CLIPPER INSIDE FABRIC

[clipquito]

Has anyone put fabric on the inside of the Clipper? If so, does the fabric wrap from the inside around the bottom tubes to the outside or from the outside in? My IA says the floorboard has to rest on the bottom tubes, therefore the fabric must wrap around the outside to the inside to enable this to happen. Took a million pictures on the take apart but of course I don't have a single one that helps answer this question. Thanks.

[Larry Huntley]

Clyde Smith could tell you. He is now working on the restoration of Clipper#1. cubdr@comcast.net Larry

[clipquito]

Good idea. Didn't think of that. Thanks.

[Steve Pierce]

I got my wrecked Clipper back from FL last year and it is covered on the inside around the inside of the tube. It appears to have been covered and then slip with the rudder cable covers hiding the slits but I am not sure since it was in the hands of the FAA, NTSB and a salvage yard since 2002. I intend to cover my interior for weight reasons so I am interested in this subject. I will also see Clyde next week and will pick his brain on this as well. I took some pictures and will up load them when I get a chance at the hanger and a faster connection.

[Steve Pierce]

These are pictures of the inside of my old Clipper. They covered around the tube and then slit the fabric where the floor boards fit over the longeron and the rudder cable covers hid it. You can see where they stooped the fabric under the front seat. I will have to do some more investigating myself now. ;)

[JohnW]

Yeah...that isn't right, Steve... and what a Butchie job at the seat tracks!!! I KNOW you have the ShortWings Dwg CD...look up Section L-L on Dwg. 11988. Then check out the Section through F-F, too. All of this is the same on the PA-20s and PA-22s, as well. Someone was doing a "Oh...DAMN" when they started putting stuff back in that Clipper the last time it was covered. :cry: Booooo.

[Steve Pierce]

Thanks John. I remember looking at that drawing years ago. Gonna have to print it off and go to the fuselage and think hard on every detail but that is how I am going to do my interior. I want to out climb my Dad like I used to when both of us had O-235s. :lol:

[clipquito]

I actually just finished putting the fabric inside my Clipper and it came out great. I did wrap around the lower tubes from the outside in to leave room for the floorboards. I recommend this. BA

[Steve Pierce]

Beth, Please post some photos, I would like to see it. Gotta do mine the same way.

[Hillbilly]

Beth, Please post some photos, I would like to see it. Gotta do mine the same way.


I'd like to see it as well.

[clipquito]

I used the heavy fabric on the inside. I really recommend this. Haven't polybrushed it yet, but I've heard you have to really saturate it. My IA thinks I tightened the panels too tight, but I think they will do just fine. I didn't want it to sag. I ripped my first attempt out. Didn't like the way it pulled away from the frame in the back when I went to tighten it. I also wrapped the wrong way around the lower tubes. You definitely have to wrap from the outside in on the lower tubes so the floorboards will fit in. I'm not happy with several of my cuts, but will probably tape all the tube wraps and put a few patches. I tried to wrap quite a bit around the tubes. Polyfiber recommends scuffing and preglueing the frame -- of course I saw this in the book AFTER mine was done! I'm not worried about it holding even though I didn't scuff. I think the secret is to start with the back piece. I wanted square corners so I glued to the tube on the right side and THE SMALL frame piece on the left side. I fortunately had a good picture of the previous job which was really done well. I also made a fabric reinforcement "casing" which I applied on the OUTSIDE of the tube after the fabric was wrapped and glued around it. I really recommend this. I did not have any trouble with the fabric pulling away when I ironed. My IA wanted me to glue to the rear window frame, but this is not how it was previously done. I glued to the INSIDE OF THE WINDOW FRAME only and was really careful when I ironed so as not to pull it out. The pilot door frame is really difficult. I wrapped all the way around the door frame. If you don't glue to the rear window frame this will work. I glued only at the top of the door frame and let the lower part of the frame do whatever it was going to do. It ironed out OK. I also had a picture of this from the previous covering. I'm not sure how all this would work if the fuselage is already covered -- Steve, didn't you put your outside covering on first? I plan to put a covered strip around the whole cabin where the headliner and the inside fabric join. I have a contrasting piece of regular fabric for this. I'll attach a combination of old and new pictures. Hope this helps.

