Sutton Exhaust on a Pacer

[Steve Pierce]

I talked to Brian Sutton with Professional Pilots, Inc about his exhaust system for the Super Cub. He has had several people get field approvals to install it on Pacers and he sent me a copy of the Super Cub STC paperwork and copies of these field approvals. Rex is going to see about getting a field approval for the exhaust system on his Pacer. The system is basically a Grumman Tiger exhaust, mounting the muffler in front of the oil sump instead of against the firewall. It requires a hole in the bottom cowl for the tail pipe. Brian designed this system to allow for the rear mounted prop governor on his STC for a constant speed prop on the Super Cub. He said he will pursue an STC for the Pacer and Tri-Pacer but needs time and a donor Tri-Pacer to work out the clearance issues for the nose gear. This will probably take some time but will be in the works. Nice to know there could be another exhaust option without the muffler AD.

http://www.propilotsinc.com/photos/exhaust3s.jpg

http://www.propilotsinc.com/photos/comparisons.jpg

https://www.propilotsinc.com/exhaust-conversion/ (http://www.propilotsinc.com/exhaust.html)

[Stephen]

Is there really room for this system on a T-Pacer and the nose wheel?

It would be great to have another choice which is also lighter.

[rmalone]

I have several pictures from another short winger who had his field approved. The STC includes going to a more modern oil cooler and moving it behind the #4 cylinder. You end up building a new lower cowl but you get a real clean install.

[Steve Pierce]

Rex, Get Kim to post those pictures. ;)

[BatPacer]

Put the Sutton system on my Pacer last year. It is a very clean installation. It is superior to original in every way BUT you do have to get used to the stack sticking out the front part of the cowl.

Paul[attachment=1:1xfc1bpx]WrangellsYukonClamming07 042.jpg[/attachment:1xfc1bpx][attachment=0:1xfc1bpx]Sutton.jpg[/attachment:1xfc1bpx]

[Steve Pierce]

Paul, Nice installation. Did you notice any difference in the round air filter or have you ever compared it with a square?

[BatPacer]

Sorry. No point of reference there. The round airbox is all I know on this engine. My bottom cowl is fairly beat and when/if I ever install a new one, I've thought about going to a square box.

I do have paperwork on that installation if anyone needs it pending the Suttons getting their STC ammended.

Paul

[rmalone]

I will see if I can get more pictures posted.

[halestorm]

Thanks for starting this thread Steve.

I also got Brian's paperwork and have been picking away at a field approval. My FSDO(or perhaps just my inspector...) is very particular about 337s these days and I'm afraid the previously approved ones Brian gave me won't be much good. Anybody else out there with picky FSDOs having any luck with stuff like this?

-Sam

[Stephen]

Does anyone know what the rationale is for not simply mounting the oil cooler directly to the rear of the engine baffel?

[taildraggerpilot]

Does anyone know what the rationale is for not simply mounting the oil cooler directly to the rear of the engine baffel?

That's what I did, but I did add a doubler and tripler to strengthen the engine baffle. These images are of my installation and what I included in 337.

[halestorm]

Stephen,

I've often wondered why the oil coolers are where they are on these things. All the sheet metal airplanes, Pipers and Cessnas, have a rear mounted oil cooler. Certainly cleans up the appearance of the airplane. It may have to do with how much better the aluminum oil coolers are at cooling than earlier types. Or perhaps it just didn't occur to the engineering types that the cooler would function just as well back there as up front until the late 50's.

I am very pleased with my rear mounted oil cooler. Someone needs to come up with a proper STC for moving it, Steve Pierce?

[rexandkim]

Here are more pixs of the Sutton that Jeurgen sent me.

Rex

[Stephen]

Is there any info on how the Sutton exhaust performs, compared to the stock Piper system? I sure looks like a much cleaner installation.

[Steve Pierce]

Brian claims no gain but several of the Super Cub folks I know got an RPM increase.

[Bultaco Jim]

You guys really need to consider the Leading Edge exhaust system at http://www.wemakeyoufly.com and check out the PA 22 pictures. It works great. Jim

[rmalone]

Nice looking system but the sutton system sure is simple and clean. :)

[Stephen]

And Lighter, cheaper and maybe soon STC'd!

[Steve Pierce]

There is an STC now. Is more expensive and heavier but like everything in aviation there has to be a compromise. ;)

http://www.kwaviationinc.com/id4.html

http://www.kwaviationinc.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/2exhausts.jpg.w300h224.jpg

http://www.kwaviationinc.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/TripacerLH.jpg.w300h225.jpg

[stevesaircraft(Bri)]

The leading edge system is a nice system, but I have a hard time justifying paying $3200.00 for it. The Sutton system is simple, but it puts the outlet pipe out of the cowling and in my opinion makes is ugly. The ugliest system is the Univair 0-360 STC exhaust. The muffler can, pipes and outlet stick out of the lower cowling everywhere.

It would be interesting to me to find out how these systems are approved. When we did our 0-360 constant speed engine STC, we had to go through all sorts of hoops on our exhaust system. The FAA required noise abatement testing and a carburetor heat rise of 90 degrees. We went through 3 different muffler cans to get the carb heat rise required by the FAA. The aircraft will drop close to 200 RPM on the ground when you pull the carb heat. Now, if there are different rules to approving exhaust systems on previous engine conversions or stock engines, we may consider doing a separate STC for just our exhaust system only. Especially if there is any interest in it.

Brian.

