Lycoming 0-320 question?problem

[dkooney]

I Have a great running Lycoming 0-320 that has great compression (lowest cylinder 78/80) that I cannot keep oil in. Have talked to several PA-22 owners who have experienced a similar problem and wondering if anyone has come up with a solution to blowing out so much oil. Any info on oil seperator problems, tips or upgrades that have helped keep more oil in the resevoir then on the belly of my airplane would be greatly appreciated.

[Bultaco Jim]

I guess the first question on everyones mind will be; is it coming out of the breather, or exhaust? I'm assuming it's not just a leak.

[dkooney]

The oil loss is coming by way of blow by not a leak or out of the exhaust. I have heard of putting on a Airwolf seperator and having great results, but wondering if there is a better solution. :?:

[Bultaco Jim]

Are you sure of the amount of oil that has been put in it. Does it continue to push oil out of the breather, after the oil level drops?
I'm just getting the preliminary questions out of the way.

[dkooney]

Sorry should have included that when the level drops to 4 quarts that is where normal oil consumption is seen, but anything above that seems to blow out weather you fly 1 hour or three

[Bultaco Jim]

When I bought the Colt, I asked the former owner about oil consumption. He said that it always blew out a half quart, then settled down. When I got the plane home after a 20 hr ferry flight, I naturally changed the oil. Drained it out warm, and put back in the 6 qts that the O-235 should take. The dipstick read 5 1/2 quarts! Of course! He must have been dispensing oil from a larger drum instead of 1 quart cans, and was going by the dipstick only. I've heard of dipsticks reading farther off than that, so are you sure it has just the 8 qts that the O-320 takes?

[Steve Pierce]

I have chased this problem on a couple of O-290-D2s. I believe the front mounted crankcase vent is part of the problem. There are likely two things that I can think of that are going on. One is you could have excessive blow by which is creating high crankcase pressures and causing the oil to blow out. You can have good compressions and still have excessive combustion blow by the rings. There is a procedure for checking the blow by using an old airspeed indicator as an indicator hooked to the crankcase. I have a very good article on this I will find and post. Another cause could be low pressure at the crankcase vent outlet. After doing engine work where I had to move the vent I didn't get it back in the same position and the oil blow by was noticed. Moved the crankcase vent end a few inches and the problem went away. The M20 air/oil separator works well and is a lot smaller than the Airwolf but I think I would investigate the cause a little more before resorting to a separator.

[Jim]

Hi,

When I mentioned losing oil to the belly of my old O-290-D2, my then mechanic mentioned the end of the cam on that engine lined up with the front breather vent fitting, so when the cam spun oil off the end it was flung right into the vent fitting.

He then said a few people have ground an 1/8 inch off the cam length and solved the problem. NO, I'm not recommending butchering the cam as there are those that have routed their vent hose over the top of the engine and also noticed a drop in belly oil.

Also, if the dipstick gasket is shot you'll let oil suck out of the engine. I once forgot to put the dipstick back in after a check and the engine pumped out damn near all its oil in an hour flight.

There are also those that say your vent should not terminate in a region of low pressure.

Your 320 shouldn't share the 290s vent anomalies, you should probably be looking for a problem elsewhere.

[DougG]

HI,
I agree with the theory of the cam throwing oil into the crankcase vent on the 290's, the problem can be made worse if a new cam is installed as the journal of the newer cams is slightly longer still. I have seen the fitting modified with sort of baffle so the oil didn't have a direct path out of the engine but this was not an approved mod. I also had some experience with the vent tube location and shape. I had changed the line and the way it was clamped to the fire wall and ended up with the vent line in a bit of a "trail" position. A short flight vented a couple of quarts of oil on the belly. After changing to to a more vertical, almost leaning toward scooping a little air, the oil blown over board was back to what I would consider normal for a 290.
Doug.

[Bultaco Jim]

Let's not forget that he said that oil consumption returns to normal when down to 4 qts.

[Bultaco Jim]

So, D.Kooney..... how's the oil problem coming along?

[mongoose09]

I'd like to revive this topic. I have only had my Tri-Pacer for about a month but the oil level seems to stabilize at 5 1/2 quarts (0320). Looks like there is some oil collecting around the quick drain, has anybody had that issue? I just serviced it to 7 quarts, will fly tomorrow and report back to the group.

Thanks,

Kevin

[Steve Pierce]

Some engines like to throw the first quart or so out. If the oil temperature is ok I would run it and see if you lose anymore. A little oil goes a long way.

[andya]

While I am not the kind to test it, Lycoming claims min oil is 2 qts for flight.