[Steve Pierce]

Looks good Beth Anne. I haven't covered my interior yet. The pictures I posted were taken of my old Clipper that someone else covered. I down sized your pictures a bit to make them easier to see.

I use SyncToy v2.0 free download from Microsoft http://www.microsoft.com/prophoto/downl ... ybeta.aspx (http://www.microsoft.com/prophoto/downloads/synctoybeta.aspx) To downsize my pictures from the 10 meg I take them in so they are easier to see on the site. I downloaded your pictures so I can use them for reference when I get to my interior fabric.

[clipquito]

Forgot to mention. I glued fabric to fabric on the inside when I added the side pieces to the rear piece. This is really hard to explain. Hope it makes sense.

[clipquito]

MORE PICTURES! THIS IS IT!

[JohnW]

OH DEAR!!! What you have looks really good. Except...You are missing one area that is "reversed" on the sidewall. I call your attention to Dwg. 11988, and particularly Section F-F. This triangular area is "hollowed out" by gluing the interior fabric onto the OUTSIDE of the diagonal tubing there, making it very close to (but it doesn't touch) the outside fabric. This "triangular set-back" is "closed" at the front edge as in Section E-E by turning the rearward-travelling sidewall around the [almost] vertical tube there. Later model airplanes "filled in" this area with another section of fabric glued in there (on the "outside" of these tubes). This is your "saving grace", or "way out" of having to rip/tear and starting over! A little imagination gets you "out of trouble here" with what you've got now. Doing it the way you have done (leaving this area "flush with the inside area of the sidewalls, rather than building in the "set back") results in stripping/ripping the sidewall fabric where the back edge of the seat slides forward and back over the years (or maybe the first time you put the seat in!!!). The rear "pegs" of the seat tear this up unless you have the set back. Believe me when I say MANY have "gone before you" in learning this "lesson" the Hard Way. I HATE to be the bearer of these bad tidings, but better you know NOW than when you "will eventually" learn by yourself. You certainly seem to be taking exemplary efforts to do this right (and "pretty").

Also, while it is really not "important", in their subsequent model airplanes, Piper also finished the sidewall(s) right up past the diagonal tube at the front of your sidewalls. It really did look just a little "half-slow" (okay..."half-FAST") the way Piper left it "unfinished" in this area of the "footwell". Check out PA-20, or -22 model Drawings for how they did the openings for the rudderbar ends, and just bring the fuel lines through the interior fabric however they want to be...It really dresses up the airplane when you are standing behind the right rear strut and are about to step inside of it. You see this "unfinished area" clearly every time you get in. The "weight penalty" for adding interior fabric to this area is probably a whopping THREE OUNCES. But unless you are going for 100% "original" in every respect...it is worth "finishing" the sidewall. Most people would never notice the extra fabric there, anyway...but EVERYBODY sees the "unfinished look" the way Piper did it. Nothing else is affected as far as having that fabric there. You could just cement the fabric for an inch along the inside edge of where your existing fabric turns "out" around the tube (a "lap joint"), and put a finishing tape over it, rather than having to start all over for that, too. There is no flight load on the fabric, there.

But the part at the back lower edge of the seat...THAT is for a very good reason that Piper did it that way!

[clipquito]

Thanks for the info, but I'm not sure I am following you. I don't put the back seat in my airplane ever. We carry backcountry gear only in the back. Is that where you are talking about "reversing" or is in more toward the front where the front seat goes in and out. I'm aware that is an issue -- indeed, the fabric was torn from the previous rebuild for this reason. I plan on really reinforcing the front seat connection points. As for the other area you are referring to, I think you are talking about the open triangle areas first off the firewall -- where the rudder hinges are. My IA plans on covering that area with a light sheet metal. The rudder hinges won't even show. It will be painted to match the rest of the airplane. See photo. BA

[Steve Pierce]

I haven't looked at the drawing yet but I think this is what John is talking about.[attachment=3:htocp2vc]100_3798 (Medium).JPG[/attachment:htocp2vc]

[JohnW]

DEFINITELY where the bottom back edges of the front seat are; where the seat slides in the channel welded at the sides. Like, just fwd of the rear door bottom/front corner, and on the right side...just below the bottom rear corner of the right side door. Has nothing to do with the rear seat whatsoever.

