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View Full Version : Heel to Toe brakes



Tadpole
06-16-2009, 02:39 PM
So it seems to me that alot of planes that originally were heel brakes have been converted over to toe brakes. Now, I'm a new guy, but I kind of liked the heel brakes in the Super Cub I did my TW training in.

I know this could probably go into the conversations like low vs. high wing and nose vs. tail dragger....but is there a reason it seems so many planes have been converted to toe brakes?

rmalone
06-16-2009, 05:08 PM
Now wait just a minute..........nose vs taildragger?

Gilbert Pierce
06-16-2009, 09:38 PM
Think about steering your airplane with the rudder pedals and also trying to differentially brake with your heels while you pushing the rudder pedal with the ball of your foot. It is like herding cats even after you get use to it. I tried it several times and didn't like it.

Kinda like why folks take the nose wheel off and put a tailwheel on but nobody goes the other way. :lol:

Tadpole
06-16-2009, 10:31 PM
I've not flown a taildragger with toe brakes in it. My friend says he doesn't like toe brakes on taildraggers, something to do with not being able to get on the brakes as quickly if needed since he needs to slide his feet up to hit the brakes. I've only flown toe brakes in 172s and heel brakes in a Super Cub and a Tcart.

Steve Pierce
06-17-2009, 06:30 AM
I had to lift my heels off the floor to use the brakes on my Clipper. That is good. Short Wings are not an airplane you need brakes to keep straight. They have plenty of rudder and in my opinion if you have to use brakes to keep it straight you need to go around. I think maybe one time in a really, really, really bad crosswind I had to use a little brake in a Short Wing. I also much prefer the brake pedals in a Clipper or stock Pacer over the Cessna style pedals in a Univair or Williams brake conversion. Now a Super Cub is whole different story. :D

av8ing
06-17-2009, 08:32 AM
Hey this is a family forum! Please refrain from using language such as Cessn@ and 172! I had to cover my grandkids eyes! :lol:

d.grimm
06-17-2009, 11:14 AM
In training I repeat on short final "feet off the brakes". Toe brake equipped taildraggers can get you in big trouble real quick
if you land with brakes on. I prefer heel brakes for that reason. Whatever is installed is what I'll work with, I would never consider changing, too much work.
Dave

Clipper Driver
06-18-2009, 08:28 PM
All good advice. I've flown tail draggers with heel brakes and toe brakes - mostly my Corben Baby Ace with heel brakes, and Clipper with toe brakes. The main thing I found with heel brakes is to take some extra time to adjust your seating position (if possible - tall folks maybe can't) so your feet can reach them when (and only when) needed. The Baby Ace can be a little tricky on cross-wind wheel landings because it runs out of rudder before it runs out of elevator, and sometimes needs a bit of brake in addition to rudder before the tail comes down. Pushing on both at the same time with just the right amount of pressure/movement requires a bit of dexterity. Other than that, it's easier to keep pointed straight than the Clipper. In the Clipper, you mostly have to be sure you don't inadvertently apply brakes. Like Steve said, the Shortwings have big rudders, and that's all the control you should need except in extreme circumstances. I try to stay away from extreme circumstances. I've never used brakes to stay straight on takeoff, and can't remember using them intentionally on landing either.

Unintentional use is something else. I've had one runway "excursion" with the Baby Ace and one with the Clipper during crosswind landings. In both cases, I had inadvertently applied brake on one side while using the rudder to stay on centerline near the end of the landing roll. Fortunately, I had slowed down a lot in both cases and there wasn't anything in my path, so the only damage was to pride. To word what Dave said another way - it's almost more important to know how and when not to use brakes. Although necessary, they can get you in trouble real quick.

Tadpole
06-18-2009, 11:46 PM
Good points, thanks. So did the shortwings start off with heel brakes and slowly folks have been putting toe brakes in them, or did they just come that way? My friend did his TW training in a Tcart, then some in a Citabria, now he owns a 180. He has toe brakes but he says he likes heel brakes better. I think he's concerned of inadvertant use by his foot slipping up and grabbing the brake.

Good point about the Shortwings have plenty of rudder, that's good to know.

mjlossner
06-19-2009, 07:59 AM
Just had to add my two cents here, in an earlier time (before 3 kids, collage and an exwife) I owned a J-3 cub with heal brakes, a Cessna 120 with toe brakes and a 53 Tri-Pacer with lousy brakes! N0 problems getting out of one airplane and getting into the other. I just kinda run what I brung ! Didn't much think about it, just got in and flew.........

