Spins ????

[pmanton]

I'm kind of a self taught PA-22 driver. I rented one back in the 50's. Bought one and had a CFI buddy fly back with me when I picked it up. This was his first flight in a shortwing and my first in over 50 years.

My CFI budy feels it would spin rather easily and could be a handful as far as spin recovery goes. I'm not so sure. With the plane's benign stall characteristics I think you'd have to really be ham fisted to force it into a spin. By now I have perhaps 80 hours in the plane and in my opinion it is a forgiving easy to fly machine. The only thing that I've found to be wary of is the sink rate which if you keep some energy isn't a real worry.

What do you experienced Shortwingers have to say about spins? Will it spin readily? If one did enter a spin is recovery conventional--that is release back pressure and opposite rudder?

Thanks

Paul
N1431A
KPLU

[Steve Pierce]

I have spun a couple of Short Wings but it was very difficult to start. Took a very high nose up stall and hard rudder to start and then my clipper went over on her back and then spun. Neutral controls with opposite rudder stopped it.

[Bultaco Jim]

From everything I have heard/read, the old Pipers are going to be easier to get out of a spin than any of the swept-tail planes, because the swept-tail is blocked from the moving air by the wing. So you have to push the swept-tail further over (more nose-down) to make the rudder effective. ( unless you enter a spin the way Steve does it!) I'll take the shortwing over a (are you ready for this Hillbilly?) Cessna in this department anyday. I agree with Steve, it's very hard to spin.

[Hillbilly]

From everything I have heard/read, the old Pipers are going to be easier to get out of a spin than any of the swept-tail planes, because the swept-tail is blocked from the moving air by the wing. So you have to push the swept-tail further over (more nose-down) to make the rudder effective. ( unless you enter a spin the way Steve does it!) I'll take the shortwing over a (are you ready for this Hillbilly?) Cessna in this department anyday. I agree with Steve, it's very hard to spin.

$#@%^$@&!!! I read that post and said that word before I could stop myself! Now my mouth tastes like a handful of pennies and vomit. bleck!

[Frank Green]

I screwed up a wing over one time with a aft CG (what was I thinking, forgot about the guy in the back seat) As Steve said, it ain't easy to get into one, nose almost straight up, ALOT of rudder, went in fairly calm. Release back pressure, opposite rudder, I don't think I turned twice. Problem is when it stops you are pointed straight down and speed increases fast, Gently pulled her out. My 2 passengers wanted to know if we could do it again. Once was enough. BTW, spins are not approved in a 22, but not anything I would worry about, given enough altitude.

[deandayton]

My Colt manual says that spins are approved in Utility category (roughly 100 lbs under normal gross and nothing in the baggage area).

I have tried and couldn't get it to spin.

I can't speak for what is approved in a Tri-Pacer.

[JohnW]

These airplanes HAD to spin to get Certified under CAR3. The ShortWings spin NICE. Probably among the most fun spinning airplanes (Utility Category) that came off a Production Line (altho Cessna Drivers should understand that the Spam Can their instructor showed them one in doesn't know the meaning of the words "wind up"). These things are short span, an honest airfoil and don't resist corkscrewing around much, and they turn on the "rather quick end" of the scale. Yes, they DO point kinda straight down, compared to some. Frank, you musta sucked up a bump in the seat cushion that looked like a trailer hitch if you fell off a wingover and can say "I don't think it turned twice". I start to get a little Antsy after a dozen or more turns in a ShortWing -mainly because of the rotation speed- and oh yeah... you want to get the throttle out as soon as it has seriously gone over. You really don't need it again until the airspeed has starting winding CCW again.

