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Steve Pierce
06-03-2009, 07:57 AM
Talked to Eddie Trimmer about his left hand door modification the other evening. Having installed the Day & Night STC'd left door I know it is a lot of work. You have to replace the vertical tube from the left front wing attach fitting to the left front gear attach fitting with a thicker tube. Eddie's does not. You do have to add several small tubes. Also the door starts 5 1/4" forward of the seat tube making a larger opening as opposed to the D&N which starts at the seat tube. Eddie's door is the same size as a Maule. The door is made out of .035" wall x 5/8" square tubing which is what I build replacement stock Piper doors out of. You use three door channels from Univair 819-22-02, 819-22-01, 819-22-05D costing about $100 for all three. You have to modify the fuel system per a separate STC which gives you a left, right and both selection and runs both the right front and rear fuel lines under the seat. It also uses a Maule fuel valve which is around $125. Eddie says it takes between 40-60 hrs. to do the modification on an uncovered fuselage. The fuel system STC is $350 and the left door STC is $250. http://trimmeraviation.com/ Looks like I might get the opportunity to install one and I will report back with hints and pictures.

Stephen
06-03-2009, 08:35 AM
I have the Day and Night left door, which I like and I modified my right door to Eddie's, so that I could use gas struts to hold them open. Does Eddies left door use gas struts? The details and plans Eddie sends are very extensive. His mods are also quite sound, well constructed, maybe even over strong. His fuel mod is the only way to go.

Steve Pierce
06-03-2009, 08:37 AM
Yes, he uses a gas strut available at NAPA.

chrisg
06-03-2009, 11:49 AM
I bought the STC (registered to my certified PA-22) and used it as a guide for the right and left door mods on my experimental project. It's a really great set of plans and photos....very thorough. I really liked the fact that you don't have to replace the vertical tube from the left front wing attach fitting to the left front gear attach fitting with a thicker tube...that sounded like a lot of work.

Stephen
06-03-2009, 01:42 PM
I like the way the STC is worded. He lists the number for the gas strut, then says "or equivalent". That may mean any gas strut that holds the door open.

rmalone
06-06-2009, 06:59 AM
Equivalent is a good word!

avcan
06-10-2009, 03:55 AM
Hi,
I am currently nearing the end of a lengthy (6 month) modification process to my Pacer, using some of Eddies STC's.
I am completing the following mods concurrently:
LH and RH seaplane doors
Fuel system upgrade
0360 engine installation

All of Eddies STC's and info supplied is first class, with a great set of drawings and photos, which really help the whole process.
Within a month, I'll be getting close I'd say.

A few piccies attached of progress so far ...


[attachment=2:3jjvzzev]IMGP1422.JPG[/attachment:3jjvzzev]
[attachment=1:3jjvzzev]IMGP1463.JPG[/attachment:3jjvzzev]
[attachment=0:3jjvzzev]IMGP1478.JPG[/attachment:3jjvzzev]

Steve Pierce
06-10-2009, 06:42 AM
Great pictures. Thanks.

Stephen
06-10-2009, 10:56 AM
That will be a nice Pacer!

Wheelie Wayne
06-11-2009, 05:01 PM
While you are working on it, you might want to consider Eddie's gear mod that adds a brace between the streamline tube and the round tubing on the gear. The increases the strength of the gear by a significant factor. Most gear failures in a ground loop are from the streamline gear failing. This is just a little extra insurance in case it does get away from you.

Larry Huntley
06-11-2009, 08:26 PM
Yes, he uses a gas strut available at NAPA.
Steve,
I need a strut only. Do you have the NAPA # or know which (car?) it fits? Thanx, Larry

Steve Pierce
06-11-2009, 09:23 PM
I talked to eddie about the STC but I haven't installed one yet. I don't know what any of the part numbers are.

avcan
06-12-2009, 04:06 AM
NAPA p/n is BK-819-5579 or "equivalent".
Being in New Zealand, I went for an equivalent, using specs from the NAPA unit (extension 20” compression 12” stroke 8” force 40)

avcan
06-12-2009, 04:11 AM
Re Eddies gear mod, I am planning on doing this at a later point, when my finances have recovered ;) . Have many out there done this mod, and have any comments? ie. Does is increase angle of attack significantly? Cost to complete?

