Turning stall

[Bob.shea]

Has anyone managed to get their plane to roll in base to final turn situation? I have never really tried to practice this. My tri pacer mushes and drops like a rock, when practicing slow flight and stalls, but has never tried to roll over on me. Can you fall into a spin stall as fast as say an RV, or would the pacer drop like a rock first alerting you to the impending spin?

[Fred Mayes]

Bob I will try to answer your question. If you stay coordinated you will not go into a stall spin accident when turning from base to final. We all know it is hard to make a SW to even stall. If you are turning base to final and holding heavy top rudder it would be in a slip then the top wing could stall and roll over the top, or bottom rudder you will be in a skid then the lower wing could stall and it would roll under. In a short wing this would be hard to do especially if your speed is where it should be and not making steep turns. You are right, the SW have very good control and do not try to roll. Some aircraft break in a stall quick but the SW don't do that. My Pacer mushes and descends about 500 ft per minute. That is not like a rock but some airplane break sharply and dive and that is more like a rock.

[rideandfly]

some airplane break sharply and dive and that is more like a rock.

Used to do this quite a bit in a Cessna Aerobat (on purpose) at altitude, not at pattern altitude. We would bank at 25 degrees with almost full rudder in the direction of turn with up elevator until the stall broke in the direction of the bank, skidding under the bottom break. The airplane rolls quickly in the direction of the bank, sometimes inverted, and pitches down to almost vertical while entering the spin. When this stall happens in the Aerobat, it happens quickly. It used to take at least 500 to 700' of altitude during recovery. Have had students to enter a spin before recovery because correct control inputs were not used after the stall.

[Bob.shea]

that was what I am really wondering, has anyone's plane rolled while stalling in the turn? I have not tried on purpose to do this. in every attitude I can safely get into in slow flight, mt tri pacer just starts dropping never one wing or the other just plain elevators down.I make a point of keeping my wings pretty flat while slowing the plane down.

[Fred Mayes]

Bob, to get the SW's to do a stall spin position the pilot would have to really be doing drastic rudder movements. It would be almost impossible. In fact it might be impossible. I probably should not say that but if you are a pilot any pilot should know not to make severe movements of controls at low altitude and slow flight. I have noticed during student training students are reluctant to use the rudder with the ailerons in turning but when they get to the landing phase of their training they try to use the rudder to line the airplane up with the runway. With some airplanes that is a problem and it is a bad habit.

Fred Mayes
Pacer N7478K

[Steve Pierce]

The only way I have gotten a Short Wing to drop a wing is to abruptly (almost violently) cross control while slow.

[Bob.shea]

Steve and Fred thanks, That is exactly what i thought. My question came from watching videos of low wing planes and how fast they can flip in cross control situations in slow flight. I have tried but could not get my plane to start to roll. I find my plane with drop wing tips is really quite predictable is slow flight.

[evanr42]

The only way I have gotten a Short Wing to drop a wing is to abruptly (almost violently) cross control while slow.
+1, and high density altitude. Never managed a break in the stall below 7,500DA, and even then it took coaxing, especially with power off.

[Subsonic]

+1, and high density altitude. Never managed a break in the stall below 7,500DA, and even then it took coaxing, especially with power off.
Concur with power off. Try with power on - it'll stall. Just pull back and leave it there. Simple flat recovery - no break right or left that I didn't induce.

[Glen Geller]

Seems a Tri-Pacer, with that thick high-lift wing and the aileron/rudder interconnect springs correctly installed, should be nicely coordinated in the turn and not likely to stall as compared to your garden variety RV 4/6 etc.
The clue you are going too slowly would be the rapidly approaching Earth and the VSI pointing down.
That was the point of it, to make it safe and predictable and take away the nasty habits.

GG

[Subsonic]

Seems a Tri-Pacer, with that thick high-lift wing and the aileron/rudder interconnect springs correctly installed, should be nicely coordinated in the turn and not likely to stall as compared to your garden variety RV 4/6 etc.
The clue you are going too slowly would be the rapidly approaching Earth and the VSI pointing down.
That was the point of it, to make it safe and predictable and take away the nasty habits.

GG
No question, Glen. So forgiving. I recall a turn to final to a small paved runway - Winslow AZ, I think, when I was considering a go round. I was in high and short - approaching and nearly at the numbers from an engine out sort of approach, normal to the runway. We were in strange country, cruising a bit low and the airport we were looking for sort of popped up and surprised us. I went to full flaps and cranked the trim as I put it in a skidding right turn to final with left wing down to lose altitude. It dropped right onto the approach line. My right seat passenger - a very good pilot with multiple ratings and owner of many planes slid into me during the skid and said something like, "geez". I touched down lightly a few hundred feet down the strip and coasted out to the second option to taxi. I asked him later about it and he said, "I just wasn't ready for that." I've also done just the straight ahead half-mile out and high sink at 6-800 fpm with engine idling - so not to be too fast across the numbers. Just hold it at 50 mph and it will sink. I think the ability of a SW to sink in a very controlled - even significantly cross-controlled fashion when you want is a real asset. Anyone know if a Maule M5 or M7 will do that?

[rideandfly]

Experimented with the Vag and found power off coordinated turning stalls and 1500RPM coordinated turning stalls to be gentle without wing drop. Tried full power level coordinated stalls with full aft stick, indicated airspeed below the lowest number on the ASI with very steep deck angle and the C-85 powered Vag did not feel like it stalled, did not pay attention to the altimeter for altitude loss/gain, and did not hold the Vag in this steep deck angle too long. Power off level coordinated stalls very gentle without wing drop.

I'm sure you can get wing drops with un-coordinated stalls, but found the Vag to have nice stall manners with coordinated flight.