Pacer wing rebuild

[mmoyle]

Right wing disassembled. 3 ribs are repairable. Pealing masking tape from the aileron for to long...gotta be an easier way.. Burning makes a mess. Heat gun softens up the tape...still not fun. Amazing what will hide under fabric.http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160411/2833da25864b2d696e8b37603d452428.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160411/22d1da3261e07dda27518c3d9d9fb9fc.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160411/934e749f0a965ab7670fb4abb9043280.jpg


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[Pacerfgoe]

What is that in the first picture.....is that a main spar "repair"?

[mmoyle]

Yup...done in 1980


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[Pacerfgoe]

It would be kind of interesting to see what is behind that patch....

[mmoyle]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160411/49a978c65b75a1e290604ad7a4232562.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160411/aa53c703fa6638e2f587991a4a849689.jpg

[Jim Hann]

I'm guessing there is no engineering data for that, eh?

Mark, I've got those wings sitting here but I think shipping even in pieces would kill us.

Jim

[mmoyle]

Nope. Tearing down the left wing. Found repairs not in the log book. Spar splice and four ribs.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160411/9b833c7a1b8a2f140be49813ade39db3.jpg

[tloes]

I'm guessing there is no engineering data for that, eh?

Mark, I've got those wings sitting here but I think shipping even in pieces would kill us.

Jim

Jim:

A friend (in Iowa) needs a set of wings. If you'd like to unload them, send a PM with some condition info and price. It would be awfully nice to find a set not too far away and St. Louis is within the radius of "not too far".

Best regards,

Todd

[pistoncan]

Right wing disassembled. 3 ribs are repairable. Pealing masking tape from the aileron for to long...gotta be an easier way.. Burning makes a mess. Heat gun softens up the tape...still not fun. Amazing what will hide under fabric.


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Try brushing lacquer thinner on the tape. It should dissolve the glue.

I wish I had a set of 18 inch pieces of those spars to do my extensions.

Gary

[mmoyle]

I'll get back to you on that. I'm almost done disassembling the left wing. Rear spar isn't straight. Has aluminum flat bar added to the angle bar on both sides of the upper web where the wing struts connect to the wing. Tie that to the front spar splice that'll be 4 feet from the wing tip... Not happy with it. I'm almost certain I'll be converting the wings to the 13 rib PA22 160 hp.... And do the aileron move to the wing tip... Stretch the flap.. And decided to use leading edge metal that screws to the spar all the way to the wing tip. Which means... I'll have lots of spar stock if I buy a set of pre drilled Univair spars. Anyway. I'm still at the drain Bramage stage... Haven't figured out exactly what I'll be doing....yet.
Here's a picture of one of the... This ain't right...[lhttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160411/3a571d26ac6e5c7dba6230c23a97b640.jpg

[pistoncan]

I'll get back to you on that. I'm almost done disassembling the left wing. Rear spar isn't straight. Has aluminum flat bar added to the angle bar on both sides of the upper web where the wing struts connect to the wing. Tie that to the front spar splice that'll be 4 feet from the wing tip... Not happy with it. I'm almost certain I'll be converting the wings to the 13 rib PA22 160 hp.... And do the aileron move to the wing tip... Stretch the flap.. And decided to use leading edge metal that screws to the spar all the way to the wing tip. Which means... I'll have lots of spar stock if I buy a set of pre drilled Univair spars. Anyway. I'm still at the drain Bramage stage... Haven't figured out exactly what I'll be doing....yet.
Here's a picture of one of the... This ain't right...[l

I would imagine shipping is the big problem for you (as always) D&E makes good spar blanks which would be good as you will not have extra holes when you move the ailerons out. I would imagine somebody up there stocks D&E spars.

[rsrguy3]

Wow that sucks! You were flying this wing before right? Looks like it's riddled with feild expedient repairs. It's looking like you may just need to start from scratch. Is there a wing kit or will you be made to pay per individual part?

[rsrguy3]

Could you fill me in on the aileron/flap extension?

