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View Full Version : Front Landing gear fitting HELP



pistoncan
04-07-2008, 07:10 PM
Gilbert! (or anyone else that wants to jump in here) I am looking at print 21242 and I need to know the thickness of part 21231. The Wag plans show a double .090 but I just discoverd that the front landing gear fittings I made per the wagabond plans won't match the PA 22 rear fitting. The Vag/wag fittings are out and down at a 45 degree angle 3/4 inch. The PA 22 is vertical, directily under the bottom longeron. I am guessing .125? since it doesn;t appear to be doubled. Any Ideas?
Thanks in advance. Gary

pistoncan
04-08-2008, 09:39 AM
I printed out piper print LPC-1031 full size (No fit to page) and took measurements of the print and it looks like .125 steel. The other measurements come out about right. I am hopeing someone can confirm this, but if not, I will order .125 Thanks for listening to me ramble. Gary

JohnW
04-08-2008, 11:27 AM
No, I have eight airframes that I just walked around (one Vagabond, one Clipper and the rest are PA-22 airframes) and each and every one mics at .102" to .106". Taking into account the various amounts of primer and/or paint on all of them, Piper used .100". Boy, they're easier to mic on the ones that don't have the gear sandwiched in 'em! I had to fabricate one Vagabond fwd fitting a couple summers ago and after beadblasting the twisted up mess that came off'n there it mic'd at .101". I'm surprised to hear that the "Wagabond kit" has .090"!!! The new piece of 4130 that I used to make the piece was sold as ".100 inch thick stock" and I clearly recall that it mic'd at .102". Since you are using PA-22 rear ftgs, I would say call just call Univair and buy the PA-22 kit conversion fittings (only). I have purchased them in the past as "singles", but the Vagabond one is definately different and wasn't available from Univair, so I had to fabricate it myself. For ME, buying it was "cheaper" than building it (and despite waiting for it to arrive, was "faster" as well as "easier"). They also have (DID have???) a PA-20 fitting, and the angle of the dangle is slightly different than on the conversion. Call 'em, and they can work with you (maybe you just ought to ask about buying both the PA-20 and PA-22 fittings and returning whichever set you don't choose to use). I KNOW that when I've done the taildragger conversions, a WHOLE BUNCH of tube-flattening on the carry-through is required to get the toe-in in order, as compared side by side to the original Pacer airframes (been there, done that comparison!).

pistoncan
04-08-2008, 12:32 PM
No, I have eight airframes that I just walked around (one Vagabond, one Clipper and the rest are PA-22 airframes) and each and every one mics at .102" to .106". Taking into account the various amounts of primer and/or paint on all of them, Piper used .100". Boy, they're easier to mic on the ones that don't have the gear sandwiched in 'em! I had to fabricate one Vagabond fwd fitting a couple summers ago and after beadblasting the twisted up mess that came off'n there it mic'd at .101". I'm surprised to hear that the "Wagabond kit" has .090"!!! The new piece of 4130 that I used to make the piece was sold as ".100 inch thick stock" and I clearly recall that it mic'd at .102". Since you are using PA-22 rear ftgs, I would say call just call Univair and buy the PA-22 kit conversion fittings (only). I have purchased them in the past as "singles", but the Vagabond one is definately different and wasn't available from Univair, so I had to fabricate it myself. For ME, buying it was "cheaper" than building it (and despite waiting for it to arrive, was "faster" as well as "easier"). They also have (DID have???) a PA-20 fitting, and the angle of the dangle is slightly different than on the conversion. Call 'em, and they can work with you (maybe you just ought to ask about buying both the PA-20 and PA-22 fittings and returning whichever set you don't choose to use). I KNOW that when I've done the taildragger conversions, a WHOLE BUNCH of tube-flattening on the carry-through is required to get the toe-in in order, as compared side by side to the original Pacer airframes (been there, done that comparison!).
John, Thank you, you are a lifesaver. I have attached a photo of the wagabond front fitting print. You can see how the .090 U bracket is DOUBLED with another flat bracket on each side, and edge welded, then the bushing is located in the center. Is this simular to the vagabond fitting you had to make?
As nice as buying from univair sounds, I am retired on a very small pention so buying much of anything other than stock material is out of the question.
I am replacing the 1 1/8 cross piece at staion 2 and making my own gear legs so as long as i get the centerline of the fitting in line with the centerline of the bottom longeroun, I should be ok. As you can see from the print, on the wagabond, the fitting centerline is 3/4 inch out and down from the longeron. (as is the rear fitting, so they are still parallel.)