Todd
06-14-2009, 08:14 PM
On my 22/20 ground-up rebuild, I'm doing Trimmer's left & right doors, the fuel system mod, Steve's Aircraft skylight, plus PA-18 tailfeathers, partial metal belly, Ron Sullivan square wing tips, 2 piece carbon fiber nose bowl, Sutton exhaust, Kydex plastic interior panels and Stewart system fabric & paint. We also slimmed up the fuselage stringers, straightened out the dorsal spine and modified the rear windows a bit to work with the paint job. It's still a work in progress, but has been fun!

I've got another fuselage with the D&N left door and it's lower front geometry makes ingress and egress more of a pain. I like the Trimmer doors, though the three-pin latch mechanism is a bit tedious to work the bugs out of.[attachment=2:1viq9nr8]rt_ (Medium).jpg[/attachment:1viq9nr8][attachment=1:1viq9nr8]left (Medium).jpg[/attachment:1viq9nr8][attachment=0:1viq9nr8]side (Medium).jpg[/attachment:1viq9nr8]

avcan
06-15-2009, 02:47 AM
Great pics Todd. Looks like you're making a nice job!

Bultaco Jim
06-15-2009, 11:19 AM
Beautiful !!

rmalone
06-15-2009, 02:56 PM
Nice work!

Stephen
06-15-2009, 07:59 PM
This is going to be a great plane!!!keep it light....

Steve Pierce
07-04-2009, 10:36 AM
Got the STC from Eddie yesterday. Great drawings and pictures. We will start on this modification next week and I will post pictures and commentary of the progress.

Stephen
07-04-2009, 10:45 AM
Steve, I'll be interested in your opinion's on this mod. It is an improvemnet over Day and Night's left door, with it's bigger opening and it's strong!

jay heil
07-05-2009, 11:46 AM
Im just curious here I have seen exact copy of the right door installed on the left side and there was one in the SWPC news a few years back is there some sort of mod out there for that ?
I need t figure out what to do on my pacer it has a weird left door it might be kind of nice but its so much differant it looks strange

Steve Pierce
07-05-2009, 12:00 PM
If you install a door on the left as on the right there is not much structural integrity left. You are relying on the top and lower longerons which are 4' or so apart to carry everything. I have seen it done this way but I wouldn't trust it, especially in an accident. I think the engine and panel would be in your lap.

Stephen
07-05-2009, 03:53 PM
If you install a door on the left as on the right there is not much structural integrity left. You are relying on the top and lower longerons which are 4' or so apart to carry everything. I have seen it done this way but I wouldn't trust it, especially in an accident. I think the engine and panel would be in your lap.

When I installed my "Day and Night" Left door, I was not comfortable with the structure, so I closed off my left rear door, to reinforce the structure. Not sure that it deals with Steve's point, as I'm not sure how Eddie does the structure on his left side door mod. Day and Night, beefed up the verticle tubing and added an angle tube for strength, but it is more difficult to get out of the cockpit.

Lownslow
07-05-2009, 09:52 PM
Some great pictures and some neat ideas. No problem staying cool in this one on a Summer day.

Lou S.

Steve Pierce
07-01-2013, 06:20 AM
Todd and Avcan, Anyway you can email me the pictures you had on this modification so I can put them back in the posts. Unfortunately we lost them when we upgraded the software. steve@shortwingpipers.org

Stephen
07-01-2013, 09:38 PM
If you install a door on the left as on the right there is not much structural integrity left. You are relying on the top and lower longerons which are 4' or so apart to carry everything. I have seen it done this way but I wouldn't trust it, especially in an accident. I think the engine and panel would be in your lap.

Most of the load that our planes are approved which is up to 3.8g's times GW, or about 8000 lbs. is supported in the wing structure, struts and fuselage carry through structure. While I did believe that there was structural integrity lost installing a left front door, which I initially compensated for by removing the rear door and putting more support in. I no longer think so. Putting in a left front door means that the left front integrity is now the same as the right, assuming you followed the STC. The main carry through loads from the wings will be at the bottom strut attachment creating a compression load on the door frame. This load must be adaquately handled equally on both sides. I have sense reinstalled my left rear door, since the fuselage framing aft of the wing carry through structure has less to do with wing loads and more to do with torsion loads and tail support.

Steve's point about intergrity during a crash is another topic, which may be his main issue. Anytime you remove diagonal support the unpredictable loads in a crash can be bad.

Curly
07-01-2013, 11:09 PM
Steve - I am right in the middle of putting a L/H door on the Colt (experimental).