Now, playing around with "almost straight up" as a stall entry is liable to get someone into serious trouble in a ShortWing. These airplanes WILL do a wingover all their own in that kind of stall entry, and depending on your control inputs (or a wayward gust input, I suppose) they will spin inverted. This is one place you do NOT want to be in a ShortWing Piper. Maybe everyone's Hero (Clyde Smith JR) has some stories about his Old Man (Clyde Smith, the Piper Test Pilot/Wing Tearer-Offer) hitting the silk over the Alleghenies, but I don't recommend that kind of fun. TRIM your ShortWing into slow decel instead of hand-flying it with cruise trim and it will stall, but I also question what some people "expect". People that "learned to drive" in a Cessna want to see a "whoopsie-doodle" when they stall...just seems like a little Engineered-in DRAMA, to me. But then, "feeling a stall" is a bit of an oxymoron in a Cessna anyway so you HAVE TO be able to see something dramatic! The ShortWing has a very uneventful stall, but when it bobs down once plant the yoke (or stick, if yer flying a FUN airplane) on your breastbone (or wherever it is your stick lands when it is ALL THE WAY back. Danger, Will Robinson! Try this move at least ONCE on the ground with the engine not running just to make sure you have clearance, Clarence), and then when it bobs back up once, put the boot to 'er before she nuzzles down the second time and... over She goes! DON'T counter-control and stop it!!! Let her go over! Once it really does turn over (and they DO), give it enough time with the yoke full back to let fly with a decent "Yahhhhh-HOOO!" and by then ya now know why they call 'em "spins" rather than "a twisty". Watch the road start winding up (you'll get a GOOD LOOK out the windshield, you don't have to look around to find it). Oh, and not only should you adhere to the AFM about Utility Ops, make sure there isn't anything more stout than a Sectional lying around in the airplane. PA-22 tow bars hurt. Also, I personally think the nosewheel on the -22 makes it look "down" straighter than the taildragger in the spin (I think). Finally, don't do anything STUPID like tear the wings off. Recovery is "by-the-book" and absolutely straightforward. Oh while we're on "Absolutely": Do not try this without Adult Supervision unless you know all about it from previous personal experience. They DO build up speed straight down... ONCE YOU STOP THE SPIN. In a REAL spin, the airplane is stalled all the time it is "not flying" and these Dudes are pretty "dirty" airplanes. They'll spin more than you'll want to. If your speed is building up while the airplane is "turning", you are SPIRALLING, not spinning. The biggest problem with people thinking these airplanes will "not stall" is that the Operator isn't holding the airplane "stalled". Virtually ANYTHING less than "full back" and they will at least TRY to start flying again. Once the spin is FULLY FORMED, if you take both feet off the rudders, it will KEEP spinning until you let the yoke forward. (at which time you are now officially "recovering", so don't try to get "fancy" and do something "secondary"). Once you get a few under your belt and are getting reasonably sure about the outcome, try the age-old advice about "letting go of everything", and report back here (heehee...the airplane will show you how to "do it RIGHT"). This is all slightly more fun to do than watching You-Tube flics of Citabrias doin' it. But if you like Acrobatics, take some advice... get a Pitts.

Dean, its 150 pounds difference (1500 v. 1650) no baggage AND the right tank is supposed to be empty (they apparently never took the time to certify the Colt with the "Aux Tank" installed and filled. Besides, it gets pretty hard to stay under 1500 pounds with an Instructor AND parachutes on board). The reason you can't make it spin is because it won't spin unless it is stalled. I am fully aware of "my Milstool won't stall" but have only seen that to be true twice. Both times the controls were rigged incorrectly and the elevator did not have specified Up-travel. Now, before everybody starts re-rigging, let me say again: TRIM into slow decel, don't hand-fly it from cruise trim settings. I have NEVER see one correctly rigged that had to be "yanked" into the stall. But you are fighting the AOA when the stab is trimmed "down". And again, you have to HOLD THE STALL with full back elevator at "max slow" or it will "recover". And BTW... PA-22s with conventional gear mods are NOT certified in the Utility Category (unless someone has recently changed that).

[Stephen]

JW, reading your blurb on spins is almost as much fun as doing one, at least one in a Cessna.

[Steve Pierce]

Once you get a few under your belt and are getting reasonably sure about the outcome, try the age-old advice about "letting go of everything", and report back here (heehee...the airplane will show you how to "do it RIGHT").

That is how I did my first one in the Clipper with a couple of hours under my belt. Scared me so bad I let go expecting my buddy to take it and she got herself out. I think I had to add a little rudder.

I have spun a couple of Short Wings but it was very difficult to start. Took a very high nose up stall and hard rudder to start and then my clipper went over on her back and then spun. Neutral controls with opposite rudder stopped it.

I thought it was the ground that stopped it! I think you said it went down like a "yard dart". Maybe that was another Clipper. Ouch!

