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Thread: right of way question

  1. #11
    Throttle Pusher's Avatar
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    Default Re: right of way question

    So true!
    If in dought, See and avoid. or listen respond and avoid.
    Ahh h@ll, just be courteous. We're all out there for the same thing, and the one's that are not courteous? We need to look for and avoid them the most!!

  2. #12
    Jinkers's Avatar
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    Default Re: right of way question

    I think every student has these same questions, I know I did. Flying in a busy pattern at an un-towered airport used to drive me nuts. Half of the pilots were doing the things my instructor was telling me NOT to do. But you get used to it with practice and your ability to mentally visualize where everybody is will improve. I don't mind extending final, bailing out of the pattern or going round if there is any question. I'm having fun up there and if the extra gallon or two or .1 hrs is going to break the bank I should have stayed on the ground in the first place.

    I do wish the IFR guys would use common landmarks or distance and direction instead of IFR checkpoints though (about half do around here). Not being an IFR pilot, if it's not the home drome I don't know what/where those checkpoints are.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: right of way question

    Here's the facts:
    - since you were in the pattern for runway 11 with the wind favouring 11, and you clearly stated your intentions that your position was downwind for runway 11. This made the active runway 11.
    - since you were operating under VFR flight rules, the weather was VFR, ( or if you were cleared for a Special, you would have been in contact with ATC. Which this was not the case).
    - the weather being VFR, the traffic, Cessna on a practice app. was fitting in with you and side stepped the runway.
    - the B-25 (from just the points stated), clearing violated proper Comm. procedures, either if he was IFR or practice ILS App. He made one call, "at the outer marker, which is 3-4 miles final and with a V-ref speed for a B-25 must have been around 130-140 kts, this means that the time to the end of the runway is less than 2 minutes. The B-25 crew if on a real IFR clearance should have called at least 20 minutes out and state their intentions and monitor the local freq. They did not call out their intentions for the app. ie, "Beacon outbound for the full procedure for runway 29", later " Procedure Turn for Runway 29", intercepting LOC 29, xxx miles final outside the Beacon, (or from the runway)", but they did call over the Marker, one call out five. Not too Professional. Flying a B-25, one would expect that a crew would be better than that. Especially IFR. ( And, if on a practice App the same Calls apply).

    In Canada, these Calls are LAW and one should completing them. I would have asked them to explain over the radio, why!!!!! And filed a report with ATC and the FAA.

    Johnnie, you did the right thing. Sometimes when I'm in this situation I ask the other aircraft outright, "what are you doing", and get a clear picture.

    PeterL

  4. #14

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    Default Re: right of way question

    First, I do thank you all for your thoughts and input. I must add that it is most refreshing and reassurning that the comments made here reflect the way I feel as well. I, just like you do believe that the concept of common courtesy is always relevant and important to fly safely. Like Jinkers, on more than one occasion, I have extended my downwind for someone on a "long final " -- usually it's for one of the corporate types that frequent the field -- with the comment " No problem. It just gives me the chance to have more fun flying ". The practice of courtesy kind of " paid off " for me, once. I got a ride in the right seat of a Turbine Commander ( he could get cheaper fuel at a field 15 minutes away ) just because of the above reason. That was a real *hoot* BTW.

    Peter, my instructor basically had the same opinion that you stated. The weather was VFR ( CAVU to be exact ), the wind was definitely favoring 11, no one was in distress and most importantly I was ALREADY ESTABLISHED in the pattern. It is her opinion that , in this case, the situation cound have been handled better by the b25 pilot -- Perhaps by doing something as simple as listening for the active runway 10 miles out and proceeding accordingly. She also asked me the question, " What if we were in an old J-3?" I thought I didn't have an answer for her, at the time. In retrospect, now I belive I did. I said " Just like always, I should keep my head on swivel", and remember to always play nice in the pool.

  5. #15

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    Default Re: right of way question

    Brett,

    I think we are in agreement with each other. The atached link is good for students at any level.

    http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa08.pdf

    Jeff

  6. #16
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    Default Re: right of way question

    Quote Originally Posted by 11304 View Post
    Brett,

    I think we are in agreement with each other. The atached link is good for students at any level.

    http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa08.pdf

    Jeff
    The "Courtesy Tip" on page 5 brings up a particular pet peeve of mine. I hear the "Traffic in the area, please advise" phrase way too often. I'm the stubborn sort that refuses to reply to such a request.

  7. #17

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    Default Re: right of way question

    The phrase "Any traffic in the are, please advise," was started by a commuter airline that frequently flew into uncontrolled airfields. It was in their ops manual as a required call. The legions of pilot mill graduates and airline wanna-bees spread its use like so much manure. Hearing it tells me that the pilot considers him or herself (mostly him, it seems) to be too busy and important to bother looking out the window and is trying to offload clearing responsibilities to others. I know that is not always the case, but all too often it is.

    I usually just respond that there are multiple no-radio aircraft in the area. It's usually true, anyway.

  8. #18
    NWMilt's Avatar
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    Default Re: right of way question

    http://home.earthlink.net/~clfinkel/collision.html

    http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/o_n_o/docs/AVIATION/3523.PDF

    The second one is kind of dry but involved a coworker of mine. Took a lot of time on his part. In the end there was still not a definitive answer to what constituted a straight in.

  9. #19
    BrettL's Avatar
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    Default Re: right of way question

    Quote Originally Posted by akt View Post
    The phrase "Any traffic in the are, please advise," was started by a commuter airline that frequently flew into uncontrolled airfields. It was in their ops manual as a required call.
    I find it interesting that their FAA approved ops manual would specifically direct them to use a phrase that the AIM states "should not be used under any condition."

  10. #20
    BrettL's Avatar
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    Default Re: right of way question

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterL View Post
    I would have asked them to explain over the radio, why!!!!! And filed a report with ATC and the FAA.
    Peter,

    At uncontrolled airports in the United States radio communication is taught, recommended and encouraged, but ultimately voluntary, and I hope it stays that way. I don't believe that filing a report with ATC and/or the FAA, and asking them blatantly "why" on the radio are very effective ways of encouraging radio communication at uncontrolled airports. Also since the airfield (KHAO) is uncontrolled, there is no appropriate ATC facility to report this to.

    I also happen to be the kind of guy that, when I hear people at my home field complaining about others not using the radio, will intentionally leave my handheld behind and go fly my Vagabond.

    I do certainly think there is room for improvement in radio communication at uncontrolled airfields. I often hear the dreaded "Traffic in the area, please advise," or "turning left final", etc. I was once astonished to hear a flight instructor playing the role of tower controller on unicom frequency for his solo student at an uncontrolled airfield. I am a big advocate of accurate position reporting, and I'd rather a pilot not use the radio at all rather than report over some water tower or high school that is not labeled on any aviation chart, or call "over" something simply because they can see it on the horizon on a good visibility day. I found this very poorly taught at the college flight school I attended. When you call your position, I'm looking for you where you say you are, but I do appreciate that distances are often a best guess approximation.

    Tower controlled or not, always operate like there's someone out there who isn't talking/listening on the radio (or perhaps is on the wrong frequency), that is not where they say they are, or has been confused with another aircraft either by you or by ATC. ALL OF THESE HAVE HAPPENED TO ME, MULTIPLE TIMES, AT BOTH TOWERED AND NON-TOWERED AIRPORTS.

    Brett

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