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Thread: right of way question

  1. #21

    Default Re: right of way question

    Quote Originally Posted by BrettL View Post
    I find it interesting that their FAA approved ops manual would specifically direct them to use a phrase that the AIM states "should not be used under any condition."
    AIM did not come out against the phrase until the 2006 edition. By then, the damage was done.

  2. #22

    Default Re: right of way question

    First of all, I can't believe you (and your CFI let you) went ahead and landed in that situation. "Your ego is writing checks your body can't cash." comes to mind. IMHO, you were the one pushing the situation to the point of discomfort. It was much easier for you to do a 360 on final or extend to allow the B25 to land and clear vs. expecting him to clean up from gear down/full flaps and go around. You have the more maneuverable airplane at that point and the more altitude. I think 91.113(g) clearly answers the original question of who has the right of way. In this case, the B25. He was on final and at the lower altitude. Yes, he was discourteous. No, he did not communicate well or follow guidance of AIM. Doesn't matter; it's an uncontrolled airport. If you think about what the FAA inspector would be asking the pilots involved in the 'incident', if it had come to that, who do you think he would be pointing the finger at, based on his only guideline--the FARs?
    If I had been your CFI, or you for that matter, I would have had a friendly chat with the B25 pilot over a Coke at the FBO, find out what he was thinking and ask him about how he normally flies at uncontrolled airports. Being confrontational would not have yielded any satisfaction from either side of this.

    It is very frustrating to be 'established in the pattern' doing T&Gs, and have some FLIB enter the pattern and land on a different runway than what you are using. Been there many times. The most frequent abusers where I used to instruct were the commuter airliners driving in on their long finals. It didn't matter how upset I got over the radio or on the ground, looking at the regs, I had no valid legal basis to stand on. Safety is another question. Bottom line is always 'See and Avoid' and communicate, communicate, communicate!

  3. #23

    Default Re: right of way question

    What was the weather at the time. If you were VFR, then it is a guessing game. Hence the name VFR. If the wx was at or close to IFR for the field, then Part 91 cloud seperation should take care of the situation. Circling minimums could prevent the ILS aircraft from landing into the wind. If all else fails, the person on final approach always has the right of way!!! If you turn in front of an aircraft on final from either direction, you are pushing your luck,personally and legaly. That being said, 2 way communication and cooperation trumps any FAR from a safety standpoint. Clear as mud now isn't it.

    Steve

  4. #24

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Live in Clermont County, Ohio
    Posts
    249

    Default Re: right of way question

    With so many a/c in the pattern area , I think doing a 360 on final might have been worse. I might have got in someone else's way, instead of just the pilot that was landing downwind and in the opposite direction of every one else. My patterns are very tight from force of habit. I rarely have to add power and most often they are power off abeam the numbers ( unless it's really cold outside -- I was told I might $hock-cool my cylinder$ ) . When I turned final it was a *really* short final with full flap. I really didn't see him until I was in the flare. I do agree that the b25 is much less maneuverable than me, but I also had someone behind me. Didn't know where he was going to go. If I went around, was he going to overtake me ? I didn't want to run into him avoiding someone else. If I went around, I would sidestep to the right and climb , and possibly right up and into the a/c behind me. This particular situation, in my opinion anyway, really had no "perfect solution", other than everybody needed to be on the same page so to speak. Lesson learned.
    Whe weather was clear/hazy with about a 7 mile vis. Since I am not IFR rated, I am not ( or should say WAS not ) familiar with the " marker(s)" at my home field. I know where they are now. ( another lesson learned ) I think if I had heard and approximation of "miles from runway xx" a little sooner , I would have broken off the whole danged approach from the beginning and let whoever run into whomever else instead of me being in any fracas.

  5. #25

    Default Re: right of way question

    Bigjohnnie, Sorry, man, but I must have missed it or you didn't say in your original post that there was other traffic in the pattern behind you. That does make the situation much stickier to execute a safe solution and not create additional problems. My solution would not have worked well in this scenario especially since you didn't get a visual on the traffic until short final. The go around even if you offset your upwind would have put you in jeopardy with the other aircraft making the practice ILS that was already going to sidestep to avoid your next takeoff. Hmmm....maybe if you went around making an immediate crosswind to re-enter downwind behind your following traffic? Sounds like he was talking and you had an idea of his position. He still would have been at or near pattern altitude so you both would have had time to make a visual with each other and work yourself back into the downwind. The practice approach airplane would have still been far enough out and high enough to make a safe choice about what to do. Great thing to hangar-talk about, though! Glad you brought it up. I'll bet this happens many times a week around the GA world.
    Dale
    'Slipping the surly bonds of Earth...' ​at every opportunity!

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