[Steve Pierce]

Same airplane, different event.

[azevedoflyer]

Previous owner of my PA22/20-150 (an A&P plus 50+ years of crop spraying under his belt!) and I went flying her (his last flight before all his systems shut down for good and he headed West). He was in the left seat. He climbed up to 3500', cleared the area and we started a series of spins to the right and to the left. Here my notes:
1 - It was impossible to enter a fully developed spin without trimming properly.
2 - Once proper recovery was initiated, spin would stop promptly, pronto! Better even than the gliders I flew many, many moons ago...
3 - In a fully developed spin, you can feel the plane "letting go...". It felt like tearing through an aerodynamic "spider web". She really corkscrewed then...to the satisfaction of the old timer!

And then we went through some loops. It was fun and conforting having your own airplane demonstrated to you by a pro.
When I remarked that "I should try it myself", the advice came thick and fast: "get proper instruction or you will find yourself on your back..."

In my opinion, light airplanes designed from 1945 - 1960 benefited from the best trained designers ever, most of them having gone through the exercise numerous times (WW2). Thus, resulting planes were "honest to God" planes, all vices wringed off. How many planes do present aircraft designers go through in their entire lives? They would be lucky if they had their hands in one that made production...
Cheers,
Miguel Azevedo
PA22/20-150

[Steve Pierce]

The engineers I know just develope one ittle part except for a few who were involved in a couple of light sport designs.

I tore my bird up pretty good this past weekend. I was attempting a short field landing using slow flight technique, [full flaps and power for descent]. Dead calm at my local field, straight in approach over descending terrain, about an hour before sunset. I was all set up with 100' to go to the threshold in a stabilized approach but the nose was so high that I couldn't see the runway. I brought in a little more power and nudged the nose over with some right rudder. The right wing dipped and then whipped the left wing down hard. Fortunately I was only about 20' AGL.

The left wing hit and buckled at the landing light/ strut attach points, folded the left gear out, suffered a strong prop hit which bounced the plane 180 degrees, tore off the nose gear and folded the right gear under the plane. The tail skid hit and slightly bent the right tail feather.

The whole thing was over in under 1 or 2 seconds. I instinctively shut the fuel off, made a quick radio call and killed the electrical buss, and punched out the pilots side window. I was nearly on the taxiway by the time several cars pull up. Seems they were having a party with a band and about 65 people. Nothing like an audience when you are at your finest.

Photos below. Broke 4" off both ends of the prop. Landed in the dirt runover area. I had the plane tore down and stowed within 2 days. Looks like it's time to start my project.

Regards;

Mark Phillips
312 hrs PIC -[attachment=2:2g406ne8]photo-one.jpg[/attachment:2g406ne8][attachment=2:2g406ne8]photo-one.jpg[/attachment:2g406ne8]

[Stephen]

Mark, sorry about the plane, but good you are fine.

I tried a gear up landing once in my Pacer when the right grear leg broke on a landing in my field. Not good for the plane, but an opportunity to do those mods when rebuilding.

[Steve Pierce]

Mark, Very sorry to hear and see this. Unfortunately I know how you feel. If I can help in any way let me know. I have a fuselage jig and lots of parts. If you want to come to Graham and fix your fuselage we have an apartment in the hanger you are welcome to stay in.

[pistoncan]

I am also sad to see the pics of your accident. I wiped the landing gear off off one in an emergency landing in a hay field/corn field back about 1980 so I can relate. Were you hull insured? I have an extra rear spar if it will help. Gary

Thanks for all the messages about my "failure to maintain controllable airspeed" incident and all the offers of help, parts, support, etc. I have gotten the airframe broken down and assessed the damage. It was more extensive than I first thought. I think a jig sill be required to get it straight again. I have been trying to reach Airwrench about his Producer STC but haven't gotten a response. I have an idea what I want to do with the wings. His Aircraft really seems to be the natural evolution and I would really like to get some technical information or plans on how to get there from here.

I haven't told the wife and she hasn't asked. She knew I was flying the plane down to the hanger for the annual inspection so I plan on telling her that I "uncovered some structural issues with the aircraft during the inspection" that might "take a while to resolve".