Do you not have the SWPC Drawings CD? I'll attach Dwg. Number 11988, Fabric Installation, Fuselage (PA-16 Dwg set). Find Sections E-E and F-F on the main part of the drawing, then find the detailed Section View. The right hand side, for the very same reasons, is identical but not illustrated. By "reversed" I mean that the fabric is not on the "inside of the tubing, but is on the OUTSIDE of the tubing, giving you a "cove-like" opening in the interior sidewall "skin". This area is NOT visible on an assembled airplane an as such, one would think it is "cosmetically unimportant". But...when you shred the fabric there with the seat track, then it peels and is loose. Now the sidewall fabric up above where you CAN see it is no longer attached (down below) and it becomes very unsightly. This is exactly why your airplane had the fabric shredded there (as did Steve's wrecked Clipper, IF I recall correctly). Duct tape as a future repair... never stays there long. Only way to avoid this problem biting you in the future is to cover it correctly (as shown on the attached Drawing).

Okay, the "forward part" I spoke of as "...really not 'important...'" IS the forward area of the sidewall(s). You understood correctly. If you are going to cover it with alum sheet, you are "handling it" already. I was trying to point out that Piper simply continued the fabric right up to the "zero fuselage station" (at the firewall) on models subsequent to the Clipper and that you could, too.

[clipquito]

Thanks again. I do understand about the door problem. Didn't think about it when I installed the interior. Will see what I can do. I do have the drawing. Amazing what you can figure out if you just look at the drawings!

[Steve Pierce]

OK, I looked at the drawing and it looks like the picture I posted of an original interior fabric from our Tri-Pacer. Pictures/drawings worth a thousand words huh John. ;)

[JohnW]

Oh, I dunno...I LIKE a thousand words, most times! :o

Funny thing, though, about your left side interior fabric (pic no. 100_3798)...I never saw one sewn up from that many scrap pieces (the double French Fell seams where the strips were sewn together, horizontally). Doesn't surprise me much, tho'. Musta been scraping the bottom of the barrel there, using up a couple dozen "short rolls" of raw cotton leftovers, eh? Some people think Piper was "cheap". I think they were "frugal", and VERY GOOD at saving pennies wherever it made sense. I never saw 'em "cheap out" on anything, though. You probably couldn't SEE those seams from the cockpit side, even if you were looking for them!

That is a EXCELLENT shot of the "access hole" for the fuel line/aileron cable conflict (and access to the fuel SOV) on the PA-22 that was discussed in a Thread a few weeks ago! I've had the pleasure too many times of unbolting a fuel valve through that hole (I din' LIKE IT)!!!

[Steve Pierce]

[quote="JohnW"]Oh, I dunno...I LIKE a thousand words, most times! :o

A little fun on my part. :lol:

You are correct, couldn't see the seams from the inside. It was really neat to take apart an unmolested fuselage. Asked Cathy what she wanted to do for Mother's Day and she said she wanted to work on the Tri-Pacer. More disassembly and stripping of parts. It was a productive Sunday. :)

[JohnW]

A little fun on my part. :lol: :)

Yeah. Me too.

HOKEE SMOKES, Bullwinkle!!! I didn't know Cathy was a stripper!

Judging by her expression, however, She enjoys stripping almost as much as I do! In almost every case, I'd really rather whittle a new part out of sheet stock than strip the paint off an original one. Its the one task I can say that I do not enjoy about restoring airplanes. Everything else about it is "basket weaving", to me. Paint removal is Cruel and Unusual Punishment.

Still...Its FANTASTIC to do what you love every day, and somebody will PAY you for doing it, isn't it? Why do people "go on vacation" when they could stay right at home and work on an airplane?

Hey! How's that Cub hanging outa the hangar behind you there fly without the rudder on it?