[Stephen]

While I am not the kind to test it, Lycoming claims min oil is 2 qts for flight.
I've tested it, unwillingly. Oil pressure was fine on my downwind (luckly, I had actually checked it), I landed, then saw my oil all over the left gear leg and belly. I put five quarts in to bring it up to my usual 7 quarts. Now, two years and oil coolers later, all seems fine. I had just flown across 15 minutes of open water spewing oil.

[Steve Pierce]

I read about the Bonanza crash on Lopez recently. Test flight, new engine, friend and kids in the plane over open water. Literally took the plane out of the shop and out over the water with kids. :shock:

Back to the oil issue, I have read what Andy posted in Lycomings operators manual for the O-320. It will hold pressure but I bet the oil temp. will be high. Was yours Stephen? Ask Jason about bringing a T'cart back from OSH one year. I had to turn around, unload all our camping gear and load him into the Pacer because his oil was all down the side of his airplane. Oil filter adapter gasket went south. :shock:

[Bultaco Jim]

Just to clarify; Lyc says minimum 2 quarts to run the engine. But you would NEVER go flying with this amount. It's just that you don't need to freak out and rebuild the engine if you finish a trip (burning or leaking quite a bit),and have only 2 quarts left. In other words, you haven't ruined the engine just by going to 2 quarts. But, of course, you need to research the high consumption.

[Stephen]

I read about the Bonanza crash on Lopez recently. Test flight, new engine, friend and kids in the plane over open water. Literally took the plane out of the shop and out over the water with kids.


The Bonanza almost landed in my pasture, less than a 100 yards from my house. The guy took off from Everett, with about 20 minutes brake-in time, like you read, with girlfriend and two kids for Friday Harbor (over very cold water), he noticed that he was loosing pitch control, which was a sign of decreasing oil pressure which he did not know. The engine seized and he could not make Lopez airport, so he chose a road, he had to pull up at the last second to avoid a car (one of my students driving, not knowing she was driving on a runway). The Bonaza landed fine, but got a wing tip caught in a fence and stopped in about 500 feet. By the time I arrived they were out and the kids were litererly doing cartwheels, saying "my dad's a hero". I can only wonder what the shop told the pilot before he took the plane. They had already replaced the engine twice, the first time starting it with the tow bar still attached.

I think he went below the minimun 2 quart?????

[crazyivan]

Here's a data point for you.

When I did a cross country in the 22/20-150 I filled it up to a little over 6 quarts. I lost 2 quarts all over the belly and gear fairing within 6 hours of flying. Every time I added a quart, it was blown overboard within 3 or 4 hours. It started settling down at about 4.2 quarts when it tapered off with very little oil on the belly. Now it's holding steady at about 4 quarts and losing about .1 quart per hour.

My guess is that as long as you are dumping the oil (not burning it in combustion) and the temps remain within limits then you're OK.

[av8ing]

I too would like to revive this topic. The O-320 in my PA22/20 is similar. It doesn't like to keep anymore than 5.5 quarts and is happier with 5.0. I Know 2 is the minimum but I have always preferred to have at least 6 since the max is 8. But if I fill it to 6 I loose 1/2 a quart in the first hour. I'm not sure I even have cause for worry though. This is my first summer with the Pacer so I was anxious to see what the engine temp did when the weather started getting hot. With 5.5 quarts its stays around 190 degrees. That's with 90-95 degree OAT. That seems acceptable to me. Do you all agree?

[Steve Pierce]

Sounds perfect to me. I like 190-210 to boil off the water etc.

[Bultaco Jim]

Sure seems like a nice temp, considering the OAT. Are you sure the dipstick reads correctly? In other words, did you change the oil yourself?

[Stephen]

I put a Stewart Warner oil cooler on after problems with others. Now my oil temp does not get above 170. In the winter I completely wrap the oil cooler to get that temp. The SW cooler is a little larger and seems to be higher quality constrution.

[Hillbilly]

I read about the Bonanza crash on Lopez recently. Test flight, new engine, friend and kids in the plane over open water. Literally took the plane out of the shop and out over the water with kids.


The Bonanza almost landed in my pasture, less than a 100 yards from my house. The guy took off from Everett, with about 20 minutes brake-in time, like you read, with girlfriend and two kids for Friday Harbor (over very cold water), he noticed that he was loosing pitch control, which was a sign of decreasing oil pressure which he did not know. The engine seized and he could not make Lopez airport, so he chose a road, he had to pull up at the last second to avoid a car (one of my students driving, not knowing she was driving on a runway). The Bonaza landed fine, but got a wing tip caught in a fence and stopped in about 500 feet. By the time I arrived they were out and the kids were litererly doing cartwheels, saying "my dad's a hero". I can only wonder what the shop told the pilot before he took the plane. They had already replaced the engine twice, the first time starting it with the tow bar still attached.