[rexandkim]

From the other shortwing site. Seems Leading Edge did have some cracking in the past.

http://www.shortwing.org/forum/showthre ... ading+edge (http://www.shortwing.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2062&highlight=leading+edge)

[Larry Huntley]

Does anyone know what the rationale is for not simply mounting the oil cooler directly to the rear of the engine baffel?

That's what I did, but I did add a doubler and tripler to strengthen the engine baffle. These images are of my installation and what I included in 337.

That is exactly what I need to do. I am impressed with your installation. I would appreciate a copy of your 337 if you don't mind. It would save me a lot of time and thinking. ;o) thanx, Larry Huntley

[Steve Pierce]

Brian, The Sutton exhaust was originally approved with Brian doing the noise test via calculations. Lee at Leading Edge filed a Congressional complaint after the system was approved. Brian Sutton stepped up and spent a lot of money and tested it. The actual noise came within .2 db of his calculations.

[halestorm]

Yeah, I'm a big fan of the Sutton exhaust but an even bigger fan of Brian Sutton and his Dad, great guys. Why would Lee be so concerned about a little competition? Just because the Sutton system is lighter, simpler, half the price? Makes you wonder...

I would sure be happy to have a reasonably priced exhaust system for us shortwingers, that stock system is almost dangerous, IMHO.

-Sam

[Stephen]

I've got my oil cooler also mounted behind the cylinder but, I noticed that in the picture above it is mounted horizontally and I was curious as to why.

[stevesaircraft(Bri)]

Steve,

Nice to know that Sutton did that. I am still considering getting our exhaust system on its own STC. Will have to look up the regs on that.

Stephen,

Which picture are you talking about?
All of the rear oil coolers I have seen have been mounted vertically on the rear baffle. Our STC 0-360 conversion puts it horizontally on the "front" baffle. We were able to do this because the cowling is 2 inches longer due to the constant speed propellor. That gave us enough room to put it there. The baffle has been strengthened for the installation.

[attachment=1:1ahy8k90]battery and fuel sys 017.jpg[/attachment:1ahy8k90]

[attachment=0:1ahy8k90]battery and fuel sys 016.jpg[/attachment:1ahy8k90]

Brian.

[Stephen]

I guess that I was looking at BatPacer's pictures, I think he's experimental so he can do what he wants.

What a life those guys have.

[BatPacer]

Stephen,

Didn't catch on that you were talking about my oil cooler before now. Need to shout at me next time!

I WISH that my plane was experimental. The oil cooler on the firewall is a legal installation. Put it there to keep from fatiguing and eventually cracking that nice expensive baffling that Randy Rubbert built for me. Randy put a 3in duct on the back side of the baffel and I ran scat down to a plenum over the oil cooler. Very similar to what you find on the older 172s.

Paul

[Stephen]

Paul,
I keep a picture of you plane in my hanger, I'm impressed to hear that you have made so many mods and got them approved. You've got to give us the details on your plane. I assume that the oil cooler installed as you've done works fine and keeps the engine as its proper temps??

[stevesaircraft(Bri)]

Couple of pictures of Univair's 0-360 conversion exhaust system.

[attachment=0:2m5c3er6]Pacer 003.jpg[/attachment:2m5c3er6]

[attachment=1:2m5c3er6]Pacer 001.jpg[/attachment:2m5c3er6]

Paul,

I to am impressed with your machine. I can see that you have updated with a lot of Trimmers mods also.

Has anyone really taken a look at Univairs modification to the 0-320 airbox to run on the 0-360. All they do is weld on a couple of flanges to mount a larger filter on. But if you really look at that, all the flanges do is block the incoming air behind the filter. You are still only going to get as much air as what the original 0-320 filter gives you. Our 0-360 conversion on our Pacer was based on the Univair. We had to get a one time STC because we changed to 1/2 inch fuel lines and put a modified standard exhaust system on. But we ran the aircraft for years with the Univair airbox mod. Our 0-360 constant speed mod has its own airbox that we designed specifically for the larger air filter. Here a little while ago we put one of our new airboxes on our Pacer. We gained RPM on static. I don't remember exactly how much but it was close to 50.
Ill try to get a couple of pictures of the airbox on the airplane in the above photos to illistrate my point.

Paul, I notice that you have a round air filter on yours. Probably one of the best things you could have done for it. Lots of incoming air to feed those pony's.

Brian.

[Bultaco Jim]

What does the Sutton and Univair exhaust systems cost? Jim

[Steve Pierce]

Sutton is $1750 complete.

http://www.propilotsinc.com/exhaust.html

[Stephen]

Does anyone know the actual weight difference between the stock system and Sutton exhaust?

[BatPacer]

Four pounds in favor of the Sutton system!

[Stephen]

Here are some pictures of the Sutton Exhaust System on my Pacer

[attachment=0:36k4f708]Exhaust2.jpg[/attachment:36k4f708]

[attachment=2:36k4f708]Exhaust mod 6.jpg[/attachment:36k4f708]

[attachment=1:36k4f708]Exhaust mod5.jpg[/attachment:36k4f708]

Lots of room to work.

[rmalone]

Looks good Stephen. I am planning to use the Sutton on mine. Did you close up all of the holes on the front of the cowling and move your oil cooler back to the rear baffle?

[Steve Pierce]

Looks good Stephen. How about the lower cowl? Any problems or tricks?

[Stephen]

[attachment=0:17r587k8]Exhaust1.jpg[/attachment:17r587k8]

Moving the oil cooler to the rear is required. Which I had done previously. This mod also requires using a small (light wight) starter.

