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Thread: Torque Values for intake and exhaust nuts...bolts ???

  1. #21
    Administrator Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Torque Values for intake and exhaust nuts...bolts ???

    Sorry I was late to the party. Looks like while I was hosting a seminar with 50 plus people things got a little heated. I have not found a current torque value for the exhaust nuts in any current publication from either Piper or Lycoming. The best thing I have found was in the Jan 1973 Table of Limits that has been superseded which gave a value of 160-180 in-lbs. Page 56 of this page. http://www.7ts0.com/manuals/lycoming/ssp-2070-3.pdf Not sure why the stud value got brought up but it confused me at first while I quickly scanned through the posts. 96 in-lbs. on the 1/4" intake bolts.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Torque Values for intake and exhaust nuts...bolts ???

    Curly , well put.


    Quote Originally Posted by Curly View Post
    I have calmly and carefully read this whole sad story and if I were in JW's shoes, I would have reacted in a similar way - except my replies would have been peppered with a few "Aussie" expressions that would have probably got filtered out! We all know that JW can be a bit of a grumpy old bastard at times but his heart is always in the right place.

    He is generous with his experience and advice and always gives more of his expertise than is asked for - and it's always good information. And yes, JW does appear to sometimes talk down to us - but I for one am happy to accept that he knows a ****load more than I do and I will absorb the information however it is delivered. That's just the way he is!

    Let's look at specifics:
    "The torque values you seek are in Section V of the Lycoming Direct Drive Overhaul Manual (P.N 60294-7 in Service Table Of Limits Part 1 Section V)"
    "The brass exhaust nuts on the A and C Series Continentals cannot be tightened to standard torques because you will strip them."
    "pa20 "I am going to go out on a limb here, but I believe all this discussion is not answering the original poster's question."

    Sorry - did I miss something - he gave the reference for Mark (who should have the relevent manuals if he is working on an engine) and answered Brett's question as well. He also gave the reasons for the low torque value on the studs.

    "Spoke with Don Freeman of Aircraft Engines inc. today, he said the min 40 inch lb torque is for the STUDS. Std values of 96 in lb for 1/4" or 204 in lb for 5/16 nuts or bolts should be used for intake and exhaust flange torques."

    "Looks like we got the correct info out there for our members. Thanks guys."

    Aarh! - so Mark - are we to assume that Don Freeman's advice is correct and JW's is not, because that is the inference from your comment! I and many others would have reacted to that snide remark in the same way .

    You obviously have a personal problem with JW and while you have apologised in advance, I would have preferred that you kept you opinions and comments to yourself.
    This website is supposed to be fun and I for one will not stand idly by and watch it degenerate into a carbon copy of the Short Wing Piper Club website of the past!

    I would suggest everyone take a long cold shower - hopefully JW will cool down and return to the fold. If he does not we will know where the blame lies.

    "Progress is our most important problem"

  3. #23
    Administrator Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Torque Values for intake and exhaust nuts...bolts ???

    I believe the question was about exhaust nut and intake bolt torque on an O-320. Stud torque and Continental brass nuts don't seem to apply to the question asked. Name calling and personal attacks are not acceptable in my book. Looks like we are going to draw a line in the sand and pick sides. Sorry to see things come to this. JohnW has done this time and time again and it has become acceptable to some because of all the other information that he posts. I have had many PMs about this with John as well as with the people he has flamed. Personally I am tired of it and think it is uncalled for. If I post something that someone does not agree with or is not correct I hope I am open minded enough to accept their opinion and move on and not feel like I have to retaliate. The way I see this forum work is through people helping each other. If we were all sitting around the camp fire discussing this topic the discussion would be a lot different.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Torque Values for intake and exhaust nuts...bolts ???