[Steve Pierce]

Actually those are my daughters doing the stripping so enthusiastically. :lol: Sometimes you gotta go on vacation so you can use em' for their entended purpose. ;) Been having fun showing the girls the how and why of all these little assemblies and they are actually interested. Probably won't be in a few years but maybe so. Maybe they will fly their husbands around and when the airplane breaks get out and fix it. :lol:

The Cub with tail out of the hanger is a perfect example of what happens when things aren't done correctly. Nice looking Cub with a hole in the rudder where that little welding rod that is welded to the trailing edge wasn't taped between the two and vibrated till it broke on one end. :o

[Curly]

Man alive Steve - you were standing right at the front of the queue when the good sorts were handed out.

A wife who wants to work on aeroplanes on Mothers day :o , and daughters who will actually strip parts.
(My grandaughter would have a fit if I suggested something like that - it would ruin her nails, to say nothing of the designer jeans :lol: ).

I hope you appreciate just how lucky you are!

[JohnW]

Roger that, Curly.

Aw, Steve...apologize to your Daughter for me. Sorry for my "thinking she was so "OLD LOOKING"!!! Actually, tell her I think she looks very mature, and that she should think of my mistake as a COMPLIMENT! Maybe you could mention to her that she should at least try to LOOK a little less grossed out, when somebody points a camera at the Work Zone... :lol: :lol:

[clipquito]

I need to correct myself. I said earlier that I did a fabric to fabric overlap on the INSIDE when attaching the side fabric pieces to the rear piece. In fact, I did a fabric to fabric overlap on the OUTSIDE of the rear piece. This made a nice square corner on either side of the rear piece. Then I put a reinforcement strip over where I glued fabric to fabric on the back.

Was thinking of fixing the lack of inset piece of my fabric (the front seat ripping issue) by putting in a triangular shaped "inspection" hole which would allow me to cut out the fabric without having to detach it all. What do you think?

[Steve Pierce]

I would put the front seat bottom in and you can see what is going to happen. Your fuel system is very non standard. I know you bought the Stewart's STC. Is the system installed what was there already? Looks like to me there is another low point between the fuel valve and the gascolator. I think that should be a constant down hill flow from the valve to the gascolator.

[clipquito]

I passed this along to Russ. Thanks for noticing it. Have to rely on him I guess to follow the STC although I am trying to stay on top of it all. He put a fuel drain in back of the front seat on the right side. Said that was the low point.

[Steve Pierce]

Stewart's STC calls for a Steve's gascolator under the seat and on the firewall. I just got 6 of them for the three Clippers we are building. Brian and Steve probably liked that order which included one for a Luscombe as well. :D

[clipquito]

Facing my firewall outside the airplane, my gascolator is mounted on the lower right corner of the firewall. I don't have a picture sorry.

[JohnW]

... I did a fabric to fabric overlap on the OUTSIDE of the rear piece. This made a nice square corner on either side of the rear piece. Then I put a reinforcement strip over where I glued fabric to fabric on the back.

Was thinking of fixing the lack of inset piece of my fabric (the front seat ripping issue) by putting in a triangular shaped "inspection" hole which would allow me to cut out the fabric without having to detach it all. What do you think?

I'm not positive exactly what you mean (I'm trying to not "mess ya' up" with poor advice) by the first part of that, but if I understand correctly...I don't see what harm simply razoring the existing "straight run " of interior fabric within the "triangle" about an inch (maybe STAGING the cuts until you have optimum length to re-wrap around the OUTSIDE of that tube; you can ALWAYS cut more off, but you can't cut more ON. Then just add a new flat section alongside the exterior fabric to re-complete the "triangle"???. I've seen where Piper did some weird patching in this area (just like Steve's "extra seams") rather than having done with "all one long piece". [MAYBE (?) some New Hires on the Production Line made this same "mistake"?]. Remember... with a little care and extra sandpaper work, these areas will never show what lies "underneath" what you can see from the inside of the finished airplane (behind seats, in the dark, with no reason to be inspecting this area, THAT CLOSELY).

I'd say, Bottom Line: Just provide the "recessed area" in whatever reasonable manner you can and be "good with it". Just "call it a job" and be content. On the NEXT 25 restorations, you'll get it perfect. ;)

[clipquito]

Well, as it turns out, my seat does not cut into my inside fabric anywhere. Nothing even comes near the triangle that Piper "hollowed out." Go figure. It is a tight fit however, so I put some heavy fabric reinforcements on the outside of the inside fabric where the rubbing occurs. Thanks for the help.