You remove the air inlet from the lower cowl and patch it over. Also, you need to cut and reinforce a new hole for the exhaust. This was all easily done in a couple of hours between talking to the usual flow of pilots stopping by.

The Sutton exhaust does not need the internal baffles check since are are none.

I really like the installation as far to cleaning up the engine area and creating more room to work.

There is a net savings of about 6 pounds.

According to the local riff-raff (pilots) the sound is not louder, but lower and deeper.

[halestorm]

OK, sounds cool. Are you getting more static rpms than before?

-Sam

[BatPacer]

Nice installation Stephen. And...a good decision. Bet you are going to miss yanking that muffler in and out each annual, aren't you?

I've heard the same comment related to my plane that the system sounds deeper and more hearty than the stock exhaust.

Paul

[Stephen]

Static rpm is the same.

Paul, did you cut any of the length of the tail pipe?

Ooooh sure, I'm going to miss doing the exhaust inspection...

[BatPacer]

No I didn't cut the stack any. I have, however, thought about cutting it with a bevel to the rear (like the old stack) and possibly improve exhaust scavaging. Don't think it could hurt any.

Paul

[SuperPacer]

Stephen,

Good looking installation. What were some of your considerations that pointed to the Sutton Exhaust over the Leading Edge Exhaust System (LEES)? Were /are you thinking of a C/S prop in the future, and needed the room for the governer? Is the Sutton Exhaust system more affordable / available than the LEES (currently at over $4,000.00 & slow to ship on ocassion)?

From your comments about not getting more static RPM, maybe performance is not the real driver for the Sutton, rather the ease of maintenance and price over rule the performance of the LEES. We have 4 or 5 Pacers here in Ogden UT flying with the LEES and all have seen 75 to 100 RPM increase and typically, run slightly cooler temps. Wish I could say they were 5 knots faster but that might be a stretch!!

Great Photos and enjoy the day,

John Kobbeman
Ogden Utah

[Stephen]

I've heard mixed results on the Leads exhaust for the SC as far as performance inprovement. It has a weight disadvantage and mechanically is more complex and difficult to work around. Plus, I could not justify the cost. Sutton has many advantages and performance is not decreased and may be a little better. 100 rpm improvement is more than I've heard of SC's using Leads exhaust getting around here. Altitude and temperature should make some differences.

[Bultaco Jim]

Stephen, you mentioned the Leading Edge "disadvantages". Weight - 2 1/2 pounds more than stock. Mechanically complex - It eliminates the cross-over tubes, the oval muffler has more room than stock (you can remove the muff in place), and, most importantly, it's BOLT-ON. No moving the oil cooler, no cutting the cowl. Performance - I got a 90 - 95 RPM increase.
But it is expensive, no doubt. Aren't we lucky to have choices?

[Stephen]

The Sutton system does require a rear a mounted oil cooler and light weight starter and it will only work on Pacers or 0320 Lyc, Clippers, also some minor cowl work needs to be done.

You can check out Sutton exhaust systems at http://www.propilotsinc.com/.

I can't specifically testify about static power increase of the Sutton exhaust sytem since I also had my carburator overhauled and my reference is based on the old carb. Check SC site for many more opinions on exhaust systems.

[nd_rice]

Thinking about having a Sutton put it.

Would this be a STC or 337 for a Tri Pacer with an 0-320. I saw it worked on the Pacer and I correct in assuming that it will work on a Tri Pacer?

Also curious about everyones thoughts or opinions after having installed for awhile.

[Stephen]

Sorry, I don't think it will work on a T-Pacer. The nose wheel would be in the way. Look in the Gallery where I've got some pictures posted.

[Steve Pierce]

Brian Sutton told me he would like to get an STC for his exhaust on the Pacer and Tri-Pacer. Now that I have a Tri-Pacer I intend to discuss this project with him and see if I can help get it certified. Several of us were talking about this at dinner last night.

[Jetfever]

Sutton gets my vote. KISS. Simple lightweight and proven "modern" design. I will buy this system if/when an STC is available. (PA 22/20 160). My A&P and IA have no interest assisting me with a 337. They say it is too difficult to work with the FAA.

My Exhaust has over 2,300 hours and has been repaired several times, I would love to have this new "no AD" system.

Of course I will also need an STC for moving the oil cooler, New or repaired nose bowl, etc. It's never just a simple bolt on mod is it?! :)

Exhaust pipe tip needs a "slash cut" to try and loose the "loose tooth" look. :D

[Stephen]

Sutton gets my vote. KISS. Simple lightweight and proven "modern" design. I will buy this system if/when an STC is available. (PA 22/20 160). My A&P and IA have no interest assisting me with a 337. They say it is too difficult to work with the FAA.

My Exhaust has over 2,300 hours and has been repaired several times, I would love to have this new "no AD" system.

Of course I will also need an STC for moving the oil cooler, New or repaired nose bowl, etc. It's never just a simple bolt on mod is it?! :)

Exhaust pipe tip needs a "slash cut" to try and loose the "loose tooth" look. :D

The Sutton Exhaust is all that you say. I had no problem getting a Field Approval, my PMI felt it was an improvement over the stock system. Sutton will supply you with all the paper work, although it would be nice if he got an STC for the Pacer. The Sutton STC has moving the oil cooler (which is another improvemnt) as part of their instructions. I like the fang look.

[Steve Pierce]

Rex, Have you gotten the field approval on your Sutton Exhaust System yet? If so could you post a copy of your paperwork. Some other members have contacted me about information on this.

