Float Operations and Safety

[piperrocks2013]

Hello again guys, going through YouTube I bumped into this video of a Super Cub on takeoff on floats and from what I can tell it either blew a connecting rod or cylinder ??? Either way it was not good takeoff and ended up bad. Least no one got hurt.
Kinda got me thinking and maybe the fact it's Sunday I'm tired maybe paranoid ha ha, but has anyone ever tried a power off glide on PA 22 float plane at gross??? I know with me on board it sinks like a rock. Kinda got me thinking with our small wing area is this a safe plane on floats at gross?? Yes it performs alright on floats but how does it perform safety wise at gross with no engine power? Wanted to see what others thought.


Jared

video

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1a6SlogRo1s

[Grantmac]

Couple things:

Looks like buddy in the video lost the engine under 100 ft and hit in a turn. So right there you've got a crappy situation that didn't really get handled well. The low speed arrival is what saved them.
It's not that the Pacer comes down a lot quicker so much as the glide is at a much higher airspeed.

That said I had a long chat about engine loss during float operation with a good friend (+3000 hours beaver/otter on floats). You lose the engine in either of those aircraft and you are not going to finish up with an undamaged airframe. Both glide like rocks and the Beaver especially will snap out of a low speed turn and onto its back. His thoughts were that so long as you made it to the water under control you had a pretty good chance of surviving and the only way to do that was to carry substantiallymore speed that in a regular landing.

This conversation was a few years back and I don't fly floats as of now, but I was going to chat with him tomorrow and I'll see if his thoughts have changed since then.

Grant

[rocket]

J,

I took off on a vary low right tank once. I know I know...

I was low on fuel and just me. I was off in about 600 feet of a 2300 pond. I had just made Vy and dumped flaps when she sputtered. I had about 600 feet of pond in front of me and a 206 on the only place I could have scraped her across.

It all happened fast but I:

-pulled the throttle
-shoved the yoke to the stop
-full flap pull and yoke back
-I touched down with little vertical movement but I did see my airspeed was 70... way better then having any vertical velocity.
-at this touchdown speed its ugly, like landing down wind.
-she yawed hard to the right like she wanted that 206...
-full rudder stomp and back and forth twice...
-I kissed the beach ever so softly...
-I looked down at me shaking knees and saw the fuel selector on the right tank...

The key to this is immediate yoke forward and gaining/keeping enough airspeed for the flair... This means at gross you need to push for 90mph if you can get it. I had a kid CFI at Sheblies show me that best glide was one thing but he said shove her down for all the airspeed you could get on floats

I fly in a pond with terrain all around so I come over the edge and shove her down and flair so i know what it takes but I seldom land that way at gross as I usually return with empty tanks :)

Thinking key is practice. I have a flying buddy that told me to go out and practice partial power as a means to hone skills and really focus on finding the sweet spot on floats.

I have had one ugly takeoff in a density alt condition and one screwed up landing in a super short glassy slew so far: rusty and hot temps we have not had out here in 15 years.

I made a new rule for the 5NK pond: half tanks only at 75F or better with a cross wind. I have other fueling options and just don't need to push it.

Its always good to be lucky, better to be good, and best having both when the brain gets heat soaked.

Rocket

ps. next time I'll share my downwind float landing fun!

[piperrocks2013]

Couple things:

Looks like buddy in the video lost the engine under 100 ft and hit in a turn. So right there you've got a crappy situation that didn't really get handled well. The low speed arrival is what saved them.
It's not that the Pacer comes down a lot quicker so much as the glide is at a much higher airspeed.

That said I had a long chat about engine loss during float operation with a good friend (+3000 hours beaver/otter on floats). You lose the engine in either of those aircraft and you are not going to finish up with an undamaged airframe. Both glide like rocks and the Beaver especially will snap out of a low speed turn and onto its back. His thoughts were that so long as you made it to the water under control you had a pretty good chance of surviving and the only way to do that was to carry substantiallymore speed that in a regular landing.

This conversation was a few years back and I don't fly floats as of now, but I was going to chat with him tomorrow and I'll see if his thoughts have changed since then.

Grant

Thanks Grant sounds interesting and didn't realize the old beaver can be that bad for glide.

[piperrocks2013]

J,

I took off on a vary low right tank once. I know I know...

I was low on fuel and just me. I was off in about 600 feet of a 2300 pond. I had just made Vy and dumped flaps when she sputtered. I had about 600 feet of pond in front of me and a 206 on the only place I could have scraped her across.

It all happened fast but I:

-pulled the throttle
-shoved the yoke to the stop
-full flap pull and yoke back
-I touched down with little vertical movement but I did see my airspeed was 70... way better then having any vertical velocity.
-at this touchdown speed its ugly, like landing down wind.
-she yawed hard to the right like she wanted that 206...
-full rudder stomp and back and forth twice...
-I kissed the beach ever so softly...
-I looked down at me shaking knees and saw the fuel selector on the right tank...

The key to this is immediate yoke forward and gaining/keeping enough airspeed for the flair... This means at gross you need to push for 90mph if you can get it. I had a kid CFI at Sheblies show me that best glide was one thing but he said shove her down for all the airspeed you could get on floats

I fly in a pond with terrain all around so I come over the edge and shove her down and flair so i know what it takes but I seldom land that way at gross as I usually return with empty tanks :)

Thinking key is practice. I have a flying buddy that told me to go out and practice partial power as a means to hone skills and really focus on finding the sweet spot on floats.