Best wishes;

Mark Phillips

[Stephen]

I haven't told the wife and she hasn't asked. She knew I was flying the plane down to the hanger for the annual inspection so I plan on telling her that I "uncovered some structural issues with the aircraft during the inspection" that might "take a while to resolve".


Does this make you a coward???

[craigh]

I haven't told the wife and she hasn't asked. She knew I was flying the plane down to the hanger for the annual inspection so I plan on telling her that I "uncovered some structural issues with the aircraft during the inspection" that might "take a while to resolve".


Does this make you a coward???

No, just an "experienced" husband. : :mrgreen:

[Bultaco Jim]

"Coward" and "Experienced Husband" are redundant.

Both! But who knows how justification comes to each of us? Divine inspiration? Denial? Desperation? Desire for peace "at any costs"?

I figured telling her the truth would be like admitting I had an affair that she never knew about. One minute she is in ignorant bliss, the next minute her world is turned upside down and she is afraid. The lessons to be learned are mine not hers and sharing them will not make my failure as a pilot easier to address.

She is a wonderful partner and would not demand any action from me like selling the plane or never flying with our child.

"seasoned husband"

[pmanton]

Another tack might be---"I just rolled our airplane up into a ball and walked away without even a bump---these Piper Shortwings are really strong and safe---I'm sure glad I got ours"

Cheers:

Paul
N1431A
KSDM

[smcnutt]

Another tack might be---"I just rolled our airplane up into a ball and walked away without even a bump---these Piper Shortwings are really strong and safe---I'm sure glad I got ours"

Cheers:

Paul
N1431A
KSDM
Might be the smart way to go n the long run. My wife would eventually find out (somebody saying something years from now, etc.) and then it would really hit the fan.

[Hillbilly]

Heartbreaking Mark, as to "informing" the wife this is my area of expertise. :oops: Tell her it was some sort of freak equipment failure, for example " Well honey the spring broke in the right brake and it locked up, causing the wipeout." This way she can be confident in both your piloting skill and the integrity of the bird, and you dont have to hide it. If your wife is like most the "freak out factor" is proportional to the length of elapsed time between said event and disclosure...Best of luck

[azevedoflyer]

Guys,
I think I posted my own experience some time ago.
Just to re-assure those doubters out there, it was demonstrated to me by an old pro that my PA22/20 is hard to get into a true spin but once in, she comes out even quicker than it takes to get her in!
My background for comparison is gliders, which I flew for more than 20 years. Recovering, the Piper best them all that I flew, except for a handfull, generally instruction 2 seaters.
Cheers,
Miguel Azevedo

[Chris Iriarte]

Has anyone done spins in a Tri-pacer (Utility category, of course!)? If so, any surprises in the recovery?

Chris

[rwdurham]

It spins like it stalls. You have to work at it. Mine had the interconnect and just did the standard recovery. (That's how it works in the utility category anyway.) :roll::roll::icon_biggrin:

[Frank Green]

I spun mine once, had a couple of teen age boys for a flight and they were bored so did some stalls and such, went to do a wing over and forgot about the aft cg, back seat passenger. Didn't get the tail over and she went into a nose down spin. Turned about 1 1/2 but came right out with opposite rudder, except I was in a vertical dive. Speed came up real fast and eased her out of the dive back to level flight. Passengers asked if we could do it again and I said no, one per flight. I've spun Cherokees before, not much different.

[Steve Pierce]

Spun my Clipper once, took an abrupt opposite rudder/aileron and it rolled over on its back. Neutral controls and it was over.

[mmoyle]

My instructor put my Pacer into a spin when I couldn't. Someone in the airplane let out a scream...sounded like a little girl.......did that come out of me......?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Pacer42Z]

I used to do spins in a Champ and loved it. Never tried the Pacer since I thought it was not approved for spins.

Juergen
Pacer N3342Z

[Glen Geller]

I used to do spins in a Champ and loved it. Never tried the Pacer since I thought it was not approved for spins.
Juergen
Pacer N3342Z

Not approved for INTENTIONAL spins.
If you UNINTENTIONALLY spin it and recover, and repeat UNINTENTIONALLY spinning it, you are golden.
As long as you recover.

GG

[Max Buffet]

A wise old pilot told me, "If it doesn't have the control authority to intentionally enter a spin, they also don't have the authority to recover from one".
I can't imagine how I would have to abuse my Pacer to get it to spin.
Not that I'm going to try, you understand. Why would I?
I have spun some airplanes and indeed my primary CFI spun me before solo. But in airplanes approved for it.