[JoeB]

I'd like to ask a (likely stupid newbie) question.
This Sutton exhaust system is available for 0-320 and 0-360 engines, so it's a not approved on the 0-290, right?

[Steve Pierce]

It is approved on the Super Cub but I am not sure if on the O-290 powered Super Cub. I will have to ask Brian Sutton about that, It will bolt up the same.

[JoeB]

oops, I just caught that after I posted and you beat me to the update. Didn't realize this exhaust was for super cub!
This would be a great option for my Pacer when I get to that point, if it works with a 0-290!

[BatPacer]

I have an approved 337 for installation on a 180hp Pacer that I'll send you Steve. I will be nice to see the Pacer and Tri-Pacer added to the STC.

[Steve Pierce]

I need to call Brian and see if I can get him interested in this again. The Tri-Pacer is gonna be a bit more work though.

[cammons3]

Holding my breath in MEM. I just turned in 337s to MEM-FSDO for getting Tweet upgraded to Sutton's exhaust and Odyssey Battery/rewiring (http://shortwingpipers.org/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=913 (http://shortwingpipers.org/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=913)). I graciously used Stephen's 337s as boilerplates as well as photos for field approval proposals on my O320-A2A powered PA20 (STC SA1-167). Also, Brian will provide you with a copy of the Sutton Exhaust STC along with multiple copies of 337s for variously configured Shortwings, but not Tripes (yet). Anyway, the GA-Front Line Mgr said I should have my approved docs by the end of the week (ok, but I'm not that naive). However, when/if they come back approved, I'll ensure they're posted w/ links to supporting/accepted data.

[halestorm]

Funny, I'm in exactly the same place with my versions of Stephen's boiler plate 337s for exhaust and battery move/change/rewire. I was promised in person today by my PMI from the SEA FSDO to have a signature, well, soon. Once the ink is dry I would be happy to post my block 8 or share a copy of the whole thing with interested parties. I'm not really in too big a hurry as "Shorty" is somewhat laid up for the winter....

Sam

[rmalone]

Looks good.

[Stephen]

Sam, that's a far cry from the float plane I saw last summer here at Lopez. Sure glad to see it progressing.

[halestorm]

Yes Stephen it is. Just about done fabbing/fitting new fuel lines per Eddie's STC, well mostly per anyways.

Planning on spraying the interior color this month. We've done all the gluing so far right where the photo was taken, which is in my unfinished basement. Can you imagine doing that with Poly-Fiber? Needless to say I've been enjoying the Stewart System. You can plan on seeing me this summer at the Lopez airport. Oh no, now I've done it....

Here's a photo of all the material Dan Stewart removed and replaced from the fuselage.

Sam

[Steve Pierce]

That looks familiar. :shock:

[Stephen]

Nice collection Sam

[stevesaircraft(Bri)]

you should have seen the tubes that come out of the back end of our -18A

[Todd]

I'm about ready to order my Sutton exhaust. Maybe we could all lean on him and convince him us shortwingers are worth doing an STC for.

I've also got a bucket worth of rusty tubes from the bottom of my '59 bird. As long as the bucket of rusty steel is smaller than the quantity of tubes not replaced I guess we're still winning! :lol:

[cammons3]

Received the approved 337s in the mail yesterday from MEM-FSDO for both the Sutton Exhaust and Odyssey Battery/rewire upgrades. Looks like Tweet's getting her Christmas present. I'll get both 337s scanned and posted. Much thanks to Stephen Adams and Brian Sutton for your assistance!

[Steve Pierce]

Awesome.

[Stephen]

NIce!

[cammons3]

FWIW, here's an approved 337 for Sutton's exhaust on a PA-20/150. We've not completed the mod yet, so the IA signature is still blank. I'll post the Odyssey Battery 337 at the Odyssey Battery Modification posting (http://shortwingpipers.org/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=733 (http://shortwingpipers.org/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=733)).
I'm sure interest in many of these mods will increase, maybe we should look for a bucket on the forum to put all 337s. Thoughts?
Thanks again for all your advice/assistance.

[Steve Pierce]

Great, thanks Curt.

[cammons3]

Tweet got her Christmas present in the other day. Cleaned out the BIG box from Dawley Exhaust. Once out Tweet wanted to show off her newest add-on. Really easy to install (so far), although all pix are loose-fit right now. Took about an hour from box-opening to loose-fit install.

[Steve Pierce]

Looking good Curt. Cutting the hole in the right place in the cowl the first time might create a challenge. ;)

[cammons3]

Looking good Curt. Cutting the hole in the right place in the cowl the first time might create a challenge. ;)
Don't know if you know Julian Smith from down here in the 'hood, but once I make the cowl, I'm going to get his assist on the exhaust hole placement. By profession he's an MD11 Sim Instructor, but he's also a helluva machinist, currently building a Bearhawk, and is quite anal. :ugeek:
Holler if ya get a few while local. You have my work hours this week.

[rmalone]

Looks good Curt. Those baffles look familiar as well.

[Stephen]

When cutting the hole for the tail pipe.... measure more than once.....But, you have a little leaway, since the hole needs to be reinforced with a patch. I got the hole close in the cowl, then made my reinforment pach with an nice looking oblong hole, adjusted the patch evenly to the tail pipe, then modified the hole in the cowl (which made it look professional) then rivited the patch to the cowl.

[Steve Pierce]

Is the tail pipe removable like some of the Super Cubs?

