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stevesaircraft(Bri)
05-21-2008, 04:23 PM
Looking for a consensus. Have a customer that is trying to decide which tip to go with on his Pacer. Anyone here fly both? What are the pros and cons of both tips?

Thanks.

Brian.

Some information collected by Marc Davis also loacted on page 12 or 13 of this thread.

I was researching the various wing tips found on shortwings and thought it might be useful to gather the info in one place.
Please correct me if I got something wrong, add info about other tips if I missed some, or provide better pictures.

Madras/Deamer
Cut spar caps (shorter wing than most tips)
Replace last rib with full size plywood or stamped rib.
Install tip on last rib.
Note distance between aileron and last rib
http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13671&d=1529713951


Fergusson / Plane Booster
Bend cap strips straight (adds wing length)
Replace second to last rib with full size
Replace last rib with plywood or stamped rib.
Install tip on last rib.
Note distance between aileron and last rib
http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13672&d=1529714065

http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13673&d=1529714089



Crosswinds STOL
Not very common
Like a Sullivan with stall fence on top
http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13674&d=1529714157



Sullivan / Hendricks
Bend cap strips straight (adds wing length)
Replace second to last rib with full size
Replace last rib with stamped rib.
Install tip on last rib.
http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13675&d=1529714226


Stewarts
Bend cap strips straight (adds wing length)
Replace last rib with full size ribFabric over a bow like stock
Install bow similar to stock
Cover with fabric
http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13676&d=1529714287



Svenn's Aviation / Dakota Cub
STC to install Dakota tip.
http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13677&d=1529714509

Mr_Boondoggle
05-22-2008, 12:48 AM
Allow me to answer the question you did not ask.

I have flown Pacers and Tri-Pacers with 125hp, 135hp, 150hp, and 160hp. I have flown standard wings, Madras Booster Tips and Crosswind Stol wings.

Of all the above combinations, the Pacer with a 160hp engine and a Crosswind Stol kit made the shortest take off run and made the Pacer easer to fly.

The Madras Booster Tips help a little.

If I re-build my Pacer again, I'll go with the Crosswind stol kit including wing tips, stall fence, leading edge and gap seals.

Of course, A stock Pacer operations safely out of 1200 foot landing strips.....what more do you need?

Stephen
05-22-2008, 08:25 AM
Pat's observations are correct and the main reason that X-Winds STOL kit works best is that it has a variety of mods beyond the tips. It increases wing area, adds flap area, has a cuff and wing fence. I think the increased wing area is most important. This set-up does increase STOL performance.

The Demer (Madras tips) do a good job decreasing the induced drag (maybe better that the X-Winds tips), BUT, they cut off too much wing. My wings with this installation (done according to the STC) has a 28 foot wing span. Advantages are reduced induced drag and increased roll rate, disadvantages are loss of lifting surface and may lose cruise speed, on balance....little to some improvement in STOL.

Stewart's tip increases the wing area over the original wing and should reduce the induced drag some. This set-up may increase STOL, but it is consistently reported to increase cruise speed.

Both, Sullivan and Stewart systems should decrease the roll rate, which is difficult to quantify.

The Sullivan and Demer system has been carefully varified on Cubs, which can only be generalized to our short wing planes.

"A stock Pacer operations safely out of 1200 foot landing strips.....what more do you need?"



600 feet

Glen Geller
05-22-2008, 12:18 PM
Brian, I suggest you have your client clarify what his typical mission is going to be, and what acceptable trade-offs will work for him.
And you need to define budget, all the flap and fence and other mods sound pretty spendy to me.
I have the Madras (Droop) tips on my PA22-150 and I would (subjectivly) say it climbs a bit better and stalls a bit slower and rolls quite a bit better than the other three stock PA22-150s in our Bravo Three stable, but it's about 3-5 mph slower in cruise. And they are in my opinion not super pretty, they block side view (OK, just lift the wing but really....) and folks tend to bonk into them a lot. Stand up once into a droop tip and you will see stars for sure.
My personal chhoice would be the Stewart tips (very nice looking and I have heard no bad reports, just praise,) plus I might add VGs. That is said to be a winning combination.
Glen

stevesaircraft(Bri)
05-23-2008, 10:55 AM
His mission is twofold.
1: a little better stol performance and
2: better slow speed aileron control.
In my opinion the best setup is Demer/Madras or Plane Booster tips with VG's. This is How our pacer is set up. Unfortunately, the Demer tips are no longer in production therefore not available. Cub Crafters bought out Plane Boosters and changed the tip profile. The new tip has not been certified on the Pacers therefore are unavailable. Crosswinds are too ugly, sorry but they just are. So that leaves us with either Hedrick's or Hanger21. VG's are on order and will be installed probably before we even do the wingtip conversion. Eddie Trimmer put him on to the Hendricks tip. I have never installed one. I have installed the Stewart tip and like thier looks. There is a Cub on the field with the Hendricks tip and it is OK. The question is, which gives the PACER better control and performance?

Alaska guys can chime in at any time here :lol:

Brian.

Homer Landreth
05-23-2008, 11:42 PM
Brian; I am a week or so of good work days from finishing my Pacer which has Hendrick wing tips and no VGs. I would be extremely interested in seeing some data from your Pacer that you feel will fly with VGs before getting wing tips modifications. Certainly we have a good chance for some head to head data Pacer wise if we keep in touch. I will soon be able to get you some Pacer performance with Hendricks tips only, as I have been holding off on a VG decision and if you would reciprocate with data on a Pacer with only VGs on stock tips we would have some good test cases to sink our teeth into for evaluation. I can also get a "two for the price of one" evaluation in that my Tripacer has Madras tips. The Madras tips give me two specific things that i can hang my hat on. First, lower stall speed. I can't really cleanly stall my Tripacer. It just kind of floats around and rumbles a bit, but stays largely wings level and will lose a couple hundred feet, but then a heat thermal from the desert will come along and I get it all back and the process repeats until you get bored with it all. Second, more positive aileron control in the rotate to flare zone and bleed off of airspeed prior to touchdown. If I rotate to flare from around 65 Mph, and manipulate power using a sea plane Glassy Water technique, I end up touching down and roll out begin at around 50 Mph. Anyway, please keep in touch, i will appreciate it.

JohnW
05-24-2008, 08:16 AM
Homer, was there a typo in there? Did you mean to say "...to HANG your hat on..." or did you mean "... to BANG your hat on..."? :mrgreen:

Stephen
05-24-2008, 09:17 AM
The Cub data showed that the Demer tip was slightly better for slower speed than the Sullivan, but not by much.

It would be great to get some good data on different wing mods. Unfortunately, I've only seen data on the Stewart tips to was nearly useless.

d.grimm
05-25-2008, 09:07 AM
I have added VG's to two Pacers. The first was a really light 135 Pacer (1050 empty) and a heavy PA22/20 heavy Pacer. (1215 empty) Having flown both extensively, and the 135 prior to VG's, my experience was a 9 mph reduction in stall speed on the 135 with two people and full tanks. (1665 lbs) The PA22/20 in the same condition showed a 7 mph reduction in stall speed (1830 lbs)
These are what I would expect, considering the wing area is the same between both. These tests were done at 3000 ft msl at 65-70 degree temperature. The 135 flown solo with 1/2 tanks and a climb prop is quite the performer. (for a Pacer).
The added aileron responsiveness was worth the price with no other benefits. I don't think you can improve on the stock tips for looks.
Dave

Stephen
05-25-2008, 09:31 AM
Dave, thanks for the info on VG's. What type of stall (rpm setting and flap position) are you using for comparism.

I agree with you on the looks of the stock tips. I just wish that last foot of stock wing did more for the aircraft's lift.

d.grimm
05-25-2008, 10:05 AM
Stephen,
Full flaps, power to idle, three different 120 degree headings, GPS, and full up elevator.
Dave

Stephen
05-26-2008, 11:07 AM
Thanks Dave,

I've been doing my testing using 2000rpm, because I can't get a stall break at idle. I also did numerous timed test runs and compared them to gps on different headings.

