Maule Wing on Pacer?

[chrisg]

Hi all,
Has anyone seen, heard, or theorized of an Maule M5 wing on a pacer? Or, do you have any thoughts on the pros/cons?

I'm curious to know if that would be a good combination for an experimental pacer. I've heard that the attach points and strut fittings are the same on the M4 and M5s and it seems like it might be a good way to get a little bit longer wing (with much longer flaps, and ailerons placed out to the wing ends) without all the labor of customizing a pacer wing. Can anyone confirm or deny the similarity in attach point sizes, lift strut angle and length, etc?

Thanks,
Chris

[d.grimm]

I've thought they were very similar and I heard B.D. started with a Pacer. Sounds interesting if you could get the dimensions right.
Dave

[pistoncan]

Chris,
If my memory serves me correctly Belford Maule started with a pacer and a Cont. 0-300 engine, so the wing spacing would probably be the same. The prototype was called a BEE DEE. According to Wiklpedia the wingspan of a M-4 is 29ft 9 inches, and the M-5 is 30ft 10 in, so I don't think you Gain much over a sqaured off wing SWP. I would imagine the Maule wing is a lot more expensive than a SWP wing. I don't know if the airfoil is differeent from the piper USA35b airfoil.

[Ononeleg]

I'm interested in this too, not because I want to put Maule wings on my experimental, but I am curious how the Maule can carry more weight at a higher speed and I want my experimental to be as strong as it can reasonably be. Do Maules have heavier struts and spars? What usually fails on a typical Pacer wing

[danP]

Hi Chris, Ononeleg, here's what "I think" I know. First, the Maule wing is the same as the pacer except; 1. squared off, 2. the aileron moved out and is a bit shorter, 3. the flap is extended. The Maule wing construction I'm not sure about except that it is metal and not fabric. One other point; I believe the Maule flap has a 7 degree reflex when not deployed which increases cruise. If I were doing an experimental pacer I would make the changes to the aileron and flaps, square off the wing and use a D&E wing tip or a Sullivan hoener style on the original wing and not bother with a Maule wing.. If I wanted to strengthen the wing further I'd talk to someone who knew what to do, because I don't. One thing to remember, most Maules have 200+ horsepower. That's where the performance comes from.

[Steve Pierce]

Maule wing construction is similar to the Piper wing they just rivet aluminum to the ribs instead of fabric. They are mot monocoque construction. Maules go faster because of horse power and constant speed props. I maintain a 160 hp Maule. It weighs 1500 lbs plus empty and my Pacer spanked it's but in climb. I know of an experimental Maule being built with a slotted Super Cub wing and a supped up 540. Our wings will handle the speed but the gross weight is the issue. The wing attach fittings made solid instead of with the relief and a little more support at the strut attach fittings and aileron and flap hangers.

[Ononeleg]

Thanks, Dan and Steve, for the replies. I'm planning on taking your advice, Dan. It sounds like there have to be little changes to everything to help raise the yellow arc. Steve, what do you mean by, "the wing attach fittings made solid instead of with the relief"? There doesn't happen to be a Maule drawings cd out there somewhere, does there?

[Steve Pierce]

Look at the aluminum blocks at the wing attach fittings and the strut attach fittings. They have a radius cut in them. When Dakota Cub was doing the load tests to take their Super Cub wing to 2300 lbs. per Part23 standards those parts at the wing attach failed.

[Stephen]

I would stick with the Piper wing, then extend them to 31 foot wing span. Use a Piper splice...it is very strong. Put Sullivan tips on. Move the aileron out, consider adding 6 inches more to the outboard of the aileron...this will balance the loads to the hinges and further increase roll rate. Then add 24 inches more to the flaps. To midegate increased loads to the wing, lower the V_ne and V_fe, add and an extra rib outboard of the strut attachment, respacing all the outboard ribs to about 12 inches. Finally, add a modified PA 18 jury strut...then you are good to go.

[chrisg]

I'm very, very far from an expert, but I have amassed some information about similarities and differences of the Maule M4/5 and a Pacer. As we know the Maule started as a modified pacer, so it's no surprise that they have some things in common. I have some M4/5 drawings and was surprised by identical tube layout and dimensions on several parts of the fuselage, etc.

At any rate, I was originally considering the M5 wings to save build time. The only difference between the wing attach fittings is that the strut attach on the wings is something like 1/8" further outboard and the strut angle is slightly different. I think that the root and strut bolts and fittings are all the same. The M4/5 wings have the same cable controlled flaps. The Maule wings use heavier spars and they don't have the drag wires (instead the metal skin is structural). It would be totally possible to use Maule wings on a Pacer (with just a little tweaking).

There are several reasons I didn't go this route:
1. The FAA doesn't like people reusing certified components. :-)
2. The M5 wing is slightly longer, but not much (29'-3" versus 30'-10"). I wanted 32' span.
3. They aren't any lighter.
4. Sheet metal work/repair is much harder than fabric work (for me).

Longer Piper style wings can be built with parts from many different sources (D&E, Univair, Wag-Aero, Backcountry Super Cubs, etc.) and there are several examples of using the short lift struts with longer wings. The Blanton V6 STOL plans show how to modify a pacer wing to 32'. I'm not saying this is the best way to do it, but quite a few have been built and flown without issues. The same type of changes can be made to a scratch-built "Piper" wing. It requires a spar doubler on the front spar, above the front strut, an extra flap hinge, and two stiffening tubes. Of course, a person can use longer lift struts (ala the Producer/Bushmaster/etc.), but that is more drag.

I'm kind of rambling here...I'll stop. :-)

[Steve Pierce]

I thought they had the drag and anti-drag wires. Looked in my parts manual and you are correct. They are monocoque wings. Sorry for the misinformation. I would go with a Piper wing for the same reasons you made.