[mmoyle]

My instructor and I discussed spins....we both knew the Pacer wasn't approved for spins....he wanted to insure I understood how to correct a spin if it happened...just like wheel landings....made me do one...then said...one is enough, don't do it again.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Max Buffet]

My instructor and I discussed spins....we both knew the Pacer wasn't approved for spins....he wanted to insure I understood how to correct a spin if it happened...just like wheel landings....made me do one...then said...one is enough, don't do it again.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Well, this is ticklish area. I'm new around here and hesitant to speak up. No dues paid, etc...
Plus, I don't want to second guess or question your CFI. Other factors were likely in play.
That said, students don't just listen to their instructors. More importantly, they observe their actions. If the CFI skips a checklist when rushed, guess what their student will do when out in the world. Same for aircraft limitations.
I'm an old fart and obviously "old school". I believe spins are an important part of flight training. He/She should have spun you, but maybe in a different airplane.
Wheel landings are a different deal! They're cheating! ;-) Seriously much easier, but as my primary instructor told me, " Yeah, nice touchdowns, but if you need to put it in an unplanned short field, you better be good at 3-points".
Tailwinds, buddy.

[Chris Iriarte]

Not sure about the Pacer, but spins are not prohibited for Tri-pacers modified for Utility category (interconnect removed). But, I remember reading in this forum somewhere about Clyde Smith Sr. commenting on spinning a Tri-pacer and that big nose wheel getting in the way of a good recovery.

Chris

[Subsonic]

I thought the idea behind the modification to remove the PA22 interconnect, per the Piper drawing which requires the installation of Colt bellcrank and stronger springs, was to aid spin recovery which was determined to be a little too slow in FAA certification testing, due to the weather-vaning rudder effect of the big nose wheel.

[gliderman]

IMHO
I think everyone should become proficient in spin recovery.
go to your local gliding club and learn proper spin recovery.... it is kind of glossed over up here in the great white north in the "power" world. i learned it in flight training but a 172 has fairly benign spin characteristics

. one of the gliders I instruct in (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SZD-50_Puchacz) teaches you the correct way to recover from a spins. It isn't very forgiving if you do it wrong. you sometimes have to put the nose past vertical to break the stall
I learned a lot when learning to fly this glider. spins are no longer a problem.....
other things... well lol

[EddieFoy]

Spin recovery is one of the first things the USAF teaches you. Its was done in T37.. The recovery had to be commited to memory. If you did it wrong you spun all the way in. It happened a few times.

[piperrocks2013]

Well, this is ticklish area. I'm new around here and hesitant to speak up. No dues paid, etc...
Plus, I don't want to second guess or question your CFI. Other factors were likely in play.
That said, students don't just listen to their instructors. More importantly, they observe their actions. If the CFI skips a checklist when rushed, guess what their student will do when out in the world. Same for aircraft limitations.
I'm an old fart and obviously "old school". I believe spins are an important part of flight training. He/She should have spun you, but maybe in a different airplane.
Wheel landings are a different deal! They're cheating! ;-) Seriously much easier, but as my primary instructor told me, " Yeah, nice touchdowns, but if you need to put it in an unplanned short field, you better be good at 3-points".
Tailwinds, buddy.


Good Morning, well like Max mentioned this is a ticklish area. Even though I'm young lad in the aviation world I will have to say I'm kinda against spins all together. I agree you should learn to recognize it and recover. But just to go out and do them in airplane not approved for spins, probably not the best idea. Very stressful on the airframe and I have seen couple back windows shattered from it when things didn't go as planned in the Cessna world, further more there is few planes I can think of that are very tricky to recover if you do get them into a spin. What I'm about is to strongly teach how not to enter a spin. Most spins occur during the landing or takeoff phase of flight and the simple fact is if you do enter a spin under 1000 feet.. Doesn't matter what you know your DEAD! Personally known lots of HIGH TIME Pilots with over 9000 hrs that only spinned the plane during training. Each to there own. Don't care for it, actually hate them myself but it was good I was thought during my training days and it be left there.

Jared

[EddieFoy]

I hated doing them in USAF training. Especially knowing that the plane would not recover itself.

