vagabond controls

[Larry Huntley]

G'Day Folks,
The vagabond control mechanism aft of the stick has a horn that sticks up to which the aileron cables are attached. The elevator cables pass through this hole in the horn.In my PA-15 dual controls were installed. When I received the project everything was torn apart. One horn has the small holes for the cable. The other horn has one large hole for the cable. If you know or have a Vag would you please inform me which control goes on which side?
Thank You, Larry Huntley

[d.grimm]

Larry,
I'll take a picture when I am at the hangar tomorrow.
Dave

[JohnW]

Larry; the one with TWO holes goes on the right hand side. That's the one with the "removeable" stick. I've flown mine several thousand hours with the rh stick out, and only put it on the "stub" (it uses a "clevis pin" with a hairclip through it for "retention" and takes about three seconds to remove or install) when there is someone with me that is likely gonna wanna "steer some". It makes entry/exit MUCH easier (and graceful!) with that stick out (makes a good "Beat-oh", too, if somebody wants to freak out and lock up on the controls! "Go to sleep for a couple minutes, guy." :o). Piper thought of everything...

[Larry Huntley]

Thanx John,
Here is another one. Drawing #11638 shows a fitting on the handle end of the trim cable that is different from mine. The description of the handle end fitting is unreadable on my print.
Both my PA-15 and PA-17 have swaged fittings on the end of the cable end. It is the same little 80° hook fitting ,but mine was swaged on. Apparently factory. With what do you replace it?
The wire goes through the housing at the aft end just like the drawing so all is well there.[
Just finished painting the fuselage tubing ,so I am finally at the point I can start putting things back on instead of taking them off. Feels good. Now if I didn't have three other jobs I have to finish first-- - - - - -
Is the snow getting down to the point one could land a Kitfox in it without skis? Thanx again, your help is much appreciated. Larry

quote="JohnW"]Larry; the one with TWO holes goes on the right hand side. That's the one with the "removeable" stick. I've flown mine several thousand hours with the rh stick out, and only put it on the "stub" (it uses a "clevis pin" with a hairclip through it for "retention" and takes about three seconds to remove or install) when there is someone with me that is likely gonna wanna "steer some". It makes entry/exit MUCH easier (and graceful!) with that stick out (makes a good "Beat-oh", too, if somebody wants to freak out and lock up on the controls! "Go to sleep for a couple minutes, guy." :o). Piper thought of everything...[/quote]

[JohnW]

Larry;
Hmmm. I'm not clear exactly what you are asking... I have a PA-15 handle with the cables dyked off about a foot back from the trim handle itself. It looks exactly like the one on dwg 11638 (on my CD, the dwg is really pretty clear! I am ATTEMPTING an upload of that dwg here). This piece probably sat like a red-headed stepchild out behind somebody's hangar for 47 years or so without benefit of cover, and it is rusted BAD (as in "pattern only"), but I would be willing to say that it is 99:1 that this was an original. The "hook" is a piece of stainless steel rod, and drilled like the throttle linkage on most '40s and '50s car carburetor linkages (dirt simple, straight through drilled hole). The cable was passed through the aft hole (no thimble) and then a sleeve was crimped onto the "run" and the "tail" just like any other standard Nicopress fitting, then the front end was put through the hole in the handle, and cotter keyed.

These swages were "full-length", rolled type swages just like the original flight control cables were; a "one piece crimp", not a "multiple crimp" like the National Telephone Company tool makes (it would have been a "two-crimp" on this size cable swage, not a "three crimp" swage like 1/8" flt control cables would have. But like I say, these were "one-crimp" dealies using the -now- $4000+ tool). I got involved with these as fabricated replacement cables once, that "person or persons unknown" had made up... that constantly "hitched" on handle throw. What it was was the std "cable through the hole, and a sleeve" cable end is too far forward and the sleeve(s) contact the upright fuselage brace tube at that location. Apparently Piper walked the same ground as I did on that one, and came up with the "bent hook extension" to provide side clearance (Clarence). An EXCELLENT solution! Me, I would (have, did, will again as required) fabricate an exact replacement assembly with the same "hook and no thimble, swaged (NaTCo, Mark Eden crimp tool) extension piece". Works good, lasts a long time. Here's hoping my pdf loads up!