[cammons3]

Is the tail pipe removable like some of the Super Cubs?
Negative; welded to the can.

[wacreech]

Stephen,

I would like to see the pictures you attached to your message, but haven't figured out how to open them. Any suggestions?

Bill Creech

[cammons3]

Stephen,
I would like to see the pictures you attached to your message, but haven't figured out how to open them. Any suggestions?
Bill Creech

Bill,
Upgrading of the platform has caused the pix to fall offline. I've put Tweet's work-in-progress in Photos (http://www.shortwingpipers.org/photopost/), fwiw. I'm also putting an Odyssey Battery on the firewall. With the old (junk) exhaust system gone, there's a cavern of room behind the accessory case now... :smile:
Brian and Dave (Professional Pilots, Inc (http://www.propilotsinc.com/)) are very congenial gentlemen farmers, and went far to support my 337 process.

[Pacer 24C]

Talked to Brian and ordered up the Sutton exhaust - already have the oil cooler relocate and light weight starter - so figured it was a natural thing to do. Nothing wrong with my stock system - infact if anyone wants one - mine is excellent with low time muffler - it will be available in a few weeks very reasonable - I have a Yankee 150 taildragger with the similar exhaust as the Sutton - not looking for any performance difference - but just for easier maintenance. Will run the Field Approval either thru Seattle or Portland FSDO - should go smooth since they have both done recent approvals - mine is a 53 22/20 135

[rmalone]

I have the Sutton and like it. When I was doing my rebuild the stock exhaust had almost burned a hole through my firewall. Easy decision for me. New exhaust, new firewall.

[Pacer 20]

Hi!

I have a Pa-20, 1951 in the Owner Maintenance categorie in Quebec, Canada. I decided to change my good running 0-290D for a fresh overhauled 0-320! I'm interested to install a Sutton exhaust system, but I try to figure if the assembly fit under the cowling?
I have a big oil cooler mounted on the rear left side of the engine and I replaced the generator by a new Alternator system.

Thanks!

[Pacer 24C]

I have a Sutton exhaust installed via a field approval thru SEA FSDO. It should clear the cowling - the 2 things you need is the relocated oil cooler as you have and a light weight starter- the Alternator should clear as does the stock 20 amp generator.

[northernguy]

I have the Sutton on my 0-320. I experienced a bit of rubbing between the shroud and my air inlet box. I had to peen the shroud very slightly to get a proper fit. No issues since.

[eskflyer]

The oil cooler DOES NOT have to be moved to the back. it can be but is optional to do so. A light weight starter does have to be installed though.

[Gilbert Pierce]

Rear oil cooler, Skytec starter, Interav alternator, O-320 Clipper. No issues installing. Once I located the exhaust hole it bolted right up. Had to move the cabin heat air inlet to the right front baffle as the original was right where the exhaust exited. Actually made installing the cabin heat hose easier.

[Stephen]

My plane has 0-320, rear oil cooler, light weight alternator and starter, rear oil cooler and the tighter profile PA 20 cowling and I had no problems installing the Sutton exhaust. All clearances are fine.

[Steve Pierce]

Merged lots of threads on the Sutton exhaust. 9 pages of good info.

[Pacer42Z]

I have the Sutton exhaust for over seven years now (moved oil cooler, light weight starter and alternator) on field approval by the Washington DC FSDO. No issues as far as fitting my PA22/20 on the O320. After over 700 hours on it there are no issues and the cabin heat output is about the same as it was with the stock exhaust. I like that the engine compartment looks so much less crowded with this exhaust.

Juergen
Pacer N3342Z

[Lownslow]

I am interested. Would anyone have pics for those of us imaginary-compromised?

Lou

[wyandot jim]

Their web site/
http://propilotsinc.com/exhaust.html

[rsrguy3]

7 years after the thread was started and still no STC? Steve did you ever get it fit for the tripe?

[Steve Pierce]

No way to make aSutton exhaust fit a Tri-Pacer. Too much stuff under there between the nose gear and the steering arms.

[rsrguy3]

That's what I figured I was just wondering after reading one of your old posts.

[ysifly2]

well, in the process of annual inspection and removed exhaust to trace down source of exhaust leak, and decided to order up the Sutton exhaust - already had the rear oil cooler, B&C light weight starter and alternator... so this seemed like the next best step.

Thought I would post a couple pictures of the in-process steps and how I located the spot to cut the hole. One method would have been to use a cardboard pattern of the lower cowl (which I started to do) and then had another idea that worked out really well... so FWIW here a couple pictures of the setup and result...

First did a test fit install of the new Sutton Exhaust (wow... what a nice product from Brian Sutton and Dawley!) I should note that in this case, I have the tail of the Pacer up on a black and decker workmate, not quite level attitude, but pretty close. So as I was looking at the system got to thinking if there was a way to translate the angle of the exhaust down and be able to then remove it and carry the line back up to the bottom cowl...
So, with a floor jack that I have, thought that it looked pretty close, and sure enough. I then attached (duck tape) a length of PVC pipe and then slide a cardboard tube over that and positioned until the cardboard tube lined up in the center of the exhaust pipe.
9130

I then secured my angle finder to the floor and removed the exhaust, re-installed the lower cowl and then postponed the cardboard tube and was able to take a lighter weight cardboard paper and cut it at an angle and slid up the angle of the tube until I intersected the cowling and then traced the outline.

Wanting to double check my results and still being apprehensive to cut a hole in the lower cowl, I was still thinking of how I could double check the angle and position that I had determined with the cardboard. The idea of laser light can to mind, but all that we had readily available were the pen-light style and there was too much variation in the location of the laser dot, a very slight movement of the laser pointer moved the dot a lot.

