and feel straight ins -even ILS practice- should always be "traffic permitting" That's my 2 cents. thanks.

  3. #3
    Administrator Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Default Re: right of way question

    I asked an instructor friend this question when this Malibu was on IFR approach to runway 21 and the J3 with no radio was on final to 18 which was into the wind. VFR prevails, IFR is supposed to clear minimums and fly standard pattern.

  4. #4
    Kurts's Avatar
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    Default Re: right of way question

    However, courtesy would dictate that if radio communication is established between aircraft in the pattern and an aircraft practicing an approach, that the aircraft on the approach ask if the other aircraft coud extend their patterns so the approach can be taken to minimums. Practicing approaches to minimums is essential for an IFR student and sometimes it isn't practical or possible to find IFR conditions or a different airport with that type of approach. Taking approaches to pattern altitude defets the purpose of practicing approaches.

    I've never been turned down when making this request. VFR and IFR aircraft just need a little common courtesy and mutual cooperation and everything goes smoothly.

    Kurt
    63' Colt

  5. #5
    Administrator Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Default Re: right of way question

    I agree about common courtesy. I get tired of the IFR students calling an approach because I am not familiar with the approaches and do not know where they are.

  6. #6
    Throttle Pusher's Avatar
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    Default Re: right of way question

    I agree hole hartidly,But the FARAIM supports just about any entry as long as you make your pattern turns in the published direction(left only if not published).
    And all traffic no matter who you are on a uncontrolled airport is (traffic permitting). So keep talking, listen, keep your head on a swivel, and be courteous.


    Ken

  7. #7

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    Default Re: right of way question

    the last paragraph of 91.113 is most relevant and is posted below.

    an aircraft on an ILS is on final. a practice ILS takes a lot of time to set up and execute.

    the aim is considered non-regulatory so therefore you can't argue that complying with aim relieves you of complying with FARs.

    The B-25 did not appear to be inconvenienced in this situation.

    The malibu was probably in a better position to see and avoid the J3 even if the malibu was on final first.

    when on base look both ways like you were crossing the street, before turning final.

    Each PIC determines his/her landing runway based on wind, weather, aircraft capability, other traffic and convenience.

    Don't shoot the messenger!

    Jeff

    § 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

    (a) Inapplicability. This section does not apply to the operation of an aircraft on water.

    (b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear.

    (c) In distress. An aircraft in distress has the right-of-way over all other air traffic.

    (d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way. If the aircraft are of different categories—

    (1) A balloon has the right-of-way over any other category of aircraft;

    (2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, powered parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.

    (3) An airship has the right-of-way over a powered parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.

    However, an aircraft towing or refueling other aircraft has the right-of-way over all other engine-driven aircraft.

    (e) Approaching head-on. When aircraft are approaching each other head-on, or nearly so, each pilot of each aircraft shall alter course to the right.

    (f) Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.

    (g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

  8. #8
    Kurts's Avatar
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    Default Re: right of way question

    Agreed! A little "five mile final, practice ILS 29, traffic permitting" or something like that, goes a long way!
    63' Colt

  9. #9
    BrettL's Avatar
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    Default Re: right of way question

    Jeff,

    I think the last sentence of paragraph (b) is very significant, although I've never seen any definition of "well clear" published. What I believe, and what I've taught, is that remaining well clear of another aircraft means never putting yourself in a position that potentially requires that other aircraft to take ANY action in order to avoid you (and generally a minimum of 1/2 mile separation). Of course this means that "well clear" is somewhat of a judgement call. I do believe it is appropriate to turn final and land ahead of an aircraft on a long final approach, only if you can remain well clear of it. I find that approaches to opposite ends of the same pavement make the judgement of "well clear" more difficult to determine.

  10. #10
    BrettL's Avatar
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    Default Re: right of way question

    Quote Originally Posted by Throttle Pusher View Post
    But the FARAIM supports just about any entry as long as you make your pattern turns in the published direction(left only if not published). And all traffic no matter who you are on a uncontrolled airport is (traffic permitting).
    This is true, but only for fixed wing traffic.

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