[attachment=0:10u1a3rl]11638.pdf[/attachment:10u1a3rl]


MY runway, you mean??? Oh, the snow is GONE, now. Well, it was just about hard enough two days ago that I was CONTEMPLATING committing some aviation, but I was tied up and wouldn't you know...the Monsoons started up again. Now I'm back to "losing a pack boot" walking from the house to the hangar!!! Honestly, I'm still WALKING "around the end" of the runway, rather than track it all up and have to work the footprints out with the roller! Its SOUP. This next few [possibly record hot] days, if their forecasts are even CLOSE to right (and they usually AREN'T!), should harden it up. MAYBE enough. Hafta "wait and see".

Hey, I'm still going to make the trip past you I told you about (HE balked for some good reasons, I didn't). We're "loose" for Tuesday of next week. Should I think on stopping in "on the way by"?

[JohnW]

EUREKA!!!

the text for the -5 part says (if you still can't read it) ".1695 x 2-1/8" ST STL [edit: "stainless steel"] Type 302 Min UTS [edit: "Ultimate Tensile Strength"] 125000 PSI". Tally ho!

[Larry Huntley]

[Hi John,
We will be looking for you on Tuesday. You flying or driving? Not a lot to see here , but if you have the time I would enjoy meeting you and discussing anything that flys.
I have the same CD drawing but couldn't read that part of the materials list. The hook I have on both of mine looks exactly like yours except it looks like someone drilled out the straight end to make a socket, inserted the cable and swaged it. You will have to take a look at them.
Any thoughts where to find materials for -5? If I sound like somebody who really knows what they are doing,I apologize. ;o)
About the controls, I knew the removable stick went on the right ,but this thing was disassembled to the point that the stick and stick socket had been removed from the rest of the mechanism,so I had no way of telling.

3977 Bailey Hill Which ,by the way ,is nowhere near Dundee. We are in Tyrone/ Weston. Dundee is a
Dundee, NY mailing address Larry Huntley
607 292 6318
asq@roadrunner.com




quote="JohnW"]EUREKA!!!

the text for the -5 part says (if you still can't read it) ".1695 x 2-1/8" ST STL [edit: "stainless steel"] Type 302 Min UTS [edit: "Ultimate Tensile Strength"] 125000 PSI". Tally ho![/quote]

[JohnW]

Hoo, boy! Procurement...that's what makes working with 60 year old airplanes FUN!!! Right off the top of my head, I can't tell you what chain store you could walk right into and buy a foot of 302 stainless rod. Not that you CAN'T, just its been MY experience that the first question you ALWAYS get about stuff like this is "What do you need it for?". Then its all downhill from there! Pretty much, nobody "does anything" anymore, and stores onlt stock what City People buy to fiddle around in their yards. WHAT ever happened to the Good Ole Days? What I DO like about this stuff is that its an adventure; a "miniature college course". It IS fun (but can be very frustrating).

I worked about ten minutes on the Internet (yay, Google!) but I didn't come up with too very much. This I did find...nobody I have found YET lists .1695" 302 stainless rod (but for the mighty dollar you can have ANYTHING custom made! I don't think this would be overly "practical"). But what I DID find was ONE place in Oregon that sells .302 SS rod. Their tech sheets list 3/16" rod in 1/4 Hard SS 302 that has 125000 UTS. But they require an account (they do not sell to "individuals"). This would be a pretty simple matter of finding a local machine shop or other trade business that would order some for you.