I think he went below the minimun 2 quart?????


Reckon what that sounded like?

[av8ing]

Yes Jim, I change the oil myself and it reads exactly what I put in it.

[pmanton]

Some engines like to throw the first quart or two out.

WHY ???? I don't believe I've ever seen an explanation of just why this happens.

Thanks

Paul
N1431A
KSDM
2AZ1

[SrG]

I never put in more than 6 quarts either, anything more than that it'll just puke it out on a 30 minute flight.
I'll also usually let it run down to about 4.5 quarts before I add any top off oil. that only ends up being one quart of top off per oil change(40-50 hours)

[Throttle Pusher]

Wow
4 to 4.5 quarts?
At a flight school that I used to rent a 172 (with 320) from had a problem throwing oil out as well
We found out with about 4 quarts of oil onboard, in climb out the oil pressure would oscillate.
Now my Tripacer with the 0-290-D2 would throw out oil down to 6 quarts before leveling off.but I always topped it off to 7 qarts.
The 320 I'm installing on my airplane now? dont know yet, but I'm planning on putting a M-20 on it.
If your looseing down to 4 to 4.5 quarts I would not hesitate to put on a oil seperator. Saftey First.

P.S No I was not the fool going out to fly with only 4 quarts on board

[Steve Pierce]

I can't remember but Lycoming's minimum oil is pretty low (maybe 3 qts.) but it would run real hot with that little bit of oil here in Texas on a summer day.

[andya]

I can't remember but Lycoming's minimum oil is pretty low (maybe 3 qts.) but it would run real hot with that little bit of oil here in Texas on a summer day.

the book says minimum of 2qt, but I wouldn't be the one to try it out.

[Gregor6712]

Dear all,

I would like to ask the same question again. I have an O 320 E2F installed in a Wassmer 51A with the same problem. It has a perfect compression, but is spraying almost a quart of the oil out of itself when full. As lower the oil level, as less it is spraying. An oil separator was a help for a few hours only. After around 10 hours it is creating a film over the mesh, making the problem becoming the same again.

Did anyone has found a solution?

19502

[Pacer42Z]

I never fill my O-320 to the top. It will do the same as yours. I fill 6 qts max. It will blow out about 1/2 qts in the first 5 hours and then will take a good 15 to 20 hours to blow out/burn another 1/2 qts.

Juergen
Pacer N3342Z

[Gregor6712]

Thank You, but this is not really a help. Sometimes I do fly five hours without landing. Doing it, will remove something like 3 quarts of oil out of the engine. I prefer to lose oil as to lose the engine.

[Pacer42Z]

I think, if your engine uses 3 qts in just 5 hours, the engine needs to be fixed. How many hours are on the engine and how is the compression?

Juergen
Pacer N3342Z

[Gregor6712]

Dear Sir,

I wrote in the first post, the compression is perfect. The worst cylinder is 78/80. When I bought th eplane, it had ~900hrs and I replaced a cylinder/piston because it was close to the border of the tolerance. I did also replaced all the outer parts like:
- carburetor
- magnetos
- spark plugs
- cables
- etc.

The engine is in perfect condition, the spark plugs are dry and brown, could not be better. The engine is not even leaking a drop in years.

Now it has something like 1350hrs.

I should have said I´am a LBA (coresponding to Your FAA) certified engine mechanic, and have by the way a phd in mechanical engineering.

[akflyer]

Any 0320 I have ever run or seen would puke out the oil if it had more than 5.5 qts in it. Also check the breather line, is it below the edge of the cowling? If so, it will create a vacuum and suck the oil right out. I cut my tube off about 2" higher than it was and oil consumption (puking) all but stopped.

[Steve Pierce]

Have had the breather line suck oil out, just enough to make a mess. I would do a wobble test on the exhaust valves. Sounds like you have loose guides maybe? Look in the rocker covers for black blow by as well.

[Gregor6712]

This is what I believe is the case (vacuum in the line). And yes, the breather line is below the cowling.

My next step is, to get some pressure in the breather line. Do not worry, we talk something like 1 psi. It is a "piece of cake" to change it and easy to check the influence.