[mmoyle]

I would imagine shipping is the big problem for you (as always) D&E makes good spar blanks which would be good as you will not have extra holes when you move the ailerons out. I would imagine somebody up there stocks D&E spars.

I'm pretty sure Stoddart's has spar extrusions. Extra holes will be in the spar extension.

[mmoyle]

Could you fill me in on the aileron/flap extension?

Looks like the right wing has been rebuilt three times. Left wing twice. Three ground loops damaging the right wing...and one ground loop or something damaging the left wing...that repair isn't in the log books.
On the "move the aileron out". I've spoken with Eddie Trimmer many times over the past couple years. Each time asking about his wing STC. The last conversation he gave me the details on what his STC calls for when moving the aileron out, the outboard aileron hinge becomes the inboard aileron hinge. The aileron gets squared at the out board end to match a squared off wing tip or wing tip of some type. I'm using the cross wind STOL wing tips. The old inboard aileron hinge location becomes the flap outboard hinge. A lengthened flap will have three hinges. The flap controls get moved to the center of the flap. The aileron controls get moved also. Eddie uses 1/16" cable and turn buckles to create another cross brace for the wing extension. He didn't say anything about adding another cross bar between the front and rear spars at the end of the wing extension where the cross brace wires connect... I'd imagine it's suppose to be there...I'm adding it. I'm also adding leading edge skin that wraps around to the spars all the way to the wing tip.. Then Eddie wants me to do CAD drawings of the modification.

[rsrguy3]

Very very nice.

[JPerkins]

What would you charge a feller for a copy of said CAD drawings? That is if Eddie's STC isn't off the ground in a year or two.

[mmoyle]

I think Eddie wants to use the drawings for his STC. His present drawings call out things he doesn't want like covering the flaps with aluminum.


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[Steve Pierce]

Nope. Tearing down the left wing. Found repairs not in the log book. Spar splice and four ribs.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160411/9b833c7a1b8a2f140be49813ade39db3.jpg
That looks like the appoved spar splice.

[Jim Hann]

Jim:

A friend (in Iowa) needs a set of wings. If you'd like to unload them, send a PM with some condition info and price. It would be awfully nice to find a set not too far away and St. Louis is within the radius of "not too far".

Best regards,

Todd

I'll be in touch.

[rsrguy3]

As will I.

[pistoncan]

I'm pretty sure Stoddart's has spar extrusions. Extra holes will be in the spar extension. I'm confused by this, If you were to use cub length blank extrusions, why would there be an extension? Or am I missing something?

Gary

[mmoyle]

Ah... My bad. If I were using PA22 wing spars, all the ribs, cross brace wires and structure remains in the same location. A spar extensions will be modified to fit the aileron move. If I stick with the super cub spars....no extension, just cut to length.

[pistoncan]

Ah... My bad. If I were using PA22 wing spars, all the ribs, cross brace wires and structure remains in the same location. A spar extensions will be modified to fit the aileron move. If I stick with the super cub spars....no extension, just cut to length.

Ok Sorry, now I understand. I am in the process of assembling my wings. I want to add the 18 inches on the end of my wings, then put a homemade Stewart type wing bow on the end of that, move the ailerons out to the end and increase the flap, keep the standard aileron profile blended into the stewart type tip. Unfortunately I have standard piper spars so I have to do an extension. Not sure if I should make the bow out of aluminum tube or steel tube. I have never seen the parts callout for the Stewart STC so I am just guessing.

[Jim Hann]

Ok Sorry, now I understand. I am in the process of assembling my wings. I want to add the 18 inches on the end of my wings, then put a homemade Stewart type wing bow on the end of that, move the ailerons out to the end and increase the flap, keep the standard aileron profile blended into the stewart type tip. Unfortunately I have standard piper spars so I have to do an extension. Not sure if I should make the bow out of aluminum tube or steel tube. I have never seen the parts callout for the Stewart STC so I am just guessing.
Here you go.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160412/f4280c8a8f3a55a11023cca98c35503f.jpg

[pistoncan]

Here you go.


Outstanding, Thank you so much!

Do you think that is a smaller rig after the aileron rib? Any idea what EMT tubing is? Conduit? I am going to try to keep the outline similar to the regular piper bow. Not sure how that will shake out.