Maybe somebody "here" can jump in with some specialized knowledge in this particular field that can offer who you could dial up and get a foot of this on its way (???), or even front you with a hunk of it (but there is very few needs on RagBags for this particular round stock). Otherwise, I'd say to start darkening doorways at machine shops, steel fabricators, welding supply stores, and any other place you might think of, and pick some brains. You can maybe make some friends (and/or...enemies). Maybe Hobby Shops (altho' you have to get REAL lucky to find somebody that can answer "technical questions" like "what hardness is this wire rod?". Ah, but you never know!!!).

MAYBE a more "realistic approach" would be to first make an effort to find something you could call a "reasonable facsimile", and failing that, change the "design". At first thought, I don't see an issue with using a strip of SAE 4130 flat stock instead of a bent wire to make this attachment. A through bolt at the handle and a "hole eye" crimped inside the thimble. Piper uses "flat fittings" everywhere -aileron cables, elevator cables, et c. This is a SECONDARY flight control, and I'll bet any FAA ASI with Field Approval Authority wouldn't have much of a problem with this "alteration". You aren't "changing the operating design" of this "system", only a "straight link" in a cable attachment. Some people wouldn't hesitate to call this a "Minor Alteration" and just note it in the log. If I were you, I would DEFINITELY speak to whoever is going to sign off the 337 for restoration on this bird and look for an "easy way out".

For the aft fitting, I believe, you should be able to substitute a standard AN fitting. Consider that Cessners use a similar threaded fitting to terminate cables in their trim systems (and if I recall correctly, they have 6-40 NF-3 rolled threads). You need a source of having the "barrel crimp" made, but that shouldn't be too mind-numbing. I HAVE seem motorcycle brake cables installed at the rear of this trim system, and they make a very neat, clean installation. I believe I'd be thinking of using "standard short turnbuckle" as an alternate attach, ala "Aeronca/Citabria" (only, "inside the fuselage").

Such a simple little trim system, built up from whatever was literally lying around (remember, this airplane got Piper out of Receivership, and the prototype was built up in garages all over Lock Haven and Bradley, PA), yet SOOO MUCH todo about restoring it. (Ain't life grand?).

By car. I don't know if I can leave here in the airplane and come back the next day without encountering "soft field work" at my strip, and as of today it is still SOAKED. My Harley is "trapped" 150 feet from the road and even if I COULD keep it upright that far, it would leave permanent tracks. I shudder at HOW LONG IT TAKES to roll out the ruts. And just like everybody else's "main problem" with "going by air", you don't have the "freedom to go downtown" or "run around" if the whim strikes you (or do an Emergency Pit Stop, should you need to. I drink WAY too much coffee). I LOVE flying, but I get plenty of it "local". Most guys relish the excuse to use their airplane some, and I admit I don't need much excuse to go flying... but I "get it done" on a pretty much daily basis, MOST of the year. Being retired and futzing around on BugSmashers sorta "provides for" that opportunity. Ya gotta love it.

[Larry Huntley]

What do you think about this,John? http://www.mcmaster.com/#8984k93/=1ll5dz 25,000psi ,not 125,000psi You sure it was 125000? This is 303 instead of 302. Just poking around. Can't help but think a control rod off a carburetor might work fine. I have had one get loose and flutter,however. Hmmm, I guess your flat link sounds pretty good after all.
We will be looking for you on Tuesday. About what time are you thinking? Larry


[quote="JohnW"]Hoo, boy! Procurement...that's what makes working with 60 year old airplanes FUN!!! Right off the top of my head, I can't tell you what chain store you could walk right into and buy a foot of 302 stainless rod. Not that you CAN'T,

[JohnW]

Wait a minute! You'll be "looking for me"??? Should I ARM MYSELF before leaving home?

Ya know, upon "closer inspection" (zooming in to about 150%), it appears that the -5 part wants 145000 psi UTS, not 125000. Now that I've seen that, I have to wonder how I ever thought it read 125000? The -6 part is pretty clearly "120000". Now, we need a metallurgist to step in here. ULTIMATE tensile strength is NOT the same thing as "yield strength". Ya know, ya gotta question if item -7, .065 SS welding wire, isn't the weak point in this link.