19503

[dgapilot]

Almost all Lycomings like to be at least one quart low. Fill it any more and it pukes out. From a practical standpoint, if the oil is going away, it is either leaking or it is getting sucked out the breather. Chase your leaks first. The common ones are crank seal, the O ring on the filler tube, rocker covers, and cylinder drains. Don't forget to look the oil cooler over, in recent years I've found 3 coolers that were leaking. If you have wet cylinder bases, or the case parting surface is leaking, there isn't much you can do short of splitting the case as that usually indicates the seals on the through bolts have failed at the parting surface. Leaks will be exacerbated by high case pressure. Now that you have your leaks under control, breathers are always fun to try and track down why the oil is coming out. It is all about pressure differential. There is a Lycoming SI or SB that tells how to check for high case pressure. Get a cork that fits in your oil filler, and drill a hole in it for a piece of tubing. Plumb that tubing into the pitot side of an airspeed indicator, now run the engine. If the airspeed indicator shows greater than a certain airspeed (I don't recall the numbers now) you have two primary causes. Rings leaking or valve guides leaking. To confirm if it is valve guides, pull the rocker covers. If the guides are leaking, the cavity where your valves are will be filled with lead bromide (that brown powdery stuff on your exhaust stack) mixed with the oil. It will looks like a tan colored sludge all over everything. I've seen a lot of cylinders that had great compression, but the guides were shot, and the exhaust was spilling into the head, then through the drain lines and into the case. High case pressure will increase flow out the breather, and that increased flow will drag oil with it. The only way to fix this problem is to repair the offending cylinder. Of course if the rings are leaking, that would show on a compression check. If your case pressure is OK, placement of the breather can also have a profound effect on oil being drawn out. I've seen where moving the breather outlet up or down by as little as 1/2" can dramatically change how much oil comes out. The key is you don't want the breather in a low pressure area under the aircraft. Hope this helps!

[Gilbert Pierce]

I had the same problem. Worn exhaust guides pressurized the crankcase and dumped exhaust soot into the oil. Exhaust springs, rocker arms and inside of rocker covers on the exhaust side were black. (Ethanol free auto fuel black-gray/brown if 100LL) Pull your rocker overs and have a look.
Eventually it stuck the oil control rings. Plugs were dry and compression in the mid to high 70’s over 80.
One quart of oil per hour. Superior Millennium cylinders had 1400 hours since new.

[Gregor6712]

It is all about pressure differential. There is a Lycoming SI or SB that tells how to check for high case pressure. Get a cork that fits in your oil filler, and drill a hole in it for a piece of tubing. Plumb that tubing into the pitot side of an airspeed indicator, now run the engine. If the airspeed indicator shows greater than a certain airspeed (I don't recall the numbers now) you have two primary causes. Rings leaking or valve guides leaking.

Thank You Sir!

Leaks are simply not existing. No one drop in five years. It would be a disaster if I could not get all my machines tight.

I was already thinking about the pressure differential and I described how I planned to solve it.

Before Your post I was expecting the pressure difference beeing produced by air flow during flight, which would be not so easy to be measured.
But I like Your idea very much to measure it on ground with the engine running! This is a piece of cake and can be done in a few minutes. I prepared an old instrument to attach it on the breathing line.

The plan is:
1. Measure pressure difference on ground
2. If there is a difference pressure, I will remove the rocker covers and check.
3. If there is no pressure, I will install what I described above, to get pressure from the outside into the breathing line, making sure no vacuum will remove the oil of the housing.

19504

[Steve Pierce]

45-55 mph with a max of 100 mph on a Lycoming measured on an airspeed indicator according to Sac Sky Ranch which is 1-2" of water on a manometer. Use the oil filler neck to take the reading.

[Gregor6712]

Hmmm. I would use the breather pipe and leave the oil filler neck closed. Otherwise I will not measure anything.

[Steve Pierce]

Hmmm. I would use the breather pipe and leave the oil filler neck closed. Otherwise I will not measure anything.
You will blow out the nose seal.

[bluejeepdad]

As the engine wears and blow-by increases the crankcase pressure increases because the breather is a fixed restriction (higher flow rate through the breather means higher pressure drop required for the gasses to flow out). The idea is to measure this pressure. To do that the breather would be open just as it is in normal operation and the pressure reading taken anywhere in the crankcase. The oil fill tube is just a convenient place to connect the pressure sensor (or airspeed indicator) to read the crankcase pressure.

If the oil fill is closed off, and a plug put in the breather to measure pressure, then the blow-by gasses will have nowhere to go and the crankcase pressure will go really high. But that same thing would happen with the blow-by in a healthy engine too. So this test wouldn't tell us much.

Tim

[dgapilot]

Hmmm. I would use the breather pipe and leave the oil filler neck closed. Otherwise I will not measure anything.