Stephen
10-28-2009, 06:11 PM
Does anyone have a current phone number for Ron Sullivan?

Pacer160
10-29-2009, 01:27 AM
Sure
907 345 4630

Stephen
10-29-2009, 08:26 AM
Thanks

Larry Huntley
10-29-2009, 08:14 PM
The Demer tip covers up a lot of sky. Larry


Pat's observations are correct and the main reason that X-Winds STOL kit works best is that it has a variety of mods beyond the tips. It increases wing area, adds flap area, has a cuff and wing fence. I think the increased wing area is most important. This set-up does increase STOL performance.

The Demer (Madras tips) do a good job decreasing the induced drag (maybe better that the X-Winds tips), BUT, they cut off too much wing. My wings with this installation (done according to the STC) has a 28 foot wing span. Advantages are reduced induced drag and increased roll rate, disadvantages are loss of lifting surface and may lose cruise speed, on balance....little to some improvement in STOL.

Stewart's tip increases the wing area over the original wing and should reduce the induced drag some. This set-up may increase STOL, but it is consistently reported to increase cruise speed.

Both, Sullivan and Stewart systems should decrease the roll rate, which is difficult to quantify.

The Sullivan and Demer system has been carefully varified on Cubs, which can only be generalized to our short wing planes.

"A stock Pacer operations safely out of 1200 foot landing strips.....what more do you need?"



600 feet

Stephen
10-30-2009, 09:01 AM
[quote="Larry Huntley"]The Demer tip covers up a lot of sky. Larry

Agree, but my skylite makes up for the loss during turns.

Lownslow
11-01-2009, 09:59 AM
Thanks for the objective comments on the tip mod performances. If anyone can provide more on +/- of the Stewart tips, I am listening. I am particularly interested in effects to short-field performance vs "stock Pacer". I am also guessing that the "stock Pacer" is 135 HP and jumps a little slower than the 150 HP, and then there are prop variations, so I guess there are still many variables to consider when talking apples-to-apples performance. I am still deciding whether I want to install my Stewart tips.

I may not get to 600, but maybe 900 would get it done for me.

Thanks

Lou S.

Stephen
11-01-2009, 10:35 AM
Lou, the Stewart tips will make you plane a safer performer, with better low speed control and improved glide. The numbers that people have published in the past are not clear indicators of what you should expect in your plane and vary too much. Doug and Dan in the past have not publish numbers for performance change for their tips......remember each plane is slightly different, engines, rigging, props, weight and other mods all effect the planes performance. Just read what pilots say about VG's (the cheapest way to improve performance), some list big decreases in stall speeds, I didn't see that in my plane. The best change I got was when I reistalled Ferguson wing extension and tips on my plane that had Demmer's. The first landing was amazying, much better glide..stall dropped about 4-5 mph. It also, decreased my take-off distance.

Stewart tips do not add quit as much wing area as the other choices you currently have; Ron Sullivan or Cross-Winds which also use Hoerner style tip (no blocked views). I am ordering a set of Sullivan tips to put on a stock Pacer (PA-20-160), which I am currently test flying to get some clear baseline numbers before I do the modification. Final numbers will be in a few months. I would take anyones (mine included) performance numbers with a grain a salt and not necessarly use that information to predict how your plane will perform.

Good luck, Steve

Hey, I saw a small wad of Cubs, and a Pacer fight the infamous "west" into Lopez Island, yesterday.....nice surprise.

Pacer160
11-02-2009, 02:05 AM
Gents,
I installed a set of the Sullivan tips this summer with very pleasant results. I did some base line testing prior to the mod and found a 3-5 mph increase in cruise with other more significant differences.
First, I noticed that the plane is more stable in flight, a true pleasure to fly. Turns are smooth and controlled, as the aircraft is no longer so dependent on power settings. When you reduce power the a/c continues to glide desending at a smooth controlled rate. Flairs are smooth with minimum short wing landings.
The most significant diffence with the tips, which caps all the other claims, is flying with weight in the Pacer. Prior to the mod, at gross weight or near would require higher power settings to maintain cruise apeed. This I attribute to high wing loading resulting in more induced drag. It was my experience numerouse times, that the Pacer was responsive and had okay performance, until you put weight in it. With weight the a/c demanded very attentive flying, due to high sink rates and close attention to power settings.
Recently, I departed Hood RIver Oregon, 630' MSL 50deg F light wind,with full fuel and (3) guys 250+225+pilot at 170, climb out was at 80 mph 1000 FPM. We did some river scouting and never in the flight did I have the usual sinking feeling with slow flight and tight turns.
I do have vortex generators, 160Hp, yet the wing mod. far supassed the performance with the above mods. Power on stalls(one person 1/2 fuel 60deg F are not to be, wheel in chest at stop-- a/c hangs in the air at 45 Degree angle at 55mph indicated.
I did not add to the aileron area, thus my roll rate is not as effective as prior to the mod. This I do not find to present any unsafe operational challenges.

Steve has taken first place and me at second in our NW short take off and landing competition with his droop tips and similar wing area. This minor short lived feat, I attribute pilot lack of experience with the new wings, plus the weight of rocks (30#) found in my a/c, which carbon dating testing related the rocks to a formation found on Lopez island. :o

Rumor has it I have heard, that you can land a Pacer on the TOP of Mile High with these tips.
This Pacer was present at the Lopez "West"this week end. Testing with high cross winds proved that this wing mod allows flight operations into signifincant adverse conditions with a greater margin of safety and high passenger landing ratings.
Glad to supply photos of the insallation process if needed.

Steve Pierce
11-02-2009, 06:43 AM
Rumor has it I have heard, that you can land a Pacer on the TOP of Mile High with these tips.
:shock: :lol: I have a video of something like that somewhere. ;)

Lownslow
11-02-2009, 07:39 AM
Thanks again for the feedback. I am a couple of months away from refurbishing my wings. I will likely install the Stewart conversion, as I have heard mostly positive and little negative of the resulting performance. I will then provide some sea-level data for you when I get her together.

Lou S.

Stephen
11-02-2009, 09:46 AM
Gents,
Steve has taken first place and me at second in our NW short take off and landing competition with his droop tips and similar wing area. This minor short lived feat, I attribute pilot lack of experience with the new wings, plus the weight of rocks (30#) found in my a/c, which carbon dating testing related the rocks to a formation found on Lopez island. :o

Rumor has it I have heard, that you can land a Pacer on the TOP of Mile High with these tips.
This Pacer was present at the Lopez "West"this week end. Testing with high cross winds proved that this wing mod allows flight operations into signifincant adverse conditions with a greater margin of safety and high passenger landing ratings.
Glad to supply photos of the insallation process if needed.

It would be a good idea to post the Pacers "near miss" at Mile High. Although, his landing in the Lopez hurricane was OK, I'm sure I would have used much less runway.......You found the rocks???...Now the pressure is on....Got to get a Borer Prop.....Damn....

Do post some pictures, not everyone knowns about the Sullivan tips.

Pacer160
11-03-2009, 01:25 AM
Alright,
I will post my pictures in the next couple of days.

Borer props are verboten in this shoot out, as it is not how long a prop you have but how you use the prop you have.

"What happens at Mile high stays at Mile High" Better be carefull what I say to who. Appears we now have "Pictures"

Isn't there some club by the same name as this famous strip in the sky.

Stephen
11-03-2009, 10:29 AM
Isn't there some club by the same name as this famous strip in the sky.

We're too old to remember.

Bultaco Jim
11-04-2009, 12:07 AM
Speak for yourself! I just started dating again!?!?!?!???????

Stephen
11-04-2009, 08:56 AM
Good for you!!