I agree that the chances of recovering from a spin in a Cub at low altitude, where it is most likely to happen, is slim or none.

Maybe thats why they are not taught in primary flight training as I understand it.

[andya]

I think when they dropped spins from the PPL training curriculum, it was because the newer generation aircraft coming out were more spin resistant (cessna's and cherokee').
I learned in a j-3 and my dad wouldn't let me solo till we did a couple ride for spins. First one, the cub wouldn't spin. I think the killer stall spin accident is done occurs
too low to recover and idea is to either see it coming and not let it get there, hence spin prevention. I would not let my daughter solo til she had spins.

[EddieFoy]

Modern aircraft are usually not tested or certified for spins. Thats why the emphasis is stall recognition and recovery. If you dont stall it, it wont spin.

May roll upside down though.

It took me awhile with my Cub before I was comfortable approaching at 1.1 Vs instead of 1.3 Vs. Never had a reason to do that before.

[DrHook3960]

I had spins demonstrated in a Cessna 150 during initial training. Later in a 172 I did my own. Finally in a basic aerobatic course in a Citabria 7KCAB We did spins and recovered on a predetermined heading. I loved them all. Great confidence building.

[robertsailor]

There is a good case for both sides on the spin training debate. The main issue in my mind is that the stall spin accidents rarely if ever happen the way you are shown in training. It is more common that you would stall in a turn while low and slow and when that happens the plane flicks the opposite direction of the turn which can be very disorientating for a pilot, especially close to the ground. I taught aerobatics for years and while spin training was part of the training I spent more time just teaching the student how to recover quickly by changing the angle of attack (stick quickly forward) Stalls were demonstrated in both steep turns and in slow flight in a turn so the student can understand what is happening. If you check forward and change the angle of attack of the wing the aircraft will simply fly. Same as stalling on the top of a loop, keep pulling back and the aircraft stalls and starts to roll upright and if you check forward when level it will simply fly away.
I have never spun the Pacer so I can't give you any feedback on it.

[Frank Green]

Sounds like I am one of a few to have actually spun a Tri. Like I said didn't plan it. Was almost vertical, which isn't easy in a Tri. And recovered no problem. Do it again? Nope. I was lucky i was at 3,500 AGL and lost about 1,500 so yea close to ground TO and landing, not much chance of recovery. In normal flight there isn't much chance of getting into that condition so where would spin training be beneficial? Well sometimes we are stupid and was glad I knew what to do.

[Theo]

My APM seems to indicate that they can be spun in the Utility Category.
Supplement No 3 to airplane flight manual dated 3 Sept 1954 installation of controls modification kit for operation in utility category per piper drawing No 14926.
10999

[rocket 204]

i used to spin my piper colt , it would only spin with a bit of power on ,otherwise just wallow around , never had any problem recovering , or just let go of the controls and it would stop right away

[Subsonic]

Utility category basically states a PA-22-150 Tri-Pacer is rated for spins under the appropriate load conditions (weight-balance). I would like to know how many of you have done spins in your Tri-Pacers, and what experiences you would care to relate. Any advice to pass on? I'm thinking 8,000 feet to start with belts tight...Thanks.

[Steve Pierce]

The only way I was able to spin the Tri-Pacer was to pull the nose up and cross control abruptly. It rolled over on it's back and didn't really spin, nuetral controls and it came out immediately.

[Frank Green]

Spun my tri by accident once. Was at 4k, and tried to do a wing over, forgot about back seat passenger, aft cg. Next thing I knew I was nose down spin. Opposite rudder came right out after about 2 turns. Now I'm straight down dive and gaining airspeed. Gently pulled her level. My 2 young passengers wanted another. Nope 1 per ride I said. Now I know no problem, haven't done it again in the tri since. I believe spin training should be mandatory for a PPL.

[robertsailor]

Pacer and Tripacer are not real spin machines as the elevator is limited and doesn't allow the wing to fully stall.

[rideandfly]

Hope to have a Vagabond early next month, have not spun a Piper, yet.

Have spun the Cessna Aerobat 150 and 152 quite a bit. The 152 with the 0-235 engine was a little harder to get into a fully developed spin compared to the 150 with lighter 0-200 engine. I liked to enter the spin by accelerating the stall and applying full rudder in direction of spin to get a crisp spin entry.