Well... leaping from that idea, and recognizing that I already had a tube lined up... flashlight projection
grab my handy dandy mag light, zip tie, and presto, I had a light projection tool.
91319132

dimmed the lights and with the mag light on, gave a nice oval projection onto the bottom cowl... grabbed the pen and traced the outline of the "spot-light". next step, remove the cowl and start cutting the hole. first pass and I had an initial hole, just big enough to get the exhaust pipe thru...
9133

Then, time to re-install the exhaust for a test fit, which proved out the hole was in the right location, just needed to be enlarged, but I was able to verify in which direction, and approximately how much I needed to enlarge. Pull it back off and make cut pass number two... the result>
91349135

Was able to get the cowling all the way on and secured. Grabbed the pen and gauge and have marked the cowling for the .5" gap around the circumference and will be making the final cut and fits next time out.



Bryan

[Steve Pierce]

Great idea Bryan. Thanks for that. Looks great.

[Pacer42Z]

Bryan, very clever. I need to show this to my mechanic. I had the Sutton exhaust installed during the engine overhaul. My mechanic butchered my lower cowling and it has a patch now where he cut the first hole.

Juergen
Pacer 3342Z

[TxAgfisher]

Was there ever an STC done on this?

[Steve Pierce]

No, no STC as of yet.

[Netilus]

I am replacing the stock exhaust with the Sutton exhaust system on my PA22/20-150. Does anyone have an approved 337 for this exhaust specific to the PA22/20 they would be willing to share? My FSDO (BHM) says all the supporting documents I can gather would be helpful. Thanks!

[Gilbert Pierce]

PM me your email address and I will send you my collection.

[Jim Hann]

PM me your email address and I will send you my collection.

Gilbert, do you have a copy of mine?

[dhillier]

Hopefully a pdf of a 337 for a Sutton exhaust on a PA20 is attached.

If only i could fit one to the Clipper.


12185

[Pacer42Z]

I believe Gilbert has mine. If not, PM me with your E-mail address and I will send it to you. Have mine now for ten years and over 1,000 hours with no problems.

Juergen

[Gilbert Pierce]

Gilbert, do you have a copy of mine?


Yes, and Juergen's as well.
i sent copies of five different approved 337's to those that resonded to my earlier post to PM me their email address.

[Steve Pierce]

Can you post them here or email to me and I will. That way we will have them posted for everyone.

[Tp109]

Are there hp gains or any other advantages by switching from stock to this Sutton?

[Steve Pierce]

You do gain some rpm. It also frees up the space behind the engine, weighs less and doesn't have all that heat against the firewall which radiates back in summer.

[ysifly2]

You do gain some rpm. It also frees up the space behind the engine, weighs less and doesn't have all that heat against the firewall which radiates back in summer.

And no recurring AD inspection


Bryan


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[JPerkins]

Is there an AMOC letter you can obtain for the AD?

[Steve Pierce]

Yes here is a copy I had scanned.

[Gilbert Pierce]

Sutton Exhaust STC, AMOC and approved 337"s moved to http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/showthread.php?11825-Sutton-exhaust-approvals

[cammons3]

... another thread on the subject: http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/showthread.php?4533-Sutton-Exhaust-on-a-Pacer

[Steve Pierce]

... another thread on the subject: http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/showthread.php?4533-Sutton-Exhaust-on-a-Pacer

I merged them together.

[JPerkins]

There's a used one that fits an O-320 on Alaskaslist.com for $1300.
Boss lady said no :cry:

[Steve Pierce]

A friend is delivering one to Oshkosh for my Super Cub.

[rgoering]

I know this is an old thread, but can you resend or repost those pics? What is there, I can't open. Or email to thegoeringgroup@gmail.com

[Steve Pierce]

well, in the process of annual inspection and removed exhaust to trace down source of exhaust leak, and decided to order up the Sutton exhaust - already had the rear oil cooler, B&C light weight starter and alternator... so this seemed like the next best step.

Thought I would post a couple pictures of the in-process steps and how I located the spot to cut the hole. One method would have been to use a cardboard pattern of the lower cowl (which I started to do) and then had another idea that worked out really well... so FWIW here a couple pictures of the setup and result...

First did a test fit install of the new Sutton Exhaust (wow... what a nice product from Brian Sutton and Dawley!) I should note that in this case, I have the tail of the Pacer up on a black and decker workmate, not quite level attitude, but pretty close. So as I was looking at the system got to thinking if there was a way to translate the angle of the exhaust down and be able to then remove it and carry the line back up to the bottom cowl...
So, with a floor jack that I have, thought that it looked pretty close, and sure enough. I then attached (duck tape) a length of PVC pipe and then slide a cardboard tube over that and positioned until the cardboard tube lined up in the center of the exhaust pipe.
9130

I then secured my angle finder to the floor and removed the exhaust, re-installed the lower cowl and then postponed the cardboard tube and was able to take a lighter weight cardboard paper and cut it at an angle and slid up the angle of the tube until I intersected the cowling and then traced the outline.

Wanting to double check my results and still being apprehensive to cut a hole in the lower cowl, I was still thinking of how I could double check the angle and position that I had determined with the cardboard. The idea of laser light can to mind, but all that we had readily available were the pen-light style and there was too much variation in the location of the laser dot, a very slight movement of the laser pointer moved the dot a lot.