While I can't speak for everyone, I certainly can for Dave and myself (that's with my wife's permission).

rocket 204
05-03-2010, 09:33 PM
question has anyone moved the ailerons 14 inches out towards the tip then squared the tip and then added fourteen inches to the flap i have been looking at my uncovered round tip wings and i think it will work what do you guys think thanks Rocket 204

Tadpole
05-03-2010, 09:42 PM
Trimmer has applied for an STC for.....


Move the aileron outboard 24" and then extends the flap outboard & inboard to the fuselage, as a part of this STC we may include the installation of an additional 18 gallon tank in either or both wings.

skydogk
05-04-2010, 09:24 AM
This exact mod has been done in years before FAA change 16 using the field approval process. It makes a great plane. I missed moving the ailerons outboard by about 6 months prior to change 16 and was really hoping somebody could STC it. I spoke to Eddie Trimmer on Sunday at the Alaskan Airmans Show. He informed me he just applied for the mod. Eddie will get this mod through, I'm sure. Just hang onto your hat and wait for Eddie's STC! It's comming! Other than that, there is no way the FAA will field approve it any longer!

Thanks Eddie!

skydogk

nicka
05-04-2010, 09:31 AM
Did he by any chance indicate if he had a possible time frame?

jay heil
05-04-2010, 07:26 PM
I thought i recently read a post from someone that Eddie had pretty much lost interest in pursueing this STC==== I have correspondence from him about this mod dated 2005 so its at least 5 years since he has filed "paperwork" for this STC I do hope he is pursuing it because I personally am waiting for it so I can do my pacer wings per his STC

skydogk
05-05-2010, 01:21 AM
OK. I didn't think I studdered. Eddie just applied last week for the STC. Having worked with the Anchorage ACO (Aircraft Certification Office) personally and knowing Eddie's experience ummm, there is no prediction. I'd like to believe six months or so, but truthfully, it's anybody's guess. I've been putting off recovering my wings just to do this mod, but the fabric isn't getting any better. I hope it comes soon!

skydogk

jay heil
05-05-2010, 03:32 PM
so um then may 1st 2005 was last week? man it seems longer ago then that but what ever I guees


From: Eddie Trimmer
To: Jay Heil
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: pacer mods

Hi Jay,

I have moved the ailerons our board and lengthened the flaps, this performed under a FAA Field Approval. I don't think that the ailerons really need to be any longer, just out to the end of the wing. I now have an application in with the FAA for a STC for moving the ailerons outboard and extending the flaps 24 inches. I have not tried VG's primarily due to the use of wing covers in the winter. The PA-18 tail feathers are OK if you can get them approved. I have gotten them approved in the past but they will no longer approve them up here. I also have an application in for a STC for both left & right seaplane doors, just a matter of time.

If your fuselage is straight, just replace the bad tubing and go for it. I don't know anything about the tube from the lower front up to the wing attach fitting area, someone's ides I suppose. I personally prefer the Hendricks tips over any of the drooped tips.

I don't care for any of the leading edge cuffs either or the wing fences, just my opinion.

I would like to know more about your propeller,make, model & Type certificate Number. We don't really have any good choices for props on the O-360.

You can verify with the FAA inspector about re-installing the rear door, shouldn't be a problem.

We are using mostly Goodyear 26 X 10.5 X 6 tires although 8:50's are OK.

There are endless alterations that you can perform, it's just a matter of deciding what you personally want.

If I can be of any help, just ask.

Thanks,

Eddie Trimmer
Trimmer Aviation
907-495-5724


and what do you know it was none other than you who knew exactly what post I was referring to when i said I read a post saying eddie was not pursuing the STC

I'm slooooowly working on a "one time STC" to do this mod. Last I heard, Eddie is not persuing this STC. I doubt you would get field approval for this, but talk to your FSDO.

What does Day Night have on this??? If it is an STC do you know the numer??

What wing extensions do you have?

VG's should help, you might get approval for a gap seal. X-Winds has an STC which includes a fence between the ailerons and flaps...might help with roll rate.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

skydogk11-27-2009, 04:30 PM
I've got the Cal Center STOL kit which includes fences between the ailerons and flaps. It also provides a leading edge cuff. I've thought about VGs but just haven't hit that part of the "to do" list. Anyway, maybe I should give Eddie a call and just see what he's got going on. I'm pretty sure he is working with the same FSDO as I, but maybe he's got better connections. The STC process seems cost prohibitive since the demand for this mod is likely to be very limited. If there is demand, let me know. I'd be happy persue an STC since I've been through that process before. Just not sure I could get my investment back.

skydogk
Attachments:(Click the filename

skydogk
05-05-2010, 03:47 PM
Well, if you've been following other threads on this topic, you'd notice that Eddie put the STC on the shelf for a little while. I was just repeating what Eddie told me on Sunday. Sorry I didn't get it in writing or demand it. Just take my word.

Anyway, for those waiting for this STC, Eddie is back on it and now it is back in the Anchorage ACO's hands. Hopefully it will be available relatively soon.

skydogk

jay heil
05-05-2010, 04:03 PM
Well, if you've been following other threads on this topic, you'd notice that Eddie put the STC on the shelf for a little while.

ah yeah I do read all the threads and i have an almost perfect memory for them



I was just repeating what Eddie told me on Sunday. Sorry I didn't get it in writing or demand it. Just take my word.

ohh so hes reapplied for it? why didnt you say that in the first place instead of jumping my butt for an innocent post that was more of a question than a staement

Anyway, for those waiting for this STC, Eddie is back on it and now it is back in the Anchorage ACO's hands. Hopefully it will be available relatively soon.

skydogk it

thats excellant I certainly am waiting for this to be a reality--------- oh and why dont you quit disrespecting people like that I ceretainly never did anything to you

nicka
05-05-2010, 04:41 PM
Skydogk I was interested in the fact that you heard Eddie submitted the paperwork for the STC, I am currently building my wings and was considereing holding off if he was going to get approval for an STC. I called Eddie and asked and he told me as well that he had submitted for the STC, but he had no idea how long it would take and pretty much told me, I would probably be better off building my current wing and look for another set to modify. So he confirmed it that it's in the works, but when could be anybodies guess. Hey Jay lighten up I didn't think you could get your butt jumped on an internet post.

avcan
05-06-2010, 01:47 AM
I e-mailed Eddie yesterday and asked him if having the Sullivan wing extension mod excluded the use of his aileron/flap STC when it is approved.
This was his answer (good news!).... "The Sullivan STC is acceptable with the wing alteration STC that I am working on. I have written into the STC that any approved wing tip installation may be used with the wing alteration STC".

Throttle Pusher
05-06-2010, 09:43 AM
Thats good news!!

Lownslow
12-29-2010, 12:41 PM
I missed the post of someone recently flying with the Stewart wing tip mod. Any further report of likes/dislikes? Short-field improvement?

Lou S.

mrdkoch
12-29-2010, 03:05 PM
Check out the Super 20 thread on another upcoming, but expensive, wing mod option.
M Koch

mrdkoch
12-29-2010, 03:07 PM
I had a TriPacer that I added Stewart tips and VG's to. Marked improvement in low speed control and decreased stall speed. I was very happy with the mod.
M Koch

Stephen
12-29-2010, 03:32 PM
I missed the post of someone recently flying with the Stewart wing tip mod. Any further report of likes/dislikes? Short-field improvement?

Lou S.

The Stewart is a good improvement over the stock wing tip and keeps the original look with the bow. It does not add as much wing area as the Sullivan or X-Winds wing tip mods.

Lownslow
12-30-2010, 09:35 AM
The last time I checked, I was not able to find any detailed info on-line for the x-winds or Sullivan. I'm probably not looking in the right place. Can anyone help with finding this?