You want to read the case pressure in the normal running environment. You need the case to breath, or as Steve said, you will blow the crank seal,and likely blow your airspeed indicator. You already have a known leak, the breather. What you are looking for is excessive pressure “leaking” Int the engine. There are known sources, through the rings, through the guides, and under normal conditions and clearances, as Steve indicated somewhere around 45-55 mph on an airspeed indicator. As the clearances increase, the pressure in the case increases, but your calibrated oriface ( the breather) remains the same, so it limits the flow and case pressure increases, kind of like your compression tester.


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[Steve Pierce]

Here is my modified test cap.
19506
19507

[Steve Pierce]

Here is my modified test cap.
19506
19507

[dgapilot]

I just use a rubber stopper with a hole drilled in it for the tubing.

[Gregor6712]

Hi guys,

I hear what You say. But this will not really help. As long, as I do not have the breather pipe end out of any air flow, I will not know where the pressure comes from (inside of engine, or vacuum because of air flow). I will report what I did.

But definitely THANK YOU all guys!

Steve, I love Your test cap, but do not have one.

[Gregor6712]

Hello guys,

I owe You an explanation about the progress.

Yesterday checked once again, ande there is no any leakages of the engine.

I installed a pressure measuring:

- an old (functioning) spedometer connected to the engine housing (yes, connected in the correct way)
- the breather left in the original configuration (19mm (0,8") pipe, about 1,5m (5ft) lenght to the outside of the fuselage)
- oil measuring cap closed

When idle, the spedometer shows ~25knots coresponding pressure. As higher the rpm, as less the pressure! Finaly showing minus 50 knots (vacuum!) at 2200rpm

Some vacuum seems to suck my engine empty, probably the airflow at the fuselage!

I have now installed a T - piece in the breather hose.
- one end goes full open to the engine
- one end fully open goes to the area above the engine, getting the pressure of airflow during flight
- one end with smaller diameter of 10mm (~0,4") goes to the outside

First calculations show, there must be a positive pressure in the engine body.

A first 20 minutes test flight showed no obvious problems.

I will report after a longer flight...

Thank You all guys..

[Gregor6712]

Hello guys, I owe You an explanation about the progress.

Thank You guys for the support. The fuel consumption is now simply zero. Not measurable.

[Steve Pierce]

Thank You guys for the support. The fuel consumption is now simply zero. Not measurable.
Oil consumption I presume? That is great news.

[Gregor6712]

Oil consumption I presume? That is great news.
Of course!!

😂

monday morning issue. The coffee was not installed yet.

[Steve Pierce]

I know that feeling well. ;)

[Pacerfgoe]

Out of curiosity did your original vent line below the fuselage have a taper cut to terminate it. I would think that if the trailing edge of the tube was higher than the leading edge of the tube, a vacuum would be produced.

Any thoughts or comments?

[Gilbert Pierce]

There is a fine line in the location of vent tube between oil on the belly and no oil on the belly on my airplane.

[mmoyle]

So.....! How many don’t have any oil loss issues? As in: zero oil consumption with 8 quarts?


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[Subsonic]

So.....! How many don’t have any oil loss issues? As in: zero oil consumption with 8 quarts?

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From what I've heard over the years, that answer is zero. Mine stabilizes at about 6 quarts. I trimmed my crankcase hose to about 1/2" short of the bottom of the firewall and it is cut flat.

[Subsonic]

Hello guys,

I owe You an explanation about the progress.

Yesterday checked once again, ande there is no any leakages of the engine.

I installed a pressure measuring:

- an old (functioning) spedometer connected to the engine housing (yes, connected in the correct way)
- the breather left in the original configuration (19mm (0,8") pipe, about 1,5m (5ft) lenght to the outside of the fuselage)
- oil measuring cap closed

When idle, the spedometer shows ~25knots coresponding pressure. As higher the rpm, as less the pressure! Finaly showing minus 50 knots (vacuum!) at 2200rpm

Some vacuum seems to suck my engine empty, probably the airflow at the fuselage!

I have now installed a T - piece in the breather hose.
- one end goes full open to the engine
- one end fully open goes to the area above the engine, getting the pressure of airflow during flight
- one end with smaller diameter of 10mm (~0,4") goes to the outside

First calculations show, there must be a positive pressure in the engine body.

A first 20 minutes test flight showed no obvious problems.

I will report after a longer flight...

Thank You all guys..

Gregor, would it be possible for you to post a few pictures of your "T" breather hose? And, how did you attach the airspeed indicator to your engine?
Thanks,
-Subsonic

[Gregor6712]

Gregor, would it be possible for you to post a few pictures of your "T" breather hose? And, how did you attach the airspeed indicator to your engine?
Thanks,
-Subsonic
Hi,

I made several pictures and even videos of what I did, but after nobody asked for a month I simple deleted. Sorry. But I explain as good as I can and make pictures when again at plane.

