Full length super cub wings on a sort wing piper

[rdsaviation]

Hello all,

Im considering building a pacer with full size super cub wings. I dont want to streach the fusalage as im pleased with how my current pa 22-20 handles. Has anyone seen this done before? Other than possible tail authority issues could this be rectified with larger tail surface areas. Or am i missing somthing?

Thanks for the help

[Stephen]

Yes!

The difference between the center of lift and CG creates a pitching moment. This pitching moment is offset by the tail. increasing the wing span increases lift. Greater lift will increase this moment tendency. you will need a longer lever arm to offset this increased moment. longer wing span usually needs a longer fuselage.

I am currently building a Super Pacer (Bushmaster) SC wings and 22 inches longer fuselage.

[pistoncan]

Stephen, well said
Yes!

The difference between the center of lift and CG creates a pitching moment. This pitching moment is offset by the tail. increasing the wing span increases lift. Greater lift will increase this moment tendency. you will need a longer lever arm to offset this increased moment. longer wing span usually needs a longer fuselage.

I am currently building a Super Pacer (Bushmaster) SC wings and 22 inches longer fuselage.

[SMO22]

I dont think it would create an unstable plane, Ive flown Super Cubs with each wing lengthened 3' and foam cuffs rivited to the leading edge along with droop tips, tail was not modified, flew nice. Never flown a shortwing with an extened wing though. I bet somebody has.

[SMO22]

The Plane Booster droop tip STC removes the bow tip and adds an extra rib and than a droop tip, my total span is right around 30' and flys great. Im not sure what the 18 span is.

[rdsaviation]

Thanks for the help sofar.

A super cub has a span of 35'2.5'' and a pacer has a span of 29'3''.

I have added art win extentions and a sportsman cuff to a 180 total of roughly 24 inches longer per side with the sportsman tip and the costomer was very pleased.

What is the longest wing that you have seen on a pacer.

[pistoncan]

I have been told that 18" per side is the longest you can safely go without changing the lift struts.
Thanks for the help sofar.

A super cub has a span of 35'2.5'' and a pacer has a span of 29'3''.

I have added art win extentions and a sportsman cuff to a 180 total of roughly 24 inches longer per side with the sportsman tip and the costomer was very pleased.

What is the longest wing that you have seen on a pacer.

[PACERGUY]

Things that come to mind.

Are you going to have square tips or round ones? Are you going to push the aileron/flaps out? I have heard lots of complaints of extended cub wings having slower handling issues especially without moving controls out. I am sure Eddy Trimmer has the math to tell you how far out you could go with stock struts. You could do cub type as on the bushmaster. I think pacers handle much better in the air than a cub (quicker response), but bigger wings may effect that (more cub like) and make it much more susceptible to wind gusts/turbulence. I think one thing that would help a lot without much downside is a set of Doug Keller flaps. Figure out max length for stock struts, push aileron out to end of squared wing, and fill the rest with Keller flaps.

A bigger size tail would be a great ideal. A cub tail on a stock pacer makes a big difference you could even go a bit larger (Attlee Dodge) all bolt on stuff. You could do the wings and tail first. If it is not working the way you like it extend the fuselage later.

No right or wrong just some stuff to think about.
DENNY

[rdsaviation]

I like the squard wing and I have been looking at the cross wind stol wing tips but not to sure at this point. I would move alerions out board and extend the flaps to fill the gap. Waynes slats and keller flaps would make a great wing. I was planning to use super cub leng struts with jury struts to support the longer wings. The larger tail surfaces would help with tail authority.

Thanks

[Stephen]

I like the squard wing and I have been looking at the cross wind stol wing tips but not to sure at this point. I would move alerions out board and extend the flaps to fill the gap. Waynes slats and keller flaps would make a great wing. I was planning to use super cub leng struts with jury struts to support the longer wings. The larger tail surfaces would help with tail authority.

Thanks

Cross winds mods are STC'd. Moving the ailerons out is not, which means experimental. I have worked 5 years on an STC to move ailerons and enlarge flaps, Eddie has worked even longer with no success. An STC can be done but would take tens of thousands of dollars. I am going with the Bushmaster STC.

[PACERGUY]

With cub wings on a pacer the strut is a few inches shorter than a stock one due to fuselage hight.
DENNY

[Stephen]

With cub wings on a pacer the strut is a few inches shorter than a stock one due to fuselage hight.
DENNY

That is correct. In the Bushmaster STC, SC struts failed the load test and had to be strengthened. The wing is also strengthened and is much stouter than a SC wing.

[Stopher]

I'm building an experimental Pacer right now and I was curious if you guys know of someone who has increased the gross weight of a Pacer. Do the producers have a 2000 lb gross weight?

[Stephen]

I don't know about the Producer but, the Super Pacer (Bushmaster) does. The wings and lift struts are significantly strengthened as part of the STC.

Since as experimental you can set your own GW you might check out how the Super Pacer mod works. Increasing GW increases potential wing loading significantly when you multiply the g factor in.