Lou S.

nicka
12-30-2010, 10:29 AM
Try searching this site under "wing extensions" There are I think at least two airplanes on this site w/ the Crosswinds Stol, Crosswinds Stol has a website and you can call them and ask whatever you need to know, They are not e-mail guys. The Crosswinds Stol is a substantial mod and can be done in parts it is also extremely expensive. The other thing about leading edge cuffs is they allow for a really high angle of attack, when they finally do stall it can be fairly abrupt/exciting. Svenn's Aviation also has a wing tip STC to install Dakota Cub tips and square the end of the aileron.

Stephen
12-30-2010, 11:37 AM
http://www.crosswindsstol.com/ Charlie is a good guy to talk to.


Sullivan's phone number is in a couple of the threads....his mod is excellent!! and well worth the cost!!

Lownslow
12-30-2010, 12:06 PM
Thanks, maybe we'll get some more discussion or pics here.

Lou S.

avcan
12-30-2010, 01:38 PM
Stephen, are you still flying with the Sullivan mod? Is the reduction in roll rate an issue? How much does it affect stall speed, and takeoff/landing distances etc?

Throttle Pusher
12-30-2010, 03:25 PM
I have the X-wind wing tips and really like them. First I put on VG's that made a big difference, they lowered my landing speed by 8-9 MPH. Then when I put on the X-wind tips it lowered my landing speed by another 4-5 MPH. On a good day I can land at 35MPH but realisticly I can land at 40 mph consistantly. as for takeing off, Im in the air at 50mph comfortably. I can take off at 38 mph but its alittle squishy until 50 mph. Icant say enough about the VG's, with the VG's before I added the tips I was in Boise on a hot day,aft cg at gross wieght. The plane popped in the air at 35, Suprise suprise I wasent ready for that!. Since then havent tryed the same thing again. The wing tips added speed at alt. with a load. less angle of attack,it got it up on the step (so to speak.) This was done all with the O-290-D2 135 hp Lyc.
Hope this helps.

Ken

P.S. my original take off speed was 60-65 mph.(with outthe mods) I aslo cant say enough about the X-wind Tips.

Stephen
12-31-2010, 02:47 AM
Stephen, are you still flying with the Sullivan mod? Is the reduction in roll rate an issue? How much does it affect stall speed, and takeoff/landing distances etc?

I've installed Sullivan on customers planes...I recently reinstalled Ferguson's on my (I had Modras) ...since that STC had been previously installed on my plane. The Ferguson is basically the same as the Sullivan, except it uses a drooped tip instead of a Hoerner. I got a 3 to 4 mph decrease in stall speed and a much better glide. As far a reduced roll rate on the Sullivan installations...... it was not bad...well worth the improvements. I would love to fly a plane the has the complete X-Winds mods....I'm curious if the leading edge cuff makes a difference.

avcan
01-03-2011, 02:20 AM
Ken/Stephen, For the aircraft that had VG's before the wingtip mod, did you extend the VG's out to the new wingtip after modification?
This would obviously mean more VG's, and then it is a deviation from the VG STC ....

Steve Pierce
01-03-2011, 08:00 AM
Actually Micro provides extra templates and VGs for extended wings in their kits and STC.

Stephen
01-03-2011, 12:04 PM
Ken/Stephen, For the aircraft that had VG's before the wingtip mod, did you extend the VG's out to the new wingtip after modification?
This would obviously mean more VG's, and then it is a deviation from the VG STC ....

Yes.......

Throttle Pusher
01-03-2011, 12:36 PM
Ken/Stephen, For the aircraft that had VG's before the wingtip mod, did you extend the VG's out to the new wingtip after modification?
This would obviously mean more VG's, and then it is a deviation from the VG STC ....






Actually Micro provides extra templates and VGs for extended wings in their kits and STC.



Yep.........

davidmurray79
03-04-2014, 10:14 PM
What is the number one preferred wing tip mod? I am looking for the longest and one that squares off the ailerons.
Are there any kits available, most designers only seem to supply the stc and instructions, parts list etc.


I am so far leaning to the Scenn wing tip.


Any advice is hugely appreciated.


Regards
Dave

danP
03-04-2014, 10:23 PM
If I were choosing one it would be the Sullivan mod as is shown in this pic. Note the wings are quite extended and the performance is good according to those who have it.
6060

Pacer 24C
03-04-2014, 11:59 PM
Definitely Sullivan - hands down!!!

Prosaria
03-05-2014, 12:06 AM
What is the consensus on the Crosswinds tips?

stevesaircraft(Bri)
03-05-2014, 12:21 AM
The picture above are Sullivan tips that I installed... The ailerons are squared but stay the same length...
Svenn tips are similar in the way the mod is accomplished but with Dakota Cub fiberglass tips and ribs....
Been thinking about trying for a STC to extend the ailerons in conjunction with the Sullivan or Svenn tip, that would make a good mod...

Not sure how much longer Crosswind tips are..

Brian

mmoyle
03-05-2014, 03:54 AM
Ordered crosswind STOL tips....they're in Bethal at Ryan Air Storage....supposed to be here this week. Will give feed back.
Mark M.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatal

Stephen
03-05-2014, 04:51 AM
All three tips are very similar, they replace the end ribs with full length ribs, then add a fiberglass tip. The wing lengths should be similar, depending on the width of the tip. All three straighten the cap strips and install a plate. This is the tricky part. It seems a bit hokey but, wing loadings are small at the tips. You can order a carbon fiber tip for the Sullivan. With Sullivan you get the tip, STC and instructions. You order your own hardware and ribs. Someone should test all three for a comparison. A friend did this type of test using a J3. The tip not listed here is the Stewart. It keeps the rounded type tip but, has less wing area added.

As far as squaring off the aileron, Stewart does this the easy way...they rivit a small folded alumimun piece to square it. Then cover it with a fabric patch. I doubt you can tell any difference in roll rate.

davidmurray79
03-05-2014, 08:19 AM
So the consensus is the Sullivan tip is the better design from svenn/Sullivan? Or is it much of a muchness?!

I did call Ron in Alaska and he wasn't to sure about international shipping and also didn't have a website/email address so I think I'll go with the Svenn tip.

I got an email from Joshua re the svenn tip below,
From Ron,
What I have noticed about the wing tips is that the aircraft is much more stable. When I am on floats you can also tell that there is extra lift, how much, I am not sure, but it is noticeable. There is approximately 7 sq wing per side more.

I only sell the paperwork, but I have a parts list that I will attach so you can see. The wing parts from Dakota Cub are usually around $1400 I believe but it has been a while since I have ordered them myself. What you are basically doing is remove the parts from the aileron tip rib outboard and installing 3 full ribs and tips. You will also open up the spar endcaps and insert some .125" aluminum to replace the material that was cut out at the factory.


Guys thanks for you help, please keep the info coming in!!

davidmurray79
03-05-2014, 08:31 AM
So the consensus is the Sullivan tip is the better design from svenn/Sullivan? Or is it much of a muchness?!

I did call Ron in Alaska and he wasn't to sure about international shipping and also didn't have a website/email address so I think I'll go with the Svenn tip.

I got an email from Joshua re the svenn tip below,
From Ron,
What I have noticed about the wing tips is that the aircraft is much more stable. When I am on floats you can also tell that there is extra lift, how much, I am not sure, but it is noticeable. There is approximately 7 sq wing per side more.

I only sell the paperwork, but I have a parts list that I will attach so you can see. The wing parts from Dakota Cub are usually around $1400 I believe but it has been a while since I have ordered them myself. What you are basically doing is remove the parts from the aileron tip rib outboard and installing 3 full ribs and tips. You will also open up the spar endcaps and insert some .125" aluminum to replace the material that was cut out at the factory.


Guys thanks for you help, please keep the info coming in!!

Stephen
03-05-2014, 10:43 AM
I am sure you will like the Svenn mod, I don't think you see much difference with any of the mids. While, I like the Sullivan and Ron is a good guy. He needs a website and someone doing his mailing. Maybe, he will sell the STC someday to someone who would run the business more actively.

danP
03-05-2014, 11:36 AM
The picture above are Sullivan tips that I installed... The ailerons are squared but stay the same length...
Svenn tips are similar in the way the mod is accomplished but with Dakota Cub fiberglass tips and ribs....
Been thinking about trying for a STC to extend the ailerons in conjunction with the Sullivan or Svenn tip, that would make a good mod...