1. Measuring of the pressure in the hose.
An old spedometer is used.
I turned some adaptors (see picture),

19887

I cut the hose of the breather line just behind the engine and installed the T- piece, which is fully open in the straight line 19mm (3/4"). I connected all parts with hose.

19888

When the engine was idle, the spedometer showed positive pressure (around 40kts). AS higher the rpm as LOWER the pressure, showing ZERO at around 1400RPM (and something like MINUS 50 kts at 2000rpm).

3.Changing the breather line.

Since the correct part is in the plane the next picture shows the principle only. I used the T-Piece, which normally would be full open in the straight line, and closed one side of it with a turned aluminum part, so I minimized the hole to 10mm (3/8").

19889

19891


19890


The rectangular part of the T - piece is open to the area inside of fuselage, above the cylinders, giving the pressure of the airflow during flight into the T - piece. My calculation show, I shoud have at cruise speed (110kts) a pressure in the engine corresponding to ~50kts.

3. Tests
I filled the engine up to around 7,2 quarts. (I always fill full 1 quart bottles)
A first test flight of around 20 minutes showed, there is definitely pressure in the engine, since I had some leakages around the filler cap, which I had never before. I close the filler cup stronger than I did before, and this problem happened not again. I will maybe add some "fixage" to make sure the filler cup does not open because of vibration.
Meanwhile I flew more than 5 hrs in that configuration and the oil level is still the same. In the configuration before, I would have lost something like 4 quarts in that time.

4. I will make some pictures of the installation, once at the plane again.

19892


GENERAL:
I am a stupid german engineer. I am not a lawyer. All of my ideas have the potential to be stupid or even dangerous. Nobody is forced to use my experience or to follow my recommendations. Some figures I present, are just out of my memory. I am not interested in things behind the point. So if anyone finds some faults in my conversion from metric to ancient dimensions, feel free to keep them. Same with the faults, I make for sure in english language.

[Gregor6712]

Flow of media and its calculations is my business since 1983. I hear what You say, but without tests I will not make any judgement. To flip a coin is more accurate. I think the situation might be even different depending take off weight and corresponding angle of attack.
This would explain why I had no problem during the first two years and now the problem became serious. Earlier I would fly often with my wife, daughter and dog, close to MTOW and now in most cases I am alone. (Daughter married, and we moved, so neither my wife and my dog fly with me any more).

But I will make some pictures to show the situation.

[Pacer42Z]

This is a very interesting subject. I fill 6 qts of oil at an oil change. It moves down to about 5.5 qts in the first 5 hours and the takes about 20 to 30 hours to use (mostly blow out) another 1/2 qt. Then I add 1qt. So between oil changes the Pacer uses (blows out) 1 qt of oil.

Juergen
Pacer N3342Z

[Jim]

Hi Mark,

....."So.....! How many don’t have any oil loss issues? As in: zero oil consumption with 8 quarts?".....

I don't need to add oil to my E2D in ten hours even though I've always run with eight quarts, added a pint in 25. I've lost a lot of oil on a couple of flights over the years that scared me into always keeping it full up with the 8. In the old 290 leaving out the dipstick let the oil suck out the breather tube and cover the belly, actually did that twice. On this engine the short rubber hose from the engine toward the oil pressure gauge broke and it pumped out the oil into my engine compartment. I went down real quick when a scan showed zero pressure on my just rebuilt 320. I really have no idea why I'm lucky in not throwing, blowing, or burning oil away.

[Steve Pierce]

I keep my crankcase between 6-7 qts and use a quart every 8-10 hours. I have new Lycoming cylinders with about 400 hrs.

[mmoyle]

Went through almost a quart on the first flight… front seal leak. Replaced with the seal type that is stretched over the prop flange.. three hours later..still a bit over the 8 quart mark…no oil on the belly.. accidentally did something right?


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[Gregor6712]

Picture of the installation...

[dgapilot]

Picture of the installation...

Can’t say I like all those the wraps on the engine mount, they will wear right through the tubing.


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[Gregor6712]

Can’t say I like all those the wraps on the engine mount, they will wear right through the tubing.
They will DEFINITELY not. I do it for 35 years now, beeing certified by LBA (FAA).

Have a closer look to how this is done. That makes the difference.