You said you "had one get loose and flutter". What, one of these links came out? You had trim tab flutter? A good friend of mine who was a (famous/infamous) local Duster (owned a business with Pawnees, an Ag Cat, et c) and a dyed in the wool "airplane nut" had a problem with this. He lost his life to a homebuilt about ten years ago that had a "copy" of the Vagabond trim system on it, and it broke somehow in flight. It was having an ongoing "slippage problem", and he was trying to work out that squawk. The failure resulted in trim tab flutter. He was in contact with the Owner on a handheld when he was testing it, and he said the tab was fluttering, then it broke 1/2 off (but refused to depart the airplane), and then the elevator started fluttering. The tail brace wires on that side broke. The airplane went uncontrollable and the results were tragic. I've never seen flutter in my Vagabond (trim has always worked flawlessly), and I guess I never wanna.

About Tuesday...far as I know, I'm still on for Tuesday but only have a rough estimate on the "times". I'm supposed to get a telephone call tonight or tomorrow with finalization instructions, but last I knew he had Tuesday afternoon scheduled "off" from work. This is "good", because it appears the scheduling is going as planned. He was going to get "everything" laid out at the airport ready to "slap together" during the day, today. I really doubt he will get involved it in with some "local volunteer", since he consideres himself to be the Owner, but he considers the airplane to be MINE (this was his first restoration, first fabric job, he wasn't licensed and I did the Maiden Flight, et c) as much as his. I KNOW he doesn't want any "whoopsies" on the 50 coats of hand rubbed dope surfaces. I look forward to flying it again. Its a N-I-C-E One!!! I'll call you Monday evening (or tell me if another time would be more convenient). I'm GUESSING I'll cut outa here around 7:00 AM Tues, so I should be down by you sometime around 9:30 or 10:00AM. That should give us a fair amount of hangar flying time and I should be able to comfortably get to his place in the 1:00 to 2:00 PM range. I'm cell phone equipped (aren't we all?), and if there are any snags once I'm on the way, I can update you so you don't sit on your thumbs getting mad from being stood up. I don't roll that way. I'll talk to you soon, as I have his "commitment" in hand.

[Larry Huntley]

John,
You get close enough to see you in the crosshairs,I'll put the coffee on. ;o)
Interesting about the trim slippage. I was lucky. I was about thirty feet off Long Lake when the flutter began and I was with my instructor ,Herb Helms. He put it down immediately and we found the cable housing had slipped. It didn't have the double hold down like the drawing shows. It had two rather greasy"wrap arounds". Can't remember what we did ,but Herb instilled in me a fear of flutter and it never happened again. I just found a source of good solid double holddowns,so I am fixed there.
Calling Mon nite is fine.Anytime Tues is fine. See you then. Larry




Wait a minute! You'll be "looking for me"??? Should I ARM MYSELF before leaving home?

Ya know, upon "closer inspection" (zooming in to about 150%), it appears that the -5 part wants 145000 psi UTS, not 125000. Now that I've seen that, I have to wonder how I ever thought it read 125000? The -6 part is pretty clearly "120000". Now, we need a metallurgist to step in here. ULTIMATE tensile strength is NOT the same thing as "yield strength". Ya know, ya gotta question if item -7, .065 SS welding wire, isn't the weak point in this link.

You said you "had one get loose and flutter". What, one of these links came out? You had trim tab flutter? A good friend of mine who was a (famous/infamous) local Duster (owned a business with Pawnees, an Ag Cat, et c) and a dyed in the wool "airplane nut" had a problem with this. He lost his life to a homebuilt about ten years ago that had a "copy" of the Vagabond trim system on it, and it broke somehow in flight. It was having an ongoing "slippage problem", and he was trying to work out that squawk. The failure resulted in trim tab flutter. He was in contact with the Owner on a handheld when he was testing it, and he said the tab was fluttering, then it broke 1/2 off (but refused to depart the airplane), and then the elevator started fluttering. The tail brace wires on that side broke. The airplane went uncontrollable and the results were tragic. I've never seen flutter in my Vagabond (trim has always worked flawlessly), and I guess I never wanna.