Not sure how much longer Crosswind tips are..

Brian

Brian, Trimmer is working on this and Dakota has their new slotted wing design with extended flaps and ailerons moved out. Is it possible you guys could share the cost and get this STC done?

chopper12
03-05-2014, 11:38 AM
I installed the Sullivan tips and the nice thing about them is they are 13 inches wide each, thus adding over 2 ft to the wing span themselves.Take a look at a picture of the Sullivan tip compared to the other tips for width.
Get one of the Alaska guys to get the tips from Ron and ship them to you if Ron doesn't want to do international shipping.

stevesaircraft(Bri)
03-05-2014, 06:53 PM
Brian, Trimmer is working on this and Dakota has their new slotted wing design with extended flaps and ailerons moved out. Is it possible you guys could share the cost and get this STC done?

Yes, Eddie has been working on it... For at least 10 years now... Last I talked to him he had it in limbo...
Dakota's wing is a complete replacement... It is NOT going to be something you can do by modifying your existing wings...
I know of and have a copy of a 337 field approval for an airplane that had extended ailerons based off the old day and night STC for Super Cubs... If I was to go through with STC approval I would base it off of that using existing tips available.

Brian.

Stephen
03-06-2014, 12:25 AM
Yes, Eddie has been working on it... For at least 10 years now... Last I talked to him he had it in limbo...
Dakota's wing is a complete replacement... It is NOT going to be something you can do by modifying your existing wings...
I know of and have a copy of a 337 field approval for an airplane that had extended ailerons based off the old day and night STC for Super Cubs... If I was to go through with STC approval I would base it off of that using existing tips available.

Brian.

I have talked to Eddie numerous times about this STC and Brian is correct he is not activily working on it. I have this flap/aileron STC with ACO currently and, I am waiting on a written OK to do the mod to my Pacer. The load calculations are over 20 pages and has taken me several years, I have worked through every calculation with the FAA engineer. This load analysis would have cost a great deal if I had used a DER. After I do the mod it will then go through static and flight tests requiring that I put my plane in expremental. After all the time I have into the project it will only be a "one time STC"...it might go on for another year or so to get a multiple STC. I would love to see this mod available.

Tyler Arnold
03-08-2014, 07:57 PM
Where can I purchase the Sullivan STC? I have looked around with no results. Thanks in advance

pinkgas
03-08-2014, 08:33 PM
If you add to the length of your wings, do you still have short wing Piper?

stevesaircraft(Bri)
03-08-2014, 10:22 PM
Where can I purchase the Sullivan STC? I have looked around with no results. Thanks in advance

Directly from Ron Sullivan.... I do not have his contact number at home but can look it up at work on Monday.... Someone else here might also have it..

Brian

stevesaircraft(Bri)
03-08-2014, 10:23 PM
If you add to the length of your wings, do you still have short wing Piper?

How about we call them medium wing Pipers... 😜

Throttle Pusher
03-10-2014, 11:14 PM
I have the Crosswind tips on my plane, I put them on back around the turn of the century.(man that makes me feel old)
I have nothing but praise for the mod as well as the company. All parts came with it including rivets,very complete. When I ordered them they asked if I wanted the tips and ribbs already put together. well in the end I siad no becouse of the extra shipping costs. But this would lower the build time. It took me two weekends from start to finnish. (it was pretty strait forward) At the time I had the O-290-D2 onboard and the tips helped out significantly. Loaded at alt. I went faster,it gave me a better glide ratio and slower stall speed. The only draw back I noticed was alittle less aleron effectiveness. at first I was a little concernd, but after flying it in windy conditions on the flat and in the mountains It was not a problem.
As I have said before I cant say enough, Besides theres also the cool looking factor as well:icon_biggrin:

txfirefighter628
01-04-2015, 08:57 PM
I was thinking of doing this wing tip mod on my PA-22/20 project and was wondering what everybody thought of them. I'd really like to hear from guys who have flown there plane before and after the mod, to see if they really noticed a performance difference, but any info on this STC would be appreciated.

taildraggerpilot
01-04-2015, 09:27 PM
Didn't notice much difference in performance. The wing area increase is only about 2.5 sq ft, however, due to the design, there should be more lift since an extra full rib bay is added. The best performance mod I experienced was from installing VG's. I like the look of the stewart tips, and the mod was pretty easy the airplane flies nice, but can't say I noticed much difference in performance.

Clayton Harper
01-05-2015, 12:54 AM
Didn't notice much difference in performance. The wing area increase is only about 2.5 sq ft, however, due to the design, there should be more lift since an extra full rib bay is added. The best performance mod I experienced was from installing VG's. I like the look of the stewart tips, and the mod was pretty easy the airplane flies nice, but can't say I noticed much difference in performance.
Had you flown the airplane much before you did the Stewart Tips?

Stephen
01-05-2015, 01:17 AM
You will get better performance out of the Sullivan tip but, you loose the bow style tip.

Lownslow
01-05-2015, 08:35 AM
I have waited for others to give their opinions, but here goes. I asked the same question a few years back, when I was rebuilding my 22/20. I had already purchased the kit, but then had second thoughts about installing them. I got some limited response from others experience on this site, but I think Stephen's advice back then was that they would make my airplane a safer and more solid-flying airplane. I decided to install them.

The installation process was a bit what I thought somewhat unusual, and seemed "home-built-ish", but then I was very satisfied with the final installation. The steel tube bow will hold its shape indefinitely. I like the built-in lighting bracket, and its is very sound. I was very satisfied with the covering and how it finished out.

When it was time to test and verify the flying performance improvements, I had not flown a 22/20 before at all to compare to. I had only owned and had recently been flying a TriPacer, and one other, that I had somewhat mastered and had become very familiar with, and had flown Supercubs 30+ years ago. When it was time, my tailwheel CFI and I test flew her, together bumping 500 (Lbs) and 20 Gal of fuel. Having a humid and 90-something degree day, wasn't what I wanted, but it was what we had here in South Texas (Ugh Hugh). Long-story-short here, I was immediately impressed with the climb performance, and how she handled, that far-surpassed what I had experienced in either TriPacer. Since then, I have flown her close to 100 hours and have enjoyed what I consider an exceptional airplane. I could go on and on how she impresses me (and others) with what she does, but I am sold that the Stewart tips add a lot to my plane, far beyond the tailwheel conversion. I refer to her many times, as my "poor man's SuperCub".
I will stop there, and I can answer more questions if you would like. Best of luck with your decision.

Lou

Jim Hann
01-05-2015, 09:08 AM
I haven't flown my "new" wings with the Stewart tips, I hope to this spring. I will say that I have had exemplary customer service from Stewart's.

That said, some of the engineering does look a bit "homebuilt" like Lownslow says but it is definitely more than adequate to get the job done. I do wish I had added a little more felt over the rivets on the sheetmetal, possibly even just in between them, because mine (I didn't install them) have a bit of a scalloped look. Oh well, in 30 years when I recover it again... 8)

Clayton Harper
01-05-2015, 09:18 AM
TGP,
I had hoped you had flown your shortwing before you installed the Stewart Wing Tips. The Stewards did little testing before. What they say now, and I am looking for conformation, is that "an idle descent, trimmed to 70 MPH will give you about a 1000 FPM descent with stock tips, vs 500 FPM descent with the Stewart Tips." They also claim to burn less gas than other SWP on the same trip.
Full Disclosure as they say on the financial shows, I own Stewart Tips.
My estimate: 2.5 SqFt. increase in area on a 140 SqFt., maybe 10 SqFt. increase in "lifting surface", and a lower drag type tip has to help.

txfirefighter628
01-05-2015, 12:00 PM
Lownslow, that's pretty much what I'm going for is a poor mans super cub with a back seat I can squeeze the kids into. What engine does your 22/20 have, and do you remember what hp engines were on the tri pacers you compare it to?