Well... leaping from that idea, and recognizing that I already had a tube lined up... flashlight projection
grab my handy dandy mag light, zip tie, and presto, I had a light projection tool.
91319132

dimmed the lights and with the mag light on, gave a nice oval projection onto the bottom cowl... grabbed the pen and traced the outline of the "spot-light". next step, remove the cowl and start cutting the hole. first pass and I had an initial hole, just big enough to get the exhaust pipe thru...
9133

Then, time to re-install the exhaust for a test fit, which proved out the hole was in the right location, just needed to be enlarged, but I was able to verify in which direction, and approximately how much I needed to enlarge. Pull it back off and make cut pass number two... the result>
91349135

Was able to get the cowling all the way on and secured. Grabbed the pen and gauge and have marked the cowling for the .5" gap around the circumference and will be making the final cut and fits next time out.



Bryan

Do these show up for you?

[rgoering]

I know this is an old thread, but can you resend or repost those pics? What is there, I can't open. Or email to thegoeringgroup@gmail.com

[rgoering]

Perfect, thanks

[doc]

Me too, or as well, as I HATE that whole "Me Too" thing...

[rgoering]

Sutton Exhaust installation just about complete. Now I need to hear from you PA-20/22 guys who have already done the installation. How did you handle the wt and balance change short Of reweighing? The info supplied by Sutton in the STC only applies to a PA-18 and this multi year, 13 page thread does not address wt & balance. I have also read numerous 337’s for field approvals and they only state that the wt and balance change are recorded in the aircraft records. So what was the weight and arm of the original system and what is the arm of the new?

[Gilbert Pierce]

Weigh the system you took off and measure from the wing LE to center off mass of the original
Do the same for the aSutton. That gives you the weight and moment you took off and the same for the Sutton.

For the original I believe I used the distance from the Wing LE to the front edge of the muffler. On the Sutton I measured to the center of the Sutton muffler.

The original was -18 lbs and -24”. The Sutton was +11 lbs and -35.5”. I deemed it close enough for Government work.

[rgoering]

Thanks for the tip Gilbert. It’s surprising how closely my numbers match yours.:icon_cool:

[dgapilot]

Has anyone tried a Sutton exhaust on an O-235? I talked to Gilbert, and he initially used the original PA-16 exhaust on his O-320 installation, then switched to the Sutton exhaust and still has the original PA-16 cowl. That would indicate that the Sutton exhaust fits inside the cowl and should bolt up to the O-235 ok. Just curious if anyone has tried. I also talked to Brian, and he wasn’t aware of anyone that put one on an O-235, but believes a couple are installed on O-290s in Cubs. I’d like to use a Sutton exhaust on my PA-16 with the O-235. Any feedback would be great!


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[Steve Pierce]

Great choice for all the reason listed in previous posts, win win.

[Rotormech]

Note to all that has contributed to this thread. Thank you! Yesterday I received approval from the Springfield IL FSDO for installation of the Sutton exhaust on my PA-22/20. I could not have done this without the information that has been shared here. I would also like to give many thanks to Brian Sutton for his assistance.

[andya]

If possible could you make your FA 337 available here?

[dgapilot]

It’s not signed in blocks 6 and 7 yet as the airplane is a long way from flying. This is for installation on an O-235 in a Clipper. Block 3 is signed, so it is approved data for my airplane. Of note, the O-235 is 3/8” narrower than the O-320. I need to make some minor adjustments to the face of the down tube flanges to point the outboard a little to relieve stress on the muffler.


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[Rotormech]

If possible could you make your FA 337 available here?

I sent Steve P the approval paperwork with hopes he will put it in the appropriate place on the forum to be accessible for others.

[Rotormech]

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Finally got around to cutting the hole for the exhaust. I was able to find a couple pieces tubing to mark the cowling. Still need to mark and cut for the clearance requirements. I’ve been dreading this as I was afraid of over cutting the and having to make a patch.

[Gilbert Pierce]

Looks like you did an excellent job of locating the hole.:D
I fully understand the dread of locating and cutting that hole.:o

[Armstrong]

Hi all, I ordered a Sutton system from Brian yesterday, figured I’ll get that on my Canadian PA-20/22 one way or another! Anyone on the forum with a Canadian registered aircraft that might have some paperwork to help? I’m pretty sure I can use a DAR up here but it could be very pricey.

Also, preferences on the lightweight starter to go with?

Thanks,

John

[Steve Pierce]

Are you keeping the front mounted oil cooler? If no the SkyTec NL.

[Armstrong]

Are you keeping the front mounted oil cooler? If no the SkyTec NL.
I’d like to keep the front cooler as it’s a new aluminum one with flex lines.

[Jspey]

I'm curious what technique is used for locating that hole. I'm terrible at the TLAR method.

[Armstrong]

I'm curious what technique is used for locating that hole. I'm terrible at the TLAR method.
If memory serves, Brian recommends a cardboard template with a large hole around the stack. You then build inward with cardboard and tape until you have it. He suggest you start with a tight hole that once confirmed you fine tune it and get the clearance out to 1/2 inch so you have no risk of your system bumping up against your cowling.

The challenge I foresee will be dealing with the fact that the nose bowl will have to be held in the correct position somehow. I saw that earlier post with the floor jack and using projection, looks pretty good to me!

[Armstrong]

If memory serves, Brian recommends a cardboard template with a large hole around the stack. You then build inward with cardboard and tape until you have it. He suggest you start with a tight hole that once confirmed you fine tune it and get the clearance out to 1/2 inch so you have no risk of your system bumping up against your cowling.