About Tuesday...far as I know, I'm still on for Tuesday but only have a rough estimate on the "times". I'm supposed to get a telephone call tonight or tomorrow with finalization instructions, but last I knew he had Tuesday afternoon scheduled "off" from work. This is "good", because it appears the scheduling is going as planned. He was going to get "everything" laid out at the airport ready to "slap together" during the day, today. I really doubt he will get involved it in with some "local volunteer", since he consideres himself to be the Owner, but he considers the airplane to be MINE (this was his first restoration, first fabric job, he wasn't licensed and I did the Maiden Flight, et c) as much as his. I KNOW he doesn't want any "whoopsies" on the 50 coats of hand rubbed dope surfaces. I look forward to flying it again. Its a N-I-C-E One!!! I'll call you Monday evening (or tell me if another time would be more convenient). I'm GUESSING I'll cut outa here around 7:00 AM Tues, so I should be down by you sometime around 9:30 or 10:00AM. That should give us a fair amount of hangar flying time and I should be able to comfortably get to his place in the 1:00 to 2:00 PM range. I'm cell phone equipped (aren't we all?), and if there are any snags once I'm on the way, I can update you so you don't sit on your thumbs getting mad from being stood up. I don't roll that way. I'll talk to you soon, as I have his "commitment" in hand.

[Larry Huntley]

John,
I am assuming you made it through the drifts to the house by now.
Remember looking at the trim mechanism on the Vag? They called for 302 SS welding wire .063 for inside the sheath and .125 ? for the 80°hook at the front end. I found both sizes of 302 music wire in McMaster-Carr. Says it is even lubricated to make forming easier.
Hang the A&P hat on the hook for a moment and don the Engineer hat. Are we talking the same materials here?
Hope you had a successful trip to Bradford. Hope you go this way more often. Larry Huntley

[JohnW]

Yepper, home again. Everything went 100% "as planned".

The -5 hook is called out as one hundred sixty nine and a half thousands, not .125". Methinks the best you are going to find as a "stock size" is going to be 3/16 -.1875". I don't have the foggiest idea where Piper came up with .1695", but it probably retailed out at fifty cents a thousand and fitted the Engineering bill, so they went with it. See, I'm so "anal" about this stuff, I even feel that the Piper drawing INCORRECTLY calls out an eighty degree bend, when in fact it is a ONE HUNDRED degree bend (I got that "pickyness" from my Drafting Teacher in Ninth Grade...but I SEE the reasoning! It "makes" an bend that winds up ten degrees SHORT of perpendicular...but to DO that -when manufacturing it- you have to bend ten degrees PAST perpendicular. Sure, EVERYBODY "knows what they mean". But it still isn't "technically correct" except THAT WAS THE WAY THEY MARKED IT.... do you SEE what we're "dealing with", here?).

My "Engineering Hat" is, at best, only "quasi-official" (somewhat in the "Legend of My Own Mind" department), and I'm not willing to defend it in the event of something litigious. I have no degree specializing in metallurgy (but a couple guys here DO, if my understanding is correct) and I wouldn't DARE to expose myself to criticism for saying something rudimentally WRONG in this venue (besides...some Joker put SuperGlue inside the headband of my A&P/IA hat). I would have to say that about whether "welding wire" is the same hardness/malleability/whatever as what I would think is more likely "music wire"...is that it is "doubtful". See... if you can get McMasters to share a tech file with you (and this might be as easy as fishing around on their website for a couple minutes), I might be willing to "pass an IA judgment" as to whether this stuff was "as good or better". Even then, I might avail myself of the knowlege belonging to peoples more familiar with this stuff. "Seek guidance", so to speak.

Is it "useable"? Well... PROBABLY it would never crash the airplane. Would I say "go ahead", in writing, on the Internet? No, I don' think so. :lol: