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Thread: Vagabond Gross weight increase

  1. #11
    d.grimm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vagabond Gross weight increase

    Since Piper was so happy to send me a e-mail about the support they can offer/sell I thought I would give them a try

    Dear Sir:

    We have searched our archives and Piper Service Memos, Bulletins,
    Letters and Service Spares Letters and are unable to find such a letter
    or approval from Piper with any reference to increasing the gross weigh
    on the Piper PA15. Piper is unable to find or recreate a letter written
    in 1967 on this subject. We have researched the FAA TCDS (please copies
    attached above) and noted that item # 211 on the PA15 TCDS # A-800
    refers to installation of two shock struts per Piper installation
    drawing # 11550 (copy of drawing attached above) but there is no
    reference to this installation increasing the gross weight in our
    records and reports or in the FAA TCDS.

    Because of our company's history and the number of years since the
    letter was written, Piper is unable to substantiate such a letter and
    the details involved for a gross weight increase. In order to accomplish
    an increase you would need some type of approval form the FAA in the
    form of a STC or 337 field approvals. Piper would unable to participate
    in this type of approval.

    Regards,
    Customer Services
    Piper Aircraft, Inc.



    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 2:52 PM
    To: airframe
    Subject: PA15 gross weight

    I am looking for a Piper Letter dated 11-15-67 stating that the PA15
    with the PA 17 shock cord gear system allows a 1150 lb gross weight. I
    have Field Approvals from two different aircraft referencing this letter
    for the PA17 gross weight when equipped with the shock strut landing
    gear.
    Could you give me cost and availability?
    Thank You,
    David Grimm
    P.S. I wouldn't normally bother, however I did just receive a e-mail
    about product support and engineering.

  2. #12
    Gilbert Pierce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vagabond Gross weight increase

    Quote Originally Posted by d.grimm View Post
    Since Piper was so happy to send me a e-mail about the support they can offer/sell I thought I would give them a try

    Because of our company's history and the number of years since the
    letter was written, Piper is unable to substantiate such a letter and
    the details involved for a gross weight increase. In order to accomplish
    an increase you would need some type of approval form the FAA in the
    form of a STC or 337 field approvals. Piper would unable to participate
    in this type of approval.

    Regards,
    Customer Services
    Piper Aircraft, Inc.



    .
    No surprise there.

  3. #13

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    Default Re: Vagabond Gross weight increase

    Dave,
    Oh well, it was worth a try. This is a situation of who you know not what you know. If you know anybody who is somebody at Piper Aircraft, Inc., that would be the person to lean on for help. Asking "Customer Services" for customer service was likely to result in disappointment as Gilbert remarked. Try asking the president of Piper Aircraft, Inc. for help if you don't know anybody. Sometimes asking from the top down works better than from the bottom up. Good luck.
    Eric

    Quote Originally Posted by d.grimm View Post
    Since Piper was so happy to send me a e-mail about the support they can offer/sell I thought I would give them a try

    Dear Sir:

    We have searched our archives and Piper Service Memos, Bulletins,
    Letters and Service Spares Letters and are unable to find such a letter
    or approval from Piper with any reference to increasing the gross weigh
    on the Piper PA15. Piper is unable to find or recreate a letter written
    in 1967 on this subject. We have researched the FAA TCDS (please copies
    attached above) and noted that item # 211 on the PA15 TCDS # A-800
    refers to installation of two shock struts per Piper installation
    drawing # 11550 (copy of drawing attached above) but there is no
    reference to this installation increasing the gross weight in our
    records and reports or in the FAA TCDS.

    Because of our company's history and the number of years since the
    letter was written, Piper is unable to substantiate such a letter and
    the details involved for a gross weight increase. In order to accomplish
    an increase you would need some type of approval form the FAA in the
    form of a STC or 337 field approvals. Piper would unable to participate
    in this type of approval.

    Regards,
    Customer Services
    Piper Aircraft, Inc.



    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 2:52 PM
    To: airframe
    Subject: PA15 gross weight

    I am looking for a Piper Letter dated 11-15-67 stating that the PA15
    with the PA 17 shock cord gear system allows a 1150 lb gross weight. I
    have Field Approvals from two different aircraft referencing this letter
    for the PA17 gross weight when equipped with the shock strut landing
    gear.
    Could you give me cost and availability?
    Thank You,
    David Grimm
    P.S. I wouldn't normally bother, however I did just receive a e-mail
    about product support and engineering.

  4. #14
    d.grimm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vagabond Gross weight increase

    Talked with my FAA guy about this, he's very interested, so we
    will be working on a STC or a model change. Thanks Gilbert for that idea.
    Requirements will be Continental powered and shock struts.
    Dave

  5. #15
    Clayton Harper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vagabond Gross weight increase

    I remember hearing Clyde Smith talk about this once. '48 or '49 Pug Piper was going to go for a 1220# GW and was pulled off of that project. As I remember, it was going to require a gross weigh drop test, and Piper just never got around to it. I think I remember that correctly. What a great LSA it would be.

  6. #16
    Gilbert Pierce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vagabond Gross weight increase

    Quote Originally Posted by Clayton Harper View Post
    I remember hearing Clyde Smith talk about this once. '48 or '49 Pug Piper was going to go for a 1220# GW and was pulled off of that project. As I remember, it was going to require a gross weigh drop test, and Piper just never got around to it. I think I remember that correctly. What a great LSA it would be.
    It is an LSA. With a gross wt. of 1150 lbs, 2 seats, 65 hp and never exceed 117 kts. It is a great affordable LSA.

  7. #17
    Clayton Harper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vagabond Gross weight increase

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilbert Pierce View Post
    It is an LSA. With a gross wt. of 1150 lbs, 2 seats, 65 hp and never exceed 117 kts. It is a great affordable LSA.
    How did you read that I didn't know it was an LSA?
    Better with a little more GW. PA-15 or PA-17 if built light enough, is fantastic. An average Vag's GW and therefor it's not so great "useful load" is what brought me to the Clipper.
    You own one and you have to have done the math. Wouldn't it be better with a 1220# GW?

  8. #18
    d.grimm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vagabond Gross weight increase

    My thoughts right now are get a STC for 1150 lbs on the PA15 and determine how painful the process is, then go for a 10% increase or a 1265 gross weight from there. On my airplane that would make a 540 lb useful or full tanks (24 gal) and 396 lbs of passengers and baggage. I was looking through some FAA CD's of various N-numbers that I have and have wondered how you can put a 0-200, 36 gallons of gas, electrical system and full gyro's and radio, transponder and encoder in a PA15. My guess would be it was at 1265 or more for every takeoff.
    Dave

  9. #19
    Gilbert Pierce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vagabond Gross weight increase

    I saw one like that at Blakesburg Antique Airplane Fly-in several years ago but it had an O-235 (heavy) in it. I talked to the owner and suggested it was probably over gross at take-off with just him in it. He assured me it was not heavy. I didn't believe it. 2 wing tanks, gyros and electrical system-get real.

    I like the way my light weight stock PA17 flies.
    Last edited by Gilbert Pierce; 01-19-2012 at 10:42 PM.

  10. #20
    Administrator Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vagabond Gross weight increase

    I think the Vagabond would be a great plane to build new as an LSA like Legend did the J3.

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