Semper Fi
01-05-2015, 12:12 PM
I have Plane Booster tips on my clipper, they add an extra rib and than add the tips. I haven't flown a short wing cub without them, I can say it likes slow flying. Trim for 60 mph and idle I get a mild 500 maybe 600 fpm descent and if more than 60 on final plan on burning a lot of runway on landing. Climbing out it does well at 65 mph.

txfirefighter628
01-05-2015, 03:16 PM
I called and talked to Dan Stewart today. He Said that slow flight performance is increased in that at on final at 70mph a stock tri pacer will descended at 1000fpm and one with the Stewart tip will descend at 500fpm, like Clayton said. He also said that at cruise speeds there is less drag leading to increased cruise speeds or increased fuel economy at stock speeds. He said the STC is fairly simple to fabricate the parts except the wing bow which he would sell for $100 if I didn't think I could fabricate my own. I'm going to get him a check in the mail. Thanks for everybody's experience with these wing tips.

Lownslow
01-05-2015, 05:50 PM
Mine has the O-320 150 HP with 58 pitch prop. Just right for what I want. The Tripes were 135's, both with fresh engines and 57 pitch props. We could get together sometime and I can demonstrate. I can brag till the cows come home, but seeing is believing.

Lou

taildraggerpilot
01-05-2015, 07:46 PM
Had you flown the airplane much before you did the Stewart Tips?
Clayton:
I had only flown the airplane about 10 hrs before installing the tips. However, I did not notice a decrease in fuel consumption nor an increase in cruise speed. If anything my airplane is slightly slower. I don't think the slower speed is related to the wingtips, but more a function of cowl geometry. In slow flight and fully stalled, the airplane behaved the same as without the stewart tips. Fully stalled, the airplane would gently fall like a leaf, oscillating from side to side. With the VG's the airplane won't stall power off and full aft yoke, it just descends at 800 ft/min and has full aileron authority fully stalled. Power on, it will hang from the prop and eventually break, but the nose only has to be lowered slightly (still well above the horizon) to regain controlled flight.

Lownslow
01-05-2015, 10:06 PM
I haven't flown my "new" wings with the Stewart tips, I hope to this spring. I will say that I have had exemplary customer service from Stewart's.

That said, some of the engineering does look a bit "homebuilt" like Lownslow says but it is definitely more than adequate to get the job done. I do wish I had added a little more felt over the rivets on the sheetmetal, possibly even just in between them, because mine (I didn't install them) have a bit of a scalloped look. Oh well, in 30 years when I recover it again... 8)

Yep, the rivets show up, all right at about 5 foot away. Fortunately my paint job is a 10-footer, so it's OK

Clayton Harper
01-06-2015, 07:21 AM
I didn't like the rivet bumps either, so i used some Polyfiber "Super Fill". I also didn't like the way the fabric stretched between the bottom of the the outboard rib and the tip bow. For that I used the "Super Fill" to fair that in. I'll try to get pictures today.

Jim
01-06-2015, 11:42 AM
Hi,

....He Said that slow flight performance is increased in that at on final at 70mph a stock tri pacer will descended at 1000fpm and one with the Stewart tip will descend at 500fpm.....

What rpm would you guess that would be using? Doubling the engine off glide distance seems to be......well.....alot.

Jim Hann
01-06-2015, 02:40 PM
Fortunately my paint job is a 10-footer, so it's OK
I might be generous if I say my paint job is a ten footer, probably 15-20. That is what happens when you teach yourself. The thing I learned most about? Paint booth design and lighting!

Clayton Harper
01-06-2015, 07:49 PM
Hi,

....He Said that slow flight performance is increased in that at on final at 70mph a stock tri pacer will descended at 1000fpm and one with the Stewart tip will descend at 500fpm.....

What rpm would you guess that would be using? Doubling the engine off glide distance seems to be......well.....alot.

....Idle....

Jim
01-06-2015, 08:03 PM
Hi,

Thanks Clayton. Got me curious what my Pacer will do at idle and 70 with it's Madras tips.

Clayton Harper
01-07-2015, 06:07 AM
I didn't like the rivet bumps either, so i used some Polyfiber "Super Fill". I also didn't like the way the fabric stretched between the bottom of the the outboard rib and the tip bow. For that I used the "Super Fill" to fair that in. I'll try to get pictures today.
A friend of mine Steve Thompson did this to his Pacer wing and I copied him.

Jim Hann
01-07-2015, 10:55 AM
A friend of mine Steve Thompson did this to his Pacer wing and I copied him.

That looks nice, I didn't want to get into filler, oh well... In the next rebuild! :-)

HunterJ
01-10-2015, 04:15 PM
Hi All
Somehwere's back a ways a kind person posted drawings and instructions for a spar splice similar to the Sullivan conversion.
Been trawling through post after post trying to find it again!!!!! When I first saw it I thought I must get that coz I'm going to need it - didn't get there did I.
Finding lots of interesting things that I have missed along the way during my searching but burning way toooo much time at the puter and not on the project!
Can anyone help with what thread it was in or even repost it.
Many thanks
HunterJ

Stephen
01-10-2015, 05:24 PM
Piper has a service bulletin to make a spar splice outboard of the strut. The sullivan stc extends the spars by inserting a plate where the cap strips are. The STC describes this job and it can be done in a long weekend. Yes, pictures have been posted in the past.

HunterJ
01-10-2015, 07:08 PM
Hi Stephen
Thanx heaps for responding - mine is an Experimental based on a Wagabond with a lot of Mr Pipers ideas incorporated.
Have been looking at Brian's (Steve's A/C) and others mod pics - all amazingly helpful. Also have the Piper SB for the spar splice
What I want to do is the extension using the plate insertion method.
The drawings that were posted previously had full instructions, list of materials and importantly all the dimensions which I can't get from the pics.
Soooo still hoping someone can remember who/what thread it was in.
Cheers
HunterJ

dbudd
01-10-2015, 07:38 PM
Hi All
Somehwere's back a ways a kind person posted drawings and instructions for a spar splice similar to the Sullivan conversion.
Been trawling through post after post trying to find it again!!!!! When I first saw it I thought I must get that coz I'm going to need it - didn't get there did I.
Finding lots of interesting things that I have missed along the way during my searching but burning way toooo much time at the puter and not on the project!
Can anyone help with what thread it was in or even repost it.
Many thanks
HunterJ
http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/images/icons/icon1.png Try searching Sullivan Wing Extension started by Stephen

Jim
01-10-2015, 08:00 PM
Hi,

Maybe the file attached to post #4?
http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/showthread.php?5722-spar-splice&highlight=spar+splice

HunterJ
01-10-2015, 09:51 PM
Hi Jim
Thanks for the tip. It led me to another thread and bingo I found what I was looking for!!!!
This site and group is the best.
Cheers
HunterJ

Stephen
01-11-2015, 12:29 AM
Hi Stephen
Thanx heaps for responding - mine is an Experimental based on a Wagabond with a lot of Mr Pipers ideas incorporated.
Have been looking at Brian's (Steve's A/C) and others mod pics - all amazingly helpful. Also have the Piper SB for the spar splice
What I want to do is the extension using the plate insertion method.
The drawings that were posted previously had full instructions, list of materials and importantly all the dimensions which I can't get from the pics.
Soooo still hoping someone can remember who/what thread it was in.
Cheers
HunterJ

I did a spar splice myself to extend my wings since the cap strips had been removed for the Demmer tips. On an experimental project I would think you could get at least a 31 foot span. The plates are cut to slide in the spars on both sides of the Web. I used . 090 material 16 inches long. The rivits were spaced about one inch apart, same spacing on the rows. Maybe someone remembers the Piper SB number for the spar splice.