    Amen to this, Steve. Fortunately, this is a rare occurrence on SWPO. I would put forth a suggestion that the moderators delete the irrelevant posts (inclusive of mine), leaving the correct information up for posterity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I believe the question was about exhaust nut and intake bolt torque on an O-320. Stud torque and Continental brass nuts don't seem to apply to the question asked. .............Personally I am tired of it and think it is uncalled for. If I post something that someone does not agree with or is not correct I hope I am open minded enough to accept their opinion and move on and not feel like I have to retaliate. The way I see this forum work is through people helping each other. If we were all sitting around the camp fire discussing this topic the discussion would be a lot different.
    Last edited by pa20; 02-24-2012 at 04:35 PM.
    Mark Ohlau
    PA-20 N7744K 2023 Donation Paid

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    Default Re: Torque Values for intake and exhaust nuts...bolts ???

    Excellent idea - let's get back to having fun!

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Torque Values for intake and exhaust nuts...bolts ???

    Hi all
    This is what I was taught when i worked in 2 engine shops- total time was about 12 years and I learned from some very knowledgable people.
    so this is where i'm coming from...... it may not be technically correct as to torque values. But......

    when i was first put in the assembly area, i was torquing EVERyTHING as to not screw up. my foreman came over with a smile on his face and asked me what I was doing. told him I wanted to make sure everthing was tickety boo. he then proceeded to show me that bolts and nuts with LOCK washers never torque properly. He had me torque the bolts on a rear case of an engine( think it was a 320) wait about 30 minutes and recheck the torque. It wasn't correct!!
    they were loose and had to be retorqued.
    So what I was taught ( as John W said) use a 1/4 drive socket and rachet-NOTHING ELSE- and tighten the bolt or nut until the lock washer is crushed- do not over tighten!!!
    so for the next 500 engines or so that is what i did- never had a problem- even saw some of the same engines twice....
    Lycoming intake bolts and exhaust nuts should incorporate internal lock washers on assembly

    hope this makes sense and i didn't stir the pot to much in this rather heated discussion.

    looking outside at the beginning of 22 cm (10 inches) of snow- gonna go have a beer

    cheers

    Shane

  7. #27

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    Default Re: Torque Values for intake and exhaust nuts...bolts ???

    "looking outside at the beginning of 22 cm (10 inches) of snow- gonna go have a beer"

    Shane - I am also going to have a beer but for the opposite reason. It's presently 38C (100F) and blowing it's guts out from the North - and dry as a lime burners boot! Perfect conditions for bushfires so it will only be a light beer just in case.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Torque Values for intake and exhaust nuts...bolts ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Continental brass nuts don't seem to apply to the question asked.
    Steve,

    Just to be sure the record is straight, I asked about torque for the Continental (brass) exhaust nuts (for the A65 on the Vagabond) in post #2 as I thought it was a close parallel to the question posted for the Lycoming exhaust nuts and didn't demand its own thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    The brass exhaust nuts on the A and C Series Continentals cannot be tightened to standard torques because you will strip them. Over tightening those will result is "loose" exhaust nuts after only a couple of heat/cool cycles. Using a Snap-On flex drive socket and a short 1/4" ratchet, you tighten those
    "as tight as you can get them with that little wrench" and you don't use a Cheater Pipe, and you don't strain your wrist. Same deal...when they get hot, the flange "grows" and they get plenty tight. If your flanges don't meet squarely on the port faces, you will NEVER stop blowing gaskets until the flanges fit squarely no matter HOW tight you force them with brass nuts. "Double gaskets" is NOT the answer (although it does work in some cases, but when the job is done correctly the first time, you will not blow gaskets repeatedly, you will not shear nuts and you will not "back out" or shear of the studs.
    So what JohnW said here was in response to my question, and I appreciate the thoughts, opinion, and experience he shared in this paragraph of his response. I could say more, but I'll just say that the attitude that is pretty much fully revealed in post #12 is one I've found irritating and unproductive toward good discussions in this forum. I appreciate the experience JohnW shares even when I don't necessarily agree with it, but I don't appreciate the attitude that often comes with or follows it.