Successfully used the NASA recovery technique in aircraft flown for spin recovery. PARE, power idle, ailerons neutral, hold full rudder opposite spin, and elevator briskly just beyond neutral until rotation stops, recover from dive with coordinated control inputs.

Beggs-Mueller spin recovery technique does not work in the Aerobat, Power-Off, Remove hand from the stick, Apply full opposite rudder until rotation stops, recover from dive with coordinated control inputs.

Bill Kershner (Spin Doctor) taught me positive G spins in the Aerobat using the NASA recovery technique. Gene Beggs let me know that the Beggs-Mueller technique would not work in the Aerobat after he saw an article I wrote about the Aerobat. Bill Kershner showed me at about 19 or 20 turns in the Aerobat that opposite rudder and letting go of the yoke does not work in the Aerobat, it continued to spin with full up elevator until the NASA recovery inputs were used recovering at 22 turns, hard to keep up with exactly how many turns for some reason. Since the engine shut off around 12 turns and stopped windmilling, before restart, Bill joking said to open the window and holler "clear prop" before restart. :-)

Spins can be included with flight reviews, at least a couple turns in my humble opinion, if the aircraft used is approved for spins.

[Pacer42Z]

Utility category basically states a PA-22-150 Tri-Pacer is rated for spins under the appropriate load conditions (weight-balance). I would like to know how many of you have done spins in your Tri-Pacers, and what experiences you would care to relate. Any advice to pass on? I'm thinking 8,000 feet to start with belts tight...Thanks.

Subsonic, have you done the spins in your Tri-Pacer yet? If yes, how was it?

Juergen
Pacer N3342Z

[Subsonic]

No I have not spun my Tri-pacer yet, Juergen. I will feedback when I have. I've played with entering a hard right hand slipping stall a few times at altitude, to get a feel for it, and it seems as if I will have to be more aggressive with full rudder and up elevator to get it to fully develop. Being an old skydiver I felt a bit uneasy without a parachute while doing that maneuver.

[pa20]

As stated above, add a little weight in the back to move the CG aft...It'll spin!

[SMO22]

As stated above, add a little weight in the back to move the CG aft...It'll spin!

Have you done a lot of spins in your Pacer? That adding wt in back makes sense, I haven't did a spin in mine, a little scared about how well it recovers. I did spin training in a 152 and it is fun to spin, and will enter easy with two people, but with only myself I could only get a high speed dive. I would like to try spinning my plane but without knowing how well it would recover or proper recover sequence I haven't did it.

[robertsailor]

If you do add weight to the rearward c of g make sure that it meets Pipers Utilitary Category in the weight and balance as it's not legal to spin them in the normal catagory.
That said, I'm not sure I see the attraction or what benefit one would get as these aircraft are absolute pussy cats in the air.

[Fred Mayes]

I have flown my Pacer for 65 years and I don't remember them being certified in the utility category. All I remember is normal category. Cessna have a utility category and you can spin them in the utility category which is back seats empty, but if you do a weight and balance on all of the Cessna 172's I checked they were out of forward c g., but they would spin anyway.

[Max Buffet]

A wise old pilot once me that if it didn’t have enough control authority to intentionally enter a spin, it may not have enough authority it recover from said spin.
Worth thinking about?

[robertsailor]

If your particular aircraft has no utility category then it will be placarded against intentional spins and you should not spin it. Honestly guys if you want to learn the ins and outs of spin training go rent a Champ/Chief Cub or something similar because your not going to learn much on your PA20 or 22. They are Just a different breed.

[SMO22]

I wonder how the well the Pacer spins and recovers? The only plane I have spins in are 150 and 152, easy entry and recovery, and fun.

[SMO22]

The PA16 has a utility catagory but PA20 does not, strange.

[mmoyle]

Pretty sure spins are prohibited in the PA20. But I can tell you that one of us...me or my instructor screamed like a little girl when it happened. Least I didn’t wet myself.....