The challenge I foresee will be dealing with the fact that the nose bowl will have to be held in the correct position somehow. I saw that earlier post with the floor jack and using projection, looks pretty good to me!

That post is #97

[Steve Pierce]

Here is a thread with pictures on the NL starter. https://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/showthread.php?10789-Sky-Tec-on-a-PA-22/page2

[ysifly2]

I'm curious what technique is used for locating that hole. I'm terrible at the TLAR method.

One method in this thread at post #96.
I’m sure there are others.

Bryan


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[moto657]

Stuck my new borescope up the tailpipe tonight and found the baffle is blown apart and part of it hanging in the muffler outlet. :o

20698 20699

I'm leaning toward a Sutton Exhaust. I've read some conflicting info on what parts are compatible.

Is it possible to keep the old school stock front mounted oil cooler? I have a Hartzell lightweight starter and Interav Alternator.

[Steve Pierce]

Just need a light weight starter. The old original starter will hit the muffler can.

[moto657]

That's great news. I'm going to call them today and see what the lead time is.

[dgapilot]

You also need a Field Approval as the existing STC does not list the PA-22.


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[moto657]

You also need a Field Approval as the existing STC does not list the PA-22.



Yeah, I’m aware of that hurdle.

[Armstrong]

Mine came in 6 weeks including shipping up to Alberta. Brian’s a great guy, very helpful. Nice work by AWI.

[Armstrong]

20701
I originally ordered the B+C starter but lead time was several months. Got lucky and had the Sky Tec here in a week from AC Spruce. Front cooler OK, just have to mod the one bracket as shown in photo. Scat for heat is still up in the air on mine. I’m installing a Y as well for rear heat.

Does anyone have some good images for routing and securing the scat tubes? My 1960 PA-22/20 is all opposite to Super Cub.

[Jim Hann]

I can take some pictures of mine tomorrow. You are correct, they have to wrap around to the correct side. Also used a Y fitting to split for the front and rear seat heat (mine is a 57).

[Armstrong]

thanks Jim, much appreciated

[moto657]

I can take some pictures of mine tomorrow. You are correct, they have to wrap around to the correct side. Also used a Y fitting to split for the front and rear seat heat (mine is a 57).

That would be great to see. I’ll be running the front mount cooler as well.

Hope my new exhaust shows up soon!

[Jim Hann]

Ugh, I got sidetracked when my HS senior showed up at the hangar (today was the last day except graduation rehearsal). I uncowled it today and will grab pictures tomorrow afternoon.

Jim

[Jim Hann]

Better late than never I hope. Definitely not the only way to skin this cat.
20751207522075320754

[moto657]

Better late than never I hope. Definitely not the only way to skin this cat.
20751207522075320754

Thanks for taking the time to post these pics. Very helpful.

Did you buy the Y splitter for the front /rear or make it? I’ll definitely need one.

So you are getting your inlet air to pressurize the heat system from the nose bowl inlet? Is that box something that needs to be fabbed? Currently my inlet air comes from holes in the back of the engine baffling.

Lots of Scat hoses running all over the place looks inevitable.

[akflyer]

I got the Y from aircraft spruce, they are cheap. I put a 2" flanged connection in the oil cooler block off plate that was in the nose after I moved to a rear oil cooler.

I am thinking of putting a naca scoop on the cowling for the inlet air as the air coming out of the heater in the cabin is stupid hot even at -20 outside so I think I could handle pushing a lot more volume of air through the heat muff to blast the volume in to the cabin and still have nice hot air.

[Steve Pierce]

Did you buy the Y splitter for the front /rear or make it? I’ll definitely need one.


https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/2diaytube.php

They sell a 2" elbow as well that I use on the carb heat. I made my own and had the local muffler shop swell the end.
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/2dia90tube.php

[Armstrong]

Thanks Jim! I appreciate the photos! Steve do you employ that elbow at the carb heat box?

[Steve Pierce]

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[Armstrong]

Thanks Steve!

[moto657]

Can any of you Sutton exhaust guys verify if it will fit with a B&C starter?

I have a Rubbert exhaust, which fits very similar to Sutton. They recommended a 122-12XLT starter. I want to to change to a B&C alternator and mount with front oil cooler, and not sure if that will work with the 12XLT starter.

I also like that the B&C starter doesn’t have the nose that sticks out of the nose bowl.

[Steve Pierce]

Yes, it will fit. The long, original starters hit the muffler can.

[moto657]

Thanks for the info Steve! That’s great news.

I dug up the dimensions of the XLT and the B&C starters. The B&C is 1.7in longer, so I was concerned it may interfere.

[doc]

FYI, the SkyTec/Hartzell HT starter will also work & also has no nose sticking out...

[Armstrong]

The Hartzell is just a log entry too.

[moto657]

See the reply from Logan Rubbert below. Their exhaust must fit slightly different than the Sutton.

“the B&C starter will rub on our shroud but shroud can be dimpled in to accommodate(would rather avoid it). We prefer the Skytec XLT and NL starters.”

So next I’ll ask B&C if either of the Skytec will work with their Alt and mount for front oil cooler.

[Steve Pierce]

Rubbert's exhaust is pulled up closer to the bottom of the engine a bit more I believe because of some of the lower cowl rail interference of the Sutton on the O-360 powered Super Cubs.

[ysifly2]

I have the B&C starter (and alternator) with my Sutton Exhaust. - O320.
It is close, but does not hit.

Bryan


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