    Brett



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    Default Re: Torque Values for intake and exhaust nuts...bolts ???

    Brett, I missed your question. I apologize. I think we all appreciate everyone's participation on this website. Everyone, no matter their experience, brings something to the table. We just finished our 7th annual restoration seminar here and it never ceases to amaze me what I learn and from whom. This is not the first thread that has taken this type of turn. I have read it over and over again trying to see what precipitated this. Obviously people interpreted things in different ways and I am sure that previous encounters between the parties involved have something to do with the reactions. What ever the reason, the outcome is the same and it does not do anything to promote participation by anyone. The reason this forum works so well is because of everyone's participation, not one or two or even and handful. Each of us give and take, some more than others and for different reasons. Luckily we can all gain from it, however, posts like the ones in this thread deter more than they help. I gotta remember what my Mom always said growing up, "If you don't have anything good to say then don't say anything at all."

  10. #30
    Homer Landreth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Torque Values for intake and exhaust nuts...bolts ???

    The more things change, the more they stay the same. Look into these exchanges, and you will see a common thread from the same issues of years ago that resulted in the divorce of many from the SWPC. John was flamed here a few posts ago with a snotty comment that asked if he was just repeating something or did he really know what he was talking about. I was amazed that John didn't come back on that, I privately thought that he must be getting soft these days. However all Hell broke loose when John indicated in another post that the asking of a question by a poster indicated, in and of itself that the posting person was probably into something that he probably was not qualified to be doing. That brought me back to some not so fond memories of the past where I got flamed for constantly bringing up that the installation of avionics transmitters by unlicensed persons was Illegal in the eyes of the FCC and not the FAA. The bottom line and common thread to both of these situations was that someone posting a question wanted to hear only the simplicity of his question and did not want to be told in a reply anything he didn't want to hear. So, here is the an potential solution to that problem; Don't come off in your question that you are a top notch expert and know all about what you are doing and then ask a question that clearly indicates that you are not. (Example from my memory: (We are finishing installing a transponder in my Pacer, can we put the antenna on the top of the wing?). John's response to a person who did not know what the torque values were or where to look for them was valid, basically he was inputting that if you don't know that you might be better off having some help beyond the answer to your specific question. I personally would feel really remiss if I gave someone a simple answer to his question about an avionics installation and did not continue by informing him that if he continued the installation and activation himself, then upon first transmission, he was flirting with the possibility of a $10,000.00 fine not from the FAA, but from the FCC. Why would anyone not want to know that ? Anyway, Steve recently flamed me for posting a procedure for a short field takeoff that he sarcasticly referred to as "the FAA published procedure", I considered that quite insulting in that it did not consider that somewhere in my 40 years of being an FAA Gold Seal Flight Instructor, that I had evaluated and taught the procedure because I believed in it and I was not just parroting something written by someone else. That was the very attitude the person who flamed John recently about whether he was just parroting someone else or did he know what he was talking about. So, a potential solution to that issue would be; Everyone participating in this Forum use the personal information feature of this Forum to post his professional licenses, aircraft maintenance experiences, any aviation business afilliation, and maybe a paragraph of a "Mini Resume" describing personal experience in aviation and maybe a statement of his "comfort zone" in Forum subject matter. That way we would all know who we are talking to and what the knowledge basis is from which he is answering questions. I think something else that would be helpful would be to also have a technical comittee of volunteers from those of us who have I/A designations that would be willing to field a question that appears to be heading off into uncharted results, and answer that question in a "From the Technical Committee" response. This response would answer the question but cover all issues from regulatory to practical approaches to whatever and be coming from a consortium of Inspectors who would all review the response before it got posted. Just to show that I will put my money where my mouth is, I will be the first to volunteer for this committee. Anyway, I am done, as Forrest Gump said "Thats all I got to say about that".

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