JohnW
04-08-2008, 03:32 PM
Everybody ought to LOVE this![attachment=0:1yidd5gx]Fitting removed.JPG[/attachment:1yidd5gx]

Sorry, it's a "scroller"...notice that I "airbrushed" the [im]pertinent details out to protect the innocent! Yes, you can see the fitting is the same design, but I say again...the original was .100" for the fitting AND the side plates. The pics of the fitting itself were pretty much boring compared to what I found underneath where it came from. It (the ftg) had been RIPPED off at the rust spot when the MLG folded up underneath, but did not completely depart the tube. Note the deep "dent" where the gearleg wasted the carrythrough tube as the gear folded under. That repair was kinda fun, except for the "last guy" had literally FILLED THE TUBES with linseed oil!!! What a nightmare!!! Listen...if you ever find yourself needing to make a repair on a fuselage, think long and hard about "oiling the tubes". That stuff is just like the Eveready Bunny, get my meaning?

rmalone
04-08-2008, 03:48 PM
I second that. I never thought the Lindseed oil would stop coming out when I opened up the tubing for repair. Way overkill. :)

pistoncan
04-08-2008, 05:20 PM
Yes, you can see the fitting is the same design, but I say again...the original was .100" for the fitting AND the side plates. The pics of the fitting itself were pretty much boring compared to what I found underneath where it came from. It (the ftg) had been RIPPED off at the rust spot when the MLG folded up underneath, but did not completely depart the tube. Note the deep "dent" where the gearleg wasted the carrythrough tube as the gear folded under.
John, Thanks again, Yes I can see how it is the same design as the wagabond and I understand that the fitting plates were .100 on the vagabond. I attached a photo of the print for the LPC-1031 front fitting. (The PA 20 is simular) As you mentioned the angle is sligtly different, (but the centerline is the same) between the PA 20 and the PA 22/20 front MLG mount. As you will note, it doesn;t have the doublers. My question is, what thickness is the U bracket that doesn;t use the doublers? The print shows the 2 inch disk reenforcement is .065. but nothing for the U bracket. From measuring the full size print out, it appears to be close to .125. Any ideas? Gary

JohnW
04-08-2008, 05:48 PM
The "undoubled" fittings from Piper are [as referenced, allowing for primer/paint thckness] .100", as is the Vagabond main fitting and side doublers. The Univair PMA'd fittings for the Pacer as well as the STC/PMA'd PA22/20 mod that I have in my stock are also .100". The tailwheel "saddle fitting" that goes at the aft end of the longerons is coincidentally .100" as well. The Vagabond was (in my opinion) a bit of an Engineering fubar in that the way that the bottom longeron terminates AT THE front MLG fitting is reduced one tube diameter, and the "joint" at that location was accomplished by scarf-cutting the smaller tube and literally "sticking it inside" the larger diameter longeron and edge welding it together. Seems quite prudent to have tied the load directly back to the fwd carrythrough with the side plates. The "later ShortWing designs" turned the one-piece bottom longeron around that station and angled it forward to the firewall (fuselage frame Sta. 0) in one piece. Apparently the Vagabonds were famous (infamous???) for tearing off gear legs (whatever...never tore one of MINE off and I have certainly "used it"! Probably been flown more on skiis than Baldini tires) and have a bit of a reputation for that (still, UNfounded, IMO). Virtually ALL the early (earlier???) Pipers had triangular braces welded to the MLG fittings. A practice that appears to have been discontinued by the Factory in the later model SuperCubs (correct me if I am in error there). The -20s and -22s are WYSISYG. No side doublers, no triangular bracing. Interestingly, the Univair STC (LightPlane Components) conventional gear mod requires installing a splayed finger doubler at the front gear installation area. SOMEBODY musta though there still wasn't "enough happenin'" there.

Oh, for anyone that can't STAND my scrollin' picture, just right-click the pic and then left-click on "View Image". When done seeing the whole thing, use your "Back Button" to return to the thread.

pistoncan
04-08-2008, 06:43 PM
John, Well Im sorta slow on the uptake but I think I have it now, Its either .100, .100 or .100 :D Thats good to know and I can;t thank you enough. In my ignorance, I am one of those people that wants to make it just a little bit stronger (and heavier) I figured without the doublers it would have to be thicker. If nothing else, I am going to know what makes the landing gear tick.