HunterJ
01-11-2015, 12:56 AM
My spars still have the cap strips. Was planning to extend the width only to the end of the existing cap strips and install the Stewarts tips.
One question though, do you still use double plates if the cap strips are still in place?
Should add that my wings are Colt wings. Hadn't planned to extend the ailerons but I guess a third hinge shouldn't be a issue if I do.

Steve Pierce
01-11-2015, 09:46 AM
I like the stock tips. When you add wing area outboard of the aileron it effects the aileron effectivness. Having learned to fly in a Clipper I really like the aileron responce which is very effective in a crosswind. I was not so impressed with the Pacer and Tri-Pacer shorter ailerons. Being spoiled by the Clipper I am probably biased. ;) Plus I like the classic look and light weight of the stock wing tip. I can say that when I was operating my stock winged Pacer off of gravel bars with my Super Cub buddies I was wishing for more wing area. Since no two Short Wings are usually the same it would be fun to fly the same plane back to back with different tips.

Clayton Harper
01-11-2015, 11:47 AM
HiunterJ,

Is you airplane in an "Australian like Experimental Class", where you can do pretty much as you please?

HunterJ
01-11-2015, 02:53 PM
Hi Clayton
Yes - Its called Recreational down here. Has to have an MTOW of 600kg

Unfortunately, I have to build to a fairly tight budget - Wag plans for the fuse and using Colt wings. I am probably going to get lynched by the assembled here but I'm using a Rotax 914 115hp (only because I had access to a very very reasonably priced one in good order) with a three bladed composite - serious power to weight advantage over Lyc/Conti and metal prop combo.

it worked out that it should deliver similar performance to 125hp Colt because of the major weight difference.
Cheers
HunterJ

Stephen
01-11-2015, 03:42 PM
My spars still have the cap strips. Was planning to extend the width only to the end of the existing cap strips and install the Stewarts tips.
One question though, do you still use double plates if the cap strips are still in place?
Should add that my wings are Colt wings. Hadn't planned to extend the ailerons but I guess a third hinge shouldn't be a issue if I do.

A single plate is all that is used with the cap strips. Wing loads tapper off towards the tips. I am not sure how the Stewart tip attaches, which might be an issue. You might use a longer plate and bolt it in more locations. Putting a strong wooden or stamped rib on the end of the spars will help. Also, adding a compression strut might work. And, running full leading edge outboard will stiffen the wing. But, I would not get too crazy adding weight. Does the Colt have Pacer ailerons? If so, you can lengthen the outboard 6 inches without a third hinge. Also, moving the aileron outboard might be easier than adding a third hinge.

The Rotax should work well. This will be a nice flying Vag.

Clayton Harper
01-11-2015, 06:26 PM
HunterJ,
With the Rotax and a tight cowl, should be cool.
I'll try to take some pics tomorrow of the Stewart wing tip plate.
Tell us more about the "Recreation" please.

HunterJ
01-12-2015, 02:01 AM
Thanx for the info.
Was planning to use Univair stamped outer ribs but I guess wood is OK too.
Also planning to run full leading edge for the D box strength.
Have not checked the difference between Colt and Pacer ailerons - tonight's little project.
I have soaked up so much info from you guys - now it's time to put it into practice!
For as long as I can remember I have wanted to own and fly a 'bush plane' (Super Cub) so my little jobby is my budget induced compromise!
Again, thanx for your help. Really appreciate it.
Cheers
HunterJ

PACERGUY
01-12-2015, 02:05 AM
Go with the Univair stamped outer rib, very easy to attach most any wingtip to it.
DENNY

HunterJ
01-12-2015, 02:17 AM
Hey Clayton
Have done some figuring and with the engine further forward the cowl is longer and should look pretty cool.
Thanx heaps for taking the time to get some pics of the Stewart install - really appreciate it.
The Recreational Category is for amateur built 51% and over or factory built - all to be single engine, max 2 seats and speed and stall limits apply. Wrap all that un to a MTOW of 600kg (1344lbs). There are lighter categories but not my bag - you guys would classify them as ultralights.
A J3 will go straight in as a factory built! A good buddy of mine uses a 46 J3 for instruction and will do my tw training with him.
Again many thanx for the help from you guys.
Cheers
HunterJ

Clayton Harper
01-13-2015, 09:42 AM
Here is a picture of the rear spar with the main spar in the background.

HunterJ
01-13-2015, 02:55 PM
Thanx for the pic Clayton
Were your original cap strips taken off at the end of the web?
Mine are still all the way to the bow - in that case would the extension plate only go to the end of the cap strip?.
Again, many thanks for taking the time to take the pic.
Cheers
HunterJ

Clayton Harper
01-13-2015, 06:26 PM
The STC had you cut them off. Now that I look at it, I think the cap strips would not be long enough. I think you'll need to use the short pieces of spar. There has to be some bent spars down there.

HunterJ
01-14-2015, 06:33 AM
Hmmm sections of spar - good idea.
Thanx for the info and suggestion.
Cheers
HunterJ

cook11
06-21-2018, 11:42 PM
Looking into wing tips and I am wondering which ones work the best for the short wing ? Is it true that Stewart doesn’t sell kits anymore? Is it true that you lose aileron authority with the wing tip extensions? Thanks in advance group!

Stephen
06-22-2018, 02:38 AM
All wing tip extensions reduce aileron authority. Less lever arm. Sullivan tips has the greatest surface area increase therefore, it will lower stall and increase glide the most. Steward tips maintain the wing tip cure which is little value except appearance. There is more posted if you do a quick search. Good luck.

dhillier
06-22-2018, 06:17 AM
I have been in contact with Mr. Stewart by email - he does not sell kits any more. I did ask if he had any spare bit of kits left - he said he did have a few bits but was not forthcoming with selling them. I haven't been in contact with Mr. Sullivan yet as I haven't been to ANC from the UK recently - does anyone have information on cost of his STC and if a kit is still available?
The Dakota tips that are sometimes referred to with his STC do not appear on the Dakota website anymore - I have tried to contact Dakota to ask if they still supply them, but to no avail.

Regards

smcnutt
06-22-2018, 07:18 AM
I've heard about loss of aileron authority in shortwings at slow speeds. We have the drooped tips on our plane and I have never noticed any reduced aileron authority. I suspect that the 'droop' helps keep the air under the wings where the ailerons can work. However I've not flown a shortwing without the droop tips for comparison and this is just my wild theory with nothing to back it up. Most people don't like the look of the droop tips but I'm fine with the look or without.

Sent from my SM-T350 using ShortWingPipers.Org mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=95463)

Stephen
06-22-2018, 09:23 AM
I've heard about loss of aileron authority in shortwings at slow speeds. We have the drooped tips on our plane and I have never noticed any reduced aileron authority. I suspect that the 'droop' helps keep the air under the wings where the ailerons can work. However I've not flown a shortwing without the droop tips for comparison and this is just my wild theory with nothing to back it up. Most people don't like the look of the droop tips but I'm fine with the look or without.

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You have the Madras (Demmer) tip, it differs from other extended tips because it is not an extended wing. Dimmer shortened the wing by cutting off the cap strips then adding their tip. When I purchased by plane in the early 80's it also had Madras tips. It also has the old Ferguson STC. About 12 years ago I lengthened my wing using a spar splice then reinstalled the Madras tip, combining both STC's. Which is approved by the FAA. My plane flew much differently. Slower low end speeds, better glide and no cruise change. But, it did have a slower roll rate, mostly noticeable at low speeds when needed on gusty approaches.

Marc Davis
06-22-2018, 08:03 PM
I was researching the various wing tips found on shortwings and thought it might be useful to gather the info in one place.
Please correct me if I got something wrong, add info about other tips if I missed some, or provide better pictures.