Gary

[Jim]

Hi Gary,

http://www.menards.com/main/maintenance-repair-operations/lighting-electrical/wiring-connecting/conduit/1-2-emt-conduit/p-1444446525135-c-6423.htm?tid=-3396398181649413136

http://www.menards.com/main/maintenance-repair-operations/lighting-electrical/wiring-connecting/conduit/3-4-emt-conduit/p-1444446523002.htm

[Jim Hann]

Outstanding, Thank you so much!

Do you think that is a smaller rig after the aileron rib? Any idea what EMT tubing is? Conduit? I am going to try to keep the outline similar to the regular piper bow. Not sure how that will shake out.

Gary
I can tell you what I have in my wings. The rib at the end of the aileron has an extra piece attached to make it full length. The tip rib is a Univair J-3 rib, not a butt rib, just a full size one. My ailerons were not done exactly as shown with a piece of trailing edge covering the curve, the rebuilder bought two new inboard ribs and new aileron TE stock and made them completely square, he just used the inboard ribs on the opposite wings (left inboard rib is the outboard end of the right aileron, etc.)

I think the biggest problem you'll have with trying to maintain the Piper shape is support. The stock bows have several diagonals to support it and probably also to limit up and down movement.

Good luck!

[walt.buskey]

pistoncan, EMT stands for "electro metallic tubing" or "electrical metallic tubing." Used for LOTS of things besides running wires in. These are terrible pics (still in winter storage), but here's my home-made garden cart. Used a tubing bender.


1031910320

[mmoyle]

This is cool... Found this inside the left flap spar.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160413/e027b5df4970931ca899e8d07184a147.jpg

[pistoncan]

This is cool... Found this inside the left flap spar.


I unintentionally hijacked this thread, so I have to apologize, that wasn't my intent. I will be following this very closely. I took my wings apart 5-6 years ago and don't recall much how they go back together so watching you do this will be very helpful. Thank you MMoyle.

PS did the lacquer thinner help?

[mmoyle]

No high jack...makes it easier for folks who use the search function to find what they're looking for in one thread....variations in one thread are great...might cause me to change directions due to your or someone's else posts. I don't have lacquer thinner. Tried acetone...doesn't work very well. Next I'll try some chevron ban ice...see how that works.


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[pistoncan]

No high jack...makes it easier for folks who use the search function to find what they're looking for in one thread....variations in one thread are great...might cause me to change directions due to your or someone's else posts. I don't have lacquer thinner. Tried acetone...doesn't work very well. Next I'll try some chevron ban ice...see how that works.


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Yep, acetone is nowhere near as volatile as lacquer thinner.

[Jim]

Hi,

......don't have lacquer thinner.

A WD 40 soak or diesel overnight softens dried masking tape glue too. A little clean up after, but no scraping involved.

[mmoyle]

Hi,

......don't have lacquer thinner.

A WD 40 soak or diesel overnight softens dried masking tape glue too. A little clean up after, but no scraping involved.

Great idea....thanks

[mmoyle]

6 hours of drilling rivets on the left wing flap and aileron. One aileron ready to square. Steel parts removed from the flap and aileron. The monotony of drilling out rivets gives a person time to think.. Since I'm moving the flap control bell crank away from significant structure and moving it to an area with significantly less structure.. Makes me wonder what Piper did on the PA18? I'd like to find drawings for the PA 18 wings..anyone have a web link to the drawings?
My thoughts are to omit the tank bay false spar and use the false spar you find further out on the wing in its place. Add sheet metal to the flap false spar at the flap center hinge where the bell crank will be located or use the tank bay false spar part there. Might be another good location for one of Univair's stamped ribs.... Will figure it out when I do the drawings...

Another thought or question. What is the performance difference between the PA18 flap gap seal sheet metal...(it's shaped like the top half of the false spar but with a smaller radius) and the flat sheet metal gap seal I removed? I'm wondering if the PA18 gap seal can be fit after installing the flap to obtain around 1/8"-3/16" gap... Remove the flap then cover the wing... That would be one less edge at a right angle to air flow across the wing.