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[Theo]

The Airplane flight manual (report 817) for the PA-22 appears to show spins can possibly be performed in the utility catagory. On page 2 it states there is a placard or should be that says "operate in normal category in compliance with the approved flight manual. Acrobatics including spins prohibited. NO acrobatic maneuvers approved for Normal Category Operation. But in the supplement page 2 under maneuvers it says the following maneuvers are approved for operation in the utility category only. Spins is in that list and for entry speed it has stall listed.
Not that I would do spins but that is what is listed in the paperwork. It also lists spin recovery.
.17593

[59pacer]

The utility category for the PA22 is very much restricted by weight and c of g limitations.
I could get mine into Utility by me losing a lot of weight, and working out how to fly it with almost no fuel. Neither of those is likely!

[SMO22]

Looks like the 16 is easier to load in utility, the Colt looks less restrictive than the 22-150. Pan Am must have told Piper they couldnt fly the Pacer in utility catagory I guess, surprised they let a float version out.

I wonder if thats just a story or if Pan Am really did cause the end of the Piper Clipper? I wonder if Piper had plans to change the name to Pacer already and end the Clipper, or if the 1950 Clipper would have had a yoke and flaps?

[Gilbert Pierce]

Clipper hard to spin easy to stop.

[anthonyp]

Was looking through the PA 22 150 Owner's Handbook. I could not find any details on whether or not the PA-22-150 is approved (or not approved) for intentional spins and for intentional spirals.

I've read on this forum that (intentional spins) are prohibited, but I am having difficulty citing the source of this. As for spirals, I am unsure of the boards consensus, but again would like to find a source where this is cited.

Many thanks.

[Frank Green]

I believe you will find it on the TCDS the official document for all certified aircraft and I can say personally i once screwed up a wing over with a aft cg (back seat passenger) and recovery from the unintended spin was no big deal.

[anthonyp]

I believe you will find it on the TCDS the official document for all certified aircraft and I can say personally i once screwed up a wing over with a aft cg (back seat passenger) and recovery from the unintended spin was no big deal.

Thank you for the quick reply. I now see that the TCDS refers to spins as such: "Operate in Normal Category in compliance with approved Flight Manual. Acrobatics (including spins) prohibited"

Do you know if there is there anything on spirals by chance?

[anthonyp]

Upon further investigation, it looks like the PA-22-150 can be approved for intentional spins in the Utility Category so long as a control modification kit is installed.

"Note 2 (g) On the instrument panel in full view of the pilot when Item 407 is installed: (1) "Operate in Normal or Utility Category in compliance with the approved Flight Manual. Airplane marked for Normal Category. Acrobatics (including spins) prohibited in Normal Category"

"NOTE 3. Serial Nos. 22-3218, 22-3387 and up, of Model PA-22-150 or PA-22-160, are eligible to be operated as a Normal or Utility Category Airplane in compliance with the approved Airplane Flight Manual provided Item 407 (Control modification kit) is installed. Propeller Item 6 is not eligible when Item 407 is installed."

[dgapilot]

You need the kit for Utility and the Flight Manual Supplement to legally do spins. Even at that, it’s hard to actually get a PA-22 to spin unless you really pull the nose up for the stall.


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[Subsonic]

I'm interested in trying to spin my PA22-150. I have the TCDS Item 407 mod. Question: Must you wear a parachute if intentionally attempting to spin?

[Gilbert Pierce]

Googled it:
https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-building/intro-to-aircraft-building/frequently-asked-questions/parachutes-during-aerobatics (https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-building/intro-to-aircraft-building/frequently-asked-questions/parachutes-during-aerobatics)

Do you need a parachute to do spins?



Yet even though parachutes are not required for spin training, it is recommended that they be worn nonetheless, if available. Many other all-attitude training maneuvers will necessarily exceed 30 degrees of pitch and 60 degrees of bank; therefore, parachutes will be required.



https://www.faasafety.gov › mar › g...

Guidelines For Pilots Seeking All Attitude Training - FAA Safety (https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2012/mar/guidelines_for_all_attitude_training.pdf)Yet even though parachutes are not required for spin training, it is recommended that they be worn nonetheless, if available. Many other all-attitude training maneuvers will necessarily exceed 30 degrees of pitch and 60 degrees of bank; therefore, parachutes will be required.

[6PapaWhiskey]

Per 14 CFR 91.307, if you are solo, no parachute is required:

https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-building/intro-to-aircraft-building/frequently-asked-questions/parachutes-during-aerobatics