Madras/Deamer
Cut spar caps (shorter wing than most tips)
Replace last rib with full size plywood or stamped rib.
Install tip on last rib.
Note distance between aileron and last rib
13671

Fergusson / Plane Booster
Bend cap strips straight (adds wing length)
Replace second to last rib with full size
Replace last rib with plywood or stamped rib.
Install tip on last rib.
Note distance between aileron and last rib
13672
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Crosswinds STOL
Not very common
Like a Sullivan with stall fence on top
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Sullivan / Hendricks
Bend cap strips straight (adds wing length)
Replace second to last rib with full size
Replace last rib with stamped rib.
Install tip on last rib.
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Stewarts
Bend cap strips straight (adds wing length)
Replace last rib with full size ribFabric over a bow like stock
Install bow similar to stock
Cover with fabric
13676


Svenn's Aviation / Dakota Cub
STC to install Dakota tip.
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andya
06-22-2018, 08:19 PM
Mark, nice pics to show the differences, everyone has reason for a preference, I still like the looks of the original, will take what it gives in flying qualities and performance.
nice work though

Marc Davis
06-22-2018, 09:31 PM
My plane came with the Fergison tips and the full CrosswingSTOL kit including leading edge cuff, gap seals, stall fences, and flaps extended inboard. I have about 500 hours in shortwings. I can land this machine about 10 MPH slower than a stock wing. I can get off in about the same distance as a Tri-Pacer with an estimated 180hp (160hp with flow ported cylinders and tuned length exhaust). I'd say it has at least a 20% shorter takeoff roll as compared to a stock Tri-Pacer with the same prop. I do like the stock look but at least I'm getting something for my money. :-)
Having said that. Keeping the plane light makes the most difference. Next on my list is the Svenn's aircraft battery mod. That shaves 12.2 Lbs.

rlc113
06-23-2018, 12:44 AM
Thanks for the info Marc.

Anyone know anything about the Northland wingtip STC? Seems to be similar to a Sullivan but with a splitter plate type tip on the end (flat closeout with about 2 inch additional width added all the way around the tip)

dhillier
06-23-2018, 03:30 AM
From my research so far:

Stewart Tips.

Contact Dan Stewart - danrstewart@frontier.com or Marjie Stewart Hgr21@nwi.net or hanger21@frontier.net

Requires 2x 18" of front spar and 2x 17" of rear spar.
Need to construct 2x tip bow to spar mounts - U shape from 16G ASTM.
Fabricate curved wing tip bow from 1/2" EMT.
Requires one full size rib per wing.
Can use standard sized nav lights at wing tip.

$350 for STC paperwork only.



Svenn Wing Tip.

Parts list - http://svennsaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Wing-Tip-Parts-List.pdf

This STC requires DakotaCub fibreglass tips - however, these do not appear to be available on the http://dakotacub.com website. I tried to contact them but to no avail.

STC paperwork only $260.


If anyone has any detailed info about cost or parts list for the Sullivan tips, i would be grateful. I will contact him next timeI am in ANC.
Being based in the UK, the main restriction is the supply of parts. For example, if I can't get some suitable cut off spar pieces then buying univar spars and shipping them to the Uk and paying import duties and taxes makes it uneconomical.

walt.buskey
06-23-2018, 07:09 AM
Here's another shot of Sullivan tips:

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Steve Pierce
06-23-2018, 07:53 AM
Thanks for all the pictures Mark. I merged a lot of wing tip threads with yours so anyone interested in all the different wing tips can find almost all the information in one place.

Stephen
06-23-2018, 09:55 AM
Installing, Sullivan, Madras or Ferguson, I use a full size stamped rib for the outter rib.

Marc Davis
06-23-2018, 09:57 AM
Thanks Steve
Any chance my original post could stay at on the first page? I intended it to act as a easy to find summary. Right now It's buried on page 13.

Stephan
I'll edit my post to reflect that possibility.

andya
06-23-2018, 11:33 AM
Being based in the UK, the main restriction is the supply of parts. For example, if I can't get some suitable cut off spar pieces then buying univar spars and shipping them to the Uk and paying import duties and taxes makes it uneconomical.


Have to believe there are folks here that have damaged spars around that you could get some short pieces to make the converstion.

Steve Pierce
06-23-2018, 12:40 PM
Thanks Steve
Any chance my original post could stay at on the first page? I intended it to act as a easy to find summary. Right now It's buried on page 13.

Done, http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/showthread.php?12348-Field-Guide-to-Shortwing-Wingtip-STC-s

Jim Hann
06-24-2018, 10:34 PM
I was researching the various wing tips found on shortwings and thought it might be useful to gather the info in one place.
Please correct me if I got something wrong, add info about other tips if I missed some, or provide better pictures.



Stewarts
Bend cap strips straight (adds wing length)
Replace last rib with full size ribFabric over a bow like stock
Install bow similar to stock
Cover with fabric
13676


That is my tip in the picture. The spars are spliced no bending the capstrips and no span is added, still 29' 3" or so. The difference is the wing area, with the Horner style squared off wing (not really elliptical any more) it gives you some extra wing without extra length. The full size rib is from a J-3 (I think the butt rib from the opposite side). The actual bow is conduit. Dan told me they quit selling the kits because it was becoming a PITA to keep all the PMA stuff going with the FAA. Marc hit one of the things I really like about these tips, no fiberglass! All fabric just like the original.

dhillier
06-25-2018, 05:32 AM
Does anyone have any up to date knowledge on availability of the Sullivan STc as a kit and its cost or if Dakota wing tips are needed for this and available?

fabricman
06-28-2018, 04:25 PM
His mission is twofold.
1: a little better stol performance and
2: better slow speed aileron control.
In my opinion the best setup is Demer/Madras or Plane Booster tips with VG's. This is How our pacer is set up. Unfortunately, the Demer tips are no longer in production therefore not available. Cub Crafters bought out Plane Boosters and changed the tip profile. The new tip has not been certified on the Pacers therefore are unavailable. Crosswinds are too ugly, sorry but they just are. So that leaves us with either Hedrick's or Hanger21. VG's are on order and will be installed probably before we even do the wingtip conversion. Eddie Trimmer put him on to the Hendricks tip. I have never installed one. I have installed the Stewart tip and like thier looks. There is a Cub on the field with the Hendricks tip and it is OK. The question is, which gives the PACER better control and performance?

Alaska guys can chime in at any time here :lol:

Brian.

Brian.....I have the Stewart tips on my Pacer with VG,s and 160HP. I could not be happier with the handling and performance. Short field performance is in the range of good Super Cub STOL, roll rate is almost as good as my old stock original Pacer. Just a good, honest performer with fair speed despite 29 inch tires. Hauls a good load. Around 200 + hours up here in AK and it makes a really good “bush pick-up truck”. I have another Pacer project back in Arkansas with the wing already covered, and I like this one so well, I will put the Stewart tips and VG’s on it.

Fabricman


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stevesaircraft(Bri)
06-29-2018, 10:49 PM
Brian.....I have the Stewart tips on my Pacer with VG,s and 160HP. I could not be happier with the handling and performance. Short field performance is in the range of good Super Cub STOL, roll rate is almost as good as my old stock original Pacer. Just a good, honest performer with fair speed despite 29 inch tires. Hauls a good load. Around 200 + hours up here in AK and it makes a really good “bush pick-up truck”. I have another Pacer project back in Arkansas with the wing already covered, and I like this one so well, I will put the Stewart tips and VG’s on it.

Fabricman


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Steve merged a bunch of threads into one here... my original post was in 2008... hard to believe that was 10 years ago... That airplane got Sullivan Tips installed on it... The owner sold it to buy a Maule...

Brian



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Steve Pierce
06-30-2018, 07:01 AM
;110280']Steve merged a bunch of threads into one here... my original post was in 2008... hard to believe that was 10 years ago... That airplane got Sullivan Tips installed on it... The owner sold it to buy a Maule...

Brian



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It lived just east of me for several years and was a regular on our river camping trips. It now resides in Anchorage.

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