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[pistoncan]

6 hours of drilling rivets on the left wing flap and aileron. One aileron ready to square. Steel parts removed from the flap and aileron. The monotony of drilling out rivets gives a person time to think.. Since I'm moving the flap control bell crank away from significant structure and moving it to an area with significantly less structure.. Makes me wonder what Piper did on the PA18? I'd like to find drawings for the PA 18 wings..anyone have a web link to the drawings?
My thoughts are to omit the tank bay false spar and use the false spar you find further out on the wing in its place. Add sheet metal to the flap false spar at the flap center hinge where the bell crank will be located or use the tank bay false spar part there. Might be another good location for one of Univair's stamped ribs.... Will figure it out when I do the drawings...

Another thought or question. What is the performance difference between the PA18 flap gap seal sheet metal...(it's shaped like the top half of the false spar but with a smaller radius) and the flat sheet metal gap seal I removed? I'm wondering if the PA18 gap seal can be fit after installing the flap to obtain around 1/8"-3/16" gap... Remove the flap then cover the wing... That would be one less edge at a right angle to air flow across the wing.


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Here ya go. all the PA 18 drawings
http://www.supercubproject.com/drawings/

[Steve Pierce]

The PA18 flap bellcrank is installed identical to the Pacer. Same parts as well. Are you getting a field approval?

[mmoyle]

The PA18 flap bellcrank is installed identical to the Pacer. Same parts as well. Are you getting a field approval?

Steve,
Saw that in the drawings. I'm wondering why Eddie moved the flap bellcrank? Perhaps because he used four flaps to make two longer flaps. I think that would be a costlier way to extend flaps. New parts from Dakota cub to build a new flap is cheaper than I've seen used flaps sold on eBay. The other issue is very little structure to support the flap bellcrank hinge assembly beyond the tank bay false spar which is made from 0.025" aluminum. False spar is 0.016" I've been thinking about how to strengthen the structure to do what Eddie wants. Doable with point oh two five sheet, attach to the false spar, break the edge at the spar and shrink the portion of the sheet were is attaches to the spar to insure the fabric isn't touching the sheet metal until it reaches the false spar. Then add an additional formed doubler to the false spar and the same doubler found on the tank bay false spar to support the hinge.
Stock super cub flaps are 62-1/2"...STC's for longer flaps same bellcrank location...
I'm going to do the drawings first. One set that keeps the bellcrank in the stock location. One set like Eddie calls for....Send them to Eddie......and see what can be done to help him get the STC done.

I talked with Brian at Dakota cub on the slotted wings... Where is the FAA on the STC for them? Did my taxes yesterday....grumble grumble. Today start on the drawings.
Mark

[mmoyle]

Have the basics drawn up. Spars, ribs, aileron and flap hinges, flaps and ailerons less the small gussets. Wing gets extended 7-1/16" beyond the stock wing tip bow....plus the additional width of the wing tip. Flap width increases to 87".


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[pistoncan]

Have the basics drawn up. Spars, ribs, aileron and flap hinges, flaps and ailerons less the small gussets. Wing gets extended 7-1/16" beyond the stock wing tip bow....plus the additional width of the wing tip. Flap width increases to 87".


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did you see the private message I sent you?

[mmoyle]

did you see the private message I sent you?

Don't see a message from you.

[mmoyle]

I'm guessing there is no engineering data for that, eh?

Mark, I've got those wings sitting here but I think shipping even in pieces would kill us.

Jim

Was looking through the 337's on the Pacer today...found the engineering data on that spar repair.. found a 337 on the left wing repair from 1954... Wasn't in the log book. Also found where the right gear leg was replaced in 1954 as well. Since 1954 the right gear leg has been damaged 4 times

[pistoncan]

Don't see a message from you.
tried again

[mmoyle]

tried again

Just replied

[mmoyle]

Have'n a rib party... Thanks Marv...http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160418/d3b83dffba80486533d30a8c0cc59ddd.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160418/e331790b1b49756d601798cd9ddd6406.jpg