I have had one ugly takeoff in a density alt condition and one screwed up landing in a super short glassy slew so far: rusty and hot temps we have not had out here in 15 years.

I made a new rule for the 5NK pond: half tanks only at 75F or better with a cross wind. I have other fueling options and just don't need to push it.

Its always good to be lucky, better to be good, and best having both when the brain gets heat soaked.

Rocket

ps. next time I'll share my downwind float landing fun!

these are some good tips rocket thanks

[piperrocks2013]

Rocket what speed does your bird break water in calm conditions ?? my seems at Gross with flaps roll one wing on hot summer day at 60 IAS. Just curious what you are seeing

[DougG]

Couple things:



That said I had a long chat about engine loss during float operation with a good friend (+3000 hours beaver/otter on floats). You lose the engine in either of those aircraft and you are not going to finish up with an undamaged airframe. Both glide like rocks and the Beaver especially will snap out of a low speed turn and onto its back. His thoughts were that so long as you made it to the water under control you had a pretty good chance of surviving and the only way to do that was to carry substantiallymore speed that in a regular landing.

This conversation was a few years back and I don't fly floats as of now, but I was going to chat with him tomorrow and I'll see if his thoughts have changed since then.

Grant



Really?
I think you better have another chat with your buddy.
Both the Beaver and Otter glide quite well, and although I've never had an engine failure in a Beaver I've had more than a few in the Otter. They were all at low level due to the work we were doing and never a bit of bent tin. If you need more than a thumb and an index finger on a DeHavilland control yoke you are doing something wrong and the airplane is telling you!
If you want a challenge at a dead stick landing try the Norseman UC-64. A Pacer would be a good training plane before getting into one of these.
DougG

[wcnyman]

I feel that squaring off the wings on a short wing on floats is one of the best safety features.. With and extra 3 feet
of lifting surface the power off glide should be improved..starting on mine this fall.

[piperrocks2013]

Bill you have to let me know how it turns out. I agree I think extra 3' would help lots.

[rocket]

Oh,


forgot to mention that I have the UVA Booster wingtips on the Batplane. They are the square off tips with fiberglass droop tips. Guessing they also help performance a lot.


Building one up in the shop right now...

10606


Have to agree with Doug above about the glide of the beaver and the Otter. Until the local operators went with the big PZL then the Garrett those Otters found all kinds of little ponds around here quite convenient.


Heck I had a 206 throw a rod and clean out the oil galleys a couple years ago and land it on the tundra upright. Helps that the stick is a pro. FAA guy who came out to inspect the wreck was really confused when I told him I had a new engine in it in 48 hours and had returned it to service. I didn't earn the nickname Rocket for nothing.


About breaking water... About ten years ago a really smart flying buddy says to me, if its in the white arc it should fly. If its in the white arc it should fly. Ok.. If there is a breeze and any kind of ripple I can get her off at Vs(bottom of the white arc) regardless of load.


If it is glassy and I am close to gross, two and full fuel but little gear in the back, have seen her at 65mph indicated and take every little bit of fanise I can muster. I have a 2400 foot pond to work with with a nice low spot at one end. There is a a narrow spot with about 600 feet afterwards so my personal rule is I pull power at that point if I am not off. At 65 on the sticky stuff I can stop in about 250-300 feet.


One needs to make a new "cut the power here" mark with each takeoff if you want to live long and don't want your bird to take that helicopter ride of shame to my shop.


So, heavy and glassy, never ever had a problem getting my bird on step so none of that silly rocking back and forth nonsense that just robs energy anyway.
One notch of flaps.
At about 50 I slowly add full aileron of my choice depending on load and terrain cause I am going to add complementary rudder in a bit.
Deep into the white arc, my head is outside the plane so I don't really know, I am feeling for the sweet spot with little elevator corrections,
I reach down for that second notch of flaps and smoothly pull while correcting with the elevator for the sweet spot.
Now this is key: use of rudder to keep the ball centered and once the first float is out the drag of the other will began to yaw. Don't fight it but add rudder to make a smooth carving turn. Don't get carried away and water loop her!
Also, as the first float is out back off the aileron to hold that wing angle.


Easy isn't it? It took me 300 hours before I felt like I could really start to get fancy with her on the water. Now it takes about 75 hours for me to really get my groove on. I only fly about 100 hours every summer… Seems like each year I start with a little more rust and it bothers me. I was thinking I really need some recurrent training but there are not any pacer float experts out west. The locals think I am but I know better.

10607


Fly smart, fly safe!


Rocket

[Clayton Harper]

I have done 3 of those simulated engine out in the last week in a Pacer. Two to practice and one for the Comm Chk Ride. You are a about 30 deg nose down to get to a 100 MPH. Works out good. That 100 MPH number is probably not so bad an idea with wheels. These Short Wings bleed energy fast so having some a the bottom could help. The picture is of the DPE, Ray Hodges, signing my new Comm ASES. He's the ol guy, ha.
Wish I could get someone to pay me to fly floats, say $5 and hour.

[piperrocks2013]

Thanks guys for all that information. Some really good advise Rocket and Clayton!! All try post some recent float flying pictures here tonight. Been crazy busy here with work and selling my house. Been no time for float flying :( Sits there on the lake all alone. Try get out this week. After Mid June hope things return to semi normal.