[Steve Pierce]

Lady at Kasola (certified repair station that repaired engine mounts) told me they failed more tubes from zip ties without anything under them than anything else. If I have to run a zip tie around a tube I use friction tape around the tube. I also use a zip tie gun or flush cutting dikes to cut the ends off. Too many cut arms from those little razor barbs left from regular dikes.

[J Ryd]

Can’t say I like all those the wraps on the engine mount, they will wear right through the tubing.


Sent from my iPad using TapatalkThat's the first thing that came to my mind before I read this. My A&P said it's a NoNo. Made me change out zip ties for Adel clamps with another appropriately sized Adel clamp to hold wires, sensors, hoses, etc

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[dgapilot]

That's the first thing that came to my mind before I read this. My A&P said it's a NoNo. Made me change out zip ties for Adel clamps with another appropriately sized Adel clamp to hold wires, sensors, hoses, etc when I bought it.

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Nowhere in AC43.13-1a Chapter 11 does it indicate zip ties are OK for wiring. The only airplanes I’ve worked on that used zip ties from the factory was Cirrus. I suppose there may be others, but it definitely is not “standard practice”.


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[Gregor6712]

but it definitely is not “standard practice”.

It is definitely standard practice in Europe in every single plane. But, hell we use metric dimensions too. Those are probably dangerous too.

[59pacer]

It is definitely standard practice in Europe in every single plane. But, hell we use metric dimensions too.

It's common here in Australia, too.
In the 30 years I've been using them, I've yet to see a case of them causing an issue anywhere on any of my aircraft.
I appreciate that if they are loose and allow relative movement then chafing could occur, so I always protect against that. Being too tight could also cause an issue in some circumstances.
The big issue that I've had with them is that if they are not cut off flush, they love to tear holes on my ageing, thin skinned, arms!

[Gregor6712]

Let me show You the basics:

1.Do NOT do it in this way:

19901

You will squeeze the hose or the isolation of Your wiring. The potential to get the hose or isolation destroyed is very high. The plastic hast the tendency to flow away from pressure and this starts very fast.

2. This is how to do it, if You do not require any movement between the structure and Your hose or wiring. One zip (yellow) goes around the hose, creating a perfect circular pressure around the hose. The plastic can´t flow away. A second zip (black) is fixed to the structure of Your plane.

19902

3. This is how to do it, If You need some movement. This would be the case for example if some wirings goes from fuselage to (vibrating) engine. One zip (yellow) surrounds your hose or wiring. One zip (black) is fixed to fuselage. A third zip (blue) is fixing the two zips together. The lenght of the blue zip specifies the amount of possible movement. Normaly the blue zip would be thinner than the other one, making sure, the worst thing to happen, ist the blue zip gets broken.


19903

4. This is the way if You have to fix more than one hose in same place of fuselage. Each hose has it´s own zip (blue and yellow). Both zips are fixed with one zip (black) to the structure.

19904

19905



I am flying since 1986. I have build a certified plane. I have changed some planes very deep in their structure (certified). I have maintained hundreds of planes in decades, never had a problem with this.

[Steve Pierce]

I would say that the use of zip ties is standard practice in the US as well. But, like I stated above the protection of the tubing and common curtesy like the use of safety wire for the guy that works behind you. Those barbs are sharp.

[Jim]

Hi,

I've been using the zip ties but run them through a piece of rubber tubing as a standoff.

19906

This is a quick sample picture in my garage on the John Deere hood.

My IA won't allow this kind of thing on a fuel line though.

[JPerkins]

You guys are arguing over the use of zip ties. I’m over here with the ole’ koro sealhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211026/d124c5daa7d91162904d466200afadeb.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211026/af7480f51242275fb6e433117bd5496f.jpg


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[MrBill]

Thats what I have that and the Adels.

[Steve Pierce]

Koroseal works very well, we are lazy and cheap. ;)

[Gregor6712]

A bought separator using mesh was after a short period of time useless, because the fine mesh was blocked by a kind of "oil - jelly". Meanwhile I have a new "device" installed. A cyclone - separator which I designed, machined and installed myself. The very first two flights of 6hrs showed almost zero oil going to the outside. I am impressed by the performance of this separator, but surprisingly there is still a significant oil "consumption" or "loss".

The compression is fine
the surface of pistons and cylinders are fine (endoscope)
I have installed new spark plugs and the old ones look good
the rocker covers are clean
there is no any leakage I could see.

My next step will be to check again the compression of each cylinder. Three cylinders are 1300hrs. One cylinder is 500hrs. I will clean the whole engine and the whole fuselage perfectly clean to check where the oil might go to.

212452124621247

[Steve Pierce]

What is the oil consumption per hour? I had an O-235-C1 that used a quart every 3 hours. Started using a quart every 2. Still had compression in the 70s over 80 but found the taper of the rings worn out.