I am using the same bracing as Eddy uses but I have seen a door frame that also included a 3/4" tube across the top of the door instead of the original window channel. The more I look at it the more inclined I am to also replace the front door frame tubes with 7/8" as per the Day and Night drawings (only 'cause I have 3 lengths of the stuff in the workshop and no 1") because after you cut all the tinware off, it looks pretty crappy and rusted. I have visited the local library to see if I could find a book on tubular structure design to see if I can work out the loads etc. but as you have personal experience of damaged tube frames, I would appreciate some advice. If you were not constrained by STC's what would you do?

DEW
07-02-2013, 12:13 AM
I used the Eddy Trimmer left door mod and his pa18 gear mod.

Steve Pierce
07-02-2013, 06:37 AM
Stephen, My reference was to the fact that people duplicate the right door opening on the left side without adding the tube from the instrument panel to the seat tube or the dogleg structure that Eddie adds to the structure. I Maule, Taylorcraft and most every tube and fabric side by side with two fronts doors have this type of structure.

John, I don't see a reason to add anything more to the Day & Night or Trimmer structure. The wing usually rips out of the fuselage and my main concern with the structural integrity is the door opening failing and putting everything in front of the pilot into his lap. Saw this happen with a Kitfox which lacks the above described structure.

Stephen
07-02-2013, 10:29 AM
Stephen, My reference was to the fact that people duplicate the right door opening on the left side without adding the tube from the instrument panel to the seat tube or the dogleg structure that Eddie adds to the structure. I Maule, Taylorcraft and most every tube and fabric side by side with two fronts doors have this type of structure.

John, I don't see a reason to add anything more to the Day & Night or Trimmer structure. The wing usually rips out of the fuselage and my main concern with the structural integrity is the door opening failing and putting everything in front of the pilot into his lap. Saw this happen with a Kitfox which lacks the above described structure.

Yup, I agree with both statements.

longpacer
07-02-2013, 01:27 PM
Here is another approach to beefing up the door structure to keep the front fuselage from folding up in a crash. The attached drawing shows the Bearhawk structure which creates a truss section under the door and uses it to brace the forward end of the fuselage.

I like the Trimmer doors from a structural perspective, but they require that you give up some ease of entry. The Day and Night door mod, in my opinion, requires an acrobat to get in. I see it as an emergency exit rather than a normal way of getting into the plane. For an experimental, the Bearhawk approach might be a way of adding structural integrity without giving up much access.

Bob

KSG
07-02-2013, 04:51 PM
The truss at the bottom of the door is how I am doing my exp stretched project. Another tube from the top of the firewall down to the bottom of the door. Larger tube thicker wall from wing down. Load paths appear good. May truss the lower of the rear door also.

Steve Pierce
07-03-2013, 05:40 AM
longpacer, Looks like a good alternative. Thanks for posting the drawing.

57pacerBW
07-23-2017, 11:51 AM
My pa22/20 that I bought had trimmer fuel system done but they didn't do the door. How hard would be put in the door now.

JPerkins
07-23-2017, 02:38 PM
Not hard at all. Trickiest part is replacing the tube that goes from the front gear attach up to the front spar attach. Supposedly it can be done with just peeling the fabric back and reusing it.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

57pacerBW
07-23-2017, 09:34 PM
[QUOTE=JPerkins;102580]Not hard at all. Trickiest part is replacing the tube that goes from the front gear attach up to the front spar attach. Supposedly it can be done with just peeling the fabric back and reusing it.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk[/QUOTE I think I might haft look into this winter project .

JPerkins
07-23-2017, 11:16 PM
Like you need more convincing, call Eddie and ask about the install. I'm sure he'd be happy to explain it to you over the phone.

Steve Pierce
07-31-2017, 06:32 AM
Not something I would want to do on a covered airplane. The door is alright but not as easy to get into and not worth the time and money in my opinion. Just something to think about.

wyandot jim
07-31-2017, 05:16 PM
Not something I would want to do on a covered airplane. The door is alright but not as easy to get into and not worth the time and money in my opinion. Just something to think about.

Steve makes a very good point. This 74 year old FAT guy can get in it no problem:-) Well maybe a little. I did mine with the fabric on but you have to remove some to do it correctly. The fabric really isn't the problem as much as welding in the new tube that is located at the instrument panel. I had to remove the panel. Not a big deal for me since I rewired and built a new panel. BUT THAT tube sucks. When all is said and done flying with the door open is priceless.:-)