[Don D]

I built experimental bushmaster some years ago. 37' windg span and 2500# gross weight.I reinforced the spars the same way that piper did on the PA 22. the spam loading is less than the Pa-22 even at 2500# due to the increased wing span.
200 hp, 1200# empty. great plane.

[Stephen]

Super Pacer STC calls for 4 foot .050 2024 plates layered on both sides of the spar webbing. These reinforcement plates are centered on the new lift strut attachment. There are also 1/8 inch angle aluminum strips inboard of the plates going all the way to the wing root. The Bushmaster wing was load tested to 4000 pounds each side. A friend has an early experimental conversion without this reinforcement and has been flying for years but, he won't fly on windy days or at gross weight. The reinforcement seems extremely stout.

[AKJurnee]

Kind of on topic but a question I've always had on Piper wing loading. My question is how much lifting tension is on the lower strut attach point VS the lifting tension at the wing root attach points? IN FLIGHT

I always assumed all of the tension was at the lower attach point at the fuselage and compression was at the wing root attach points. however looking at the front of the aircraft, the top of the wing strut is almost middle of the wing, so rethinking this it seems both the lower attach point and wing root attach points share almost an equal amount of lifting tension. Is that correct?

[Don D]

If not inverted, compression load on top. You are riding on the strut attachments. Weakest link is the top strut attach fittings.

[Don D]

Flew ag plane that had 4500# gross weight. Flew them all the time at 6500#. 3000# empty, 540# fuel, 2500# load!and 300# pilot. Stay below maneuvering speed.

[cappt]

http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/showthread.php?5125-V6-STOL-Plans&p=25986&viewfull=1#post25986

Some interesting reading if your planning a experimental type Bushmaster.

[pistoncan]

What are the folks that are "building" producers using for plans? or are they just modifying factory pacers?
I'm building an experimental Pacer right now and I was curious if you guys know of someone who has increased the gross weight of a Pacer. Do the producers have a 2000 lb gross weight?

[jmlacore]

what is the latest AD on wing strut forks anybody?

[Gilbert Pierce]

http://rgl.faa.gov/icons/expand.gif (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgad.nsf/0/f52f109a2645225786257e36004ea10c!OpenDocument&ExpandSection=1#_Section1)Federal Register Information

http://rgl.faa.gov/icons/collapse.gif (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgad.nsf/0/f52f109a2645225786257e36004ea10c!OpenDocument&ExpandSection=-2#_Section2)Header Information
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION


Federal Aviation Administration


14 CFR Part 39

[Docket No. FAA-2014-1083; Directorate Identifier 2014-CE-036-AD; Amendment 39-18140; AD 2015-08-04]


RIN 2120-AA64

Airworthiness Directives; Various Aircraft Equipped With Wing Lift Struts
PDF Copy (If Available):

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgad.nsf/0/f52f109a2645225786257e36004ea10c/PDF_Field/0.B4!OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgad.nsf/0/f52f109a2645225786257e36004ea10c/$FILE/2015-08-04.pdf)

2015-08-04.pdf (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgad.nsf/0/f52f109a2645225786257e36004ea10c/$FILE/2015-08-04.pdf)

[AKJurnee]

Who's a good reputable shop that can NDI the forks?

[Steve Pierce]

Who's a good reputable shop that can NDI the forks?

Univair does them.

[Steve Pierce]

What are the folks that are "building" producers using for plans? or are they just modifying factory pacers?

The Producer is an STC'd modification done by Steve Bryant.

[cook11]

I realize that this post is quite a few months old now but would Pa-14 or Pa-18 wings that are squared off at the ailerons with either no tip, splates or perhaps the shorter Dakota Cub tip work on a stock length fuselage experimental Pacer equipped with SC horizontal stabilizer and elevator? Removing the bow tips would take off a combined length of 56". This would give you a total wing length not including the fuselage width of 352". A stock Pacer wing with the bow tips is around 304". The Pa-14 wings would be ideal with the larger flaps and the internal aileron control cables. Would having the squared off wing increase the roll rate due to the aileron being located at the tip?

[Stephen]

I realize that this post is quite a few months old now but would Pa-14 or Pa-18 wings that are squared off at the ailerons with either no tip, splates or perhaps the shorter Dakota Cub tip work on a stock length fuselage experimental Pacer equipped with SC horizontal stabilizer and elevator? Removing the bow tips would take off a combined length of 56". This would give you a total wing length not including the fuselage width of 352". A stock Pacer wing with the bow tips is around 304". The Pa-14 wings would be ideal with the larger flaps and the internal aileron control cables. Would having the squared off wing increase the roll rate due to the aileron being located at the tip?

In general ailerons further outboard will increase roll rate. The 14 has a different aileron because of the ailerons leading edge which apparently is an improvement. Lengthening your wings to what sounds like about 33 feet, even if you install 18 elevators, may run out of elevator without lengthening the fuselage. The 14 wing is rare and may be difficult to find unless you build your own.