[Gregor6712]

Hi,

I have to check what it is now. When I bought the plane with ~800hrs consumption was very high when oil level was above 5,5. Basically it lost 1 quart an hour until it got down to 5,5. Below that level it was far less, maybe 1 quart every 10 hrs.

Which rings do You mean? Those in the cylinders? That would surprise me, the spark plugs look good and dry.

[Steve Pierce]

Piston rings. My plugs looked fine as well.

[smcnutt]

Piston rings. My plugs looked fine as well.

Wouldn't you see evidence of oil going out the exhaust or on the belly?

[Steve Pierce]

Wouldn't you see evidence of oil going out the exhaust or on the belly?
It seemed to burn it.

[N2709P]

Installing the Steve’s brake booster that is mounted on the engine mount (1956 TriPacer), we have had to relocate the voltage regulator and engine breather line. It appears that the breather fitting in the accessory case has a 3/4” hose fitting and the breather line was 5/8” aluminum line. Making a new breather line from 3/4” 5052-O. The new line needs to be re-routed to clear the new master brake cylinder and the exhaust muffler. I cannot find in the Piper drawings an original location for the terminus of the breather line on an O-320 and if the end was finished straight or tapered fore or aft. We would be grateful if anyone could publish a picture of the outlet end and location of the breather tube on an original TriPacer installation.
Thank you!
N2709P

[N2709P]

I found the installation drawing for the O-320 (14474). It shows the breather line terminating well up inside the cowling and not exiting below the firewall. Was there a SL or SB to reroute the line below the firewall? It seems with the AD to keep the oil out of the bootcowl area, having the terminus of the breather line about 6 inches above the bottom of the left lower firewall inside the cowling would not be the best position to select.
N2709P

[Steve Pierce]

A 1956 Tri-Pacer should have the brake under the pilot seat. Will get a pic how we did our 53.

[N2709P]

Steve, correction. Fat thumb typing. The aircraft is a 1955. We do have a nice 1956 fuselage for sale though.
N2709P

[Subsonic]

I found the installation drawing for the O-320 (14474). It shows the breather line terminating well up inside the cowling and not exiting below the firewall. Was there a SL or SB to reroute the line below the firewall? It seems with the AD to keep the oil out of the bootcowl area, having the terminus of the breather line about 6 inches above the bottom of the left lower firewall inside the cowling would not be the best position to select.
N2709P
About a year ago I made a new breather out of 3/4" (i think)2136921370 5052 that exits left side of boot cowl below the bottom edge of the firewall. On the high side, a short piece of rubber tubing hose clamps between the engine and the breather tube. It starts with a bend using a 3 or 4" radius 90 degree into a straight vertical fall on the firewall until it gets to the lower engine mount area. There, I had to bend it out about an inch and a half (forward), then curving a bit aft to clear the engine mount tubing. I use the original (I think they're original, anyway) firewall mounting studs for attaching Adel clamps. It's terminated with an aft facing slash cut. I think if you were to slash cut it to the front side, it could work like a ram air scoop of sorts and may positively pressurize your crankcase. No good. I'd prefer to pull a vacuum on my crankcase. Don't forget your whistle vent. Works great!

[Subsonic]

Correction to my last post: the Alu. 5052 tubing is 5/8 of an inch OD and 1/2 inch ID.

[Gregor6712]

Hi, it looks very much like this was piston rings. I designed my own separator which worked perfect, but it did not changed a lot.

Although the compression was in the high 70ies I did replaced now all thre cylinders which are ~1400hrs. The last one, which is remaining was replaced 500hrs ago. At the end the engine burned aoround 0,4ltr/hr, even if oil level was not high. Please cross your fingers, that was the reason...

I will keep You updated.

[Gilbert Pierce]

I had Superior cylinders I purchased new. At 1400 hours I was burning a quart of oil an hour. Compressions in the 70’s.
I pulled the cylinders, all four had stuck oil control rings caused by blow-by past the valve guides which were flat worn out.

[RickF]

I had Superior cylinders I purchased new. At 1400 hours I was burning a quart of oil an hour. Compressions in the 70’s.
I pulled the cylinders, all four had stuck oil control rings caused by blow-by past the valve guides which were flat worn out.

So you are saying that they were not "Superior"?

Rick

[Gilbert Pierce]

So you are saying that they were not "Superior"?

Rick
Definitely were not superior.

[walt.buskey]

Appreciate your thoughts, Gilbert — Glad my A&P and I agreed to spend the extra $$ for Lycoming cylinders.