Steve Pierce
06-25-2009, 08:34 PM
So did the shortwings start off with heel brakes and slowly folks have been putting toe brakes in them, or did they just come that way?

All the Short Wings I know of had toe brakes from the factory except the hand brake in the Tri-Pacer.

Tadpole
06-25-2009, 11:32 PM
So did the shortwings start off with heel brakes and slowly folks have been putting toe brakes in them, or did they just come that way?

All the Short Wings I know of had toe brakes from the factory except the hand brake in the Tri-Pacer.

Ah cool, I didn't know that.

dbudd
02-05-2011, 01:59 PM
has anybody when they converted a 22 to a 20 put in heal brakes.

Throttle Pusher
02-05-2011, 04:09 PM
I like this thread
My last airplane had heel brakes and I really liked them alot.
I've been looking to replace the johnson bar with toe brakes but now Im thinking I would rather have the heel brakes.
This would also address the issue with the lost leg room when going to the toe brakes

would this be a field approval or is there a stc out there?

redbarron55
02-06-2011, 09:44 AM
Perhaps I have been using heel brakes wrong all these years. I always thought that it was awfully handy to just pick up the heel to put pressure on the toe brakes, instead of having to (sometimes ) let off of the rudder to pick up the brake.
Personally I lke the toe brakes where when I am running out of rudder I have the brakes just a toe away.
Some toe brakes are positioned better (for me) than others, but I wouldn't trade any for my toe brakes.
The only time I wished that my Pacer had heel brakes was whne an FAA inspector ground-looped mine and my main concern was that they would over brake too and put the plane on its back.

Curly
02-06-2011, 05:47 PM
"FAA inspector ground-looped mine and my main concern was that they would over brake too and put the plane on its back"
Exactly the same senario that put Patsy on her back! :frown:

Throttle Pusher
02-06-2011, 08:09 PM
I wonder how easy it would be to get a field approval for the heel brakes on a 52 PA-22.
As I under stand it the 1952 was basicaly the same airframe as the Pacer. I wonder if I have the brackets for them on the frame.
I will have to take a look.

Does any one have a picture of a pacer heel brake set up?
Would love to see what Im looking for.

redbarron55
02-07-2011, 08:12 PM
As far as I know there are no Tri or Pacers with heel brakes. These were pretty old school even in 1950.

Throttle Pusher
02-07-2011, 08:38 PM
I was just thinking that when they went from T/D to nose pusher there could have been some bleed over on the frame effectivity. Brackets on the early 22's that were on the 20's.

pistoncan
02-07-2011, 09:45 PM
has anybody when they converted a 22 to a 20 put in heal brakes.

I am doing a tandem wagabond and I considered mounting scott heel brakes for the rear seat with a cable to the front for the front passenger. My difficulty is finding a pair of reasonably priced scott units, the toe brakes are much cheaper.

mrdkoch
02-07-2011, 11:22 PM
I just restored a PA12 and put in new Dakota Cub brakes. I have no use for the old units and would be willing to sell them at a reasonable price if I can find them in the hangar. Let me know if you are interested.

Grantmac
02-08-2011, 12:53 PM
I was just thinking that when they went from T/D to nose pusher there could have been some bleed over on the frame effectivity. Brackets on the early 22's that were on the 20's.

Even the Vags and Clippers had toe brakes, I don't think any shortwings had heel brakes.

How easy toe brakes are to deal with is a direct consequence of how they are set-up. I like to have to reach for the brakes, so my current set-up has the pedals tilted a little too far towards me. I'm forced to land with my feet on only the bottom of the pedals, then slide up to get on the brakes.
Fortunately there are still a few threads of adjustment left so I can get them set a bit closer to my preference.

-Grant

Abypacer
07-08-2018, 01:46 PM
Piper Part No. 11562 is the Piper channel that the Brake cycinder attaches to. I am trying to put the channel in place before I paint my Vagabond frame and this is the last part I have not been able to find or make.

1. Does anyone have an old fuselage they don't mind cutting them off?
2. Does anyone now a supplier of this channel?
3. Any other thoughts other than using angle iron?

Jeff

dbudd
07-08-2018, 02:39 PM
I had a Bellanca Cruisemaster once like that. When I went to get it I poured the coals to it the tail came up but I couldn’t get much speed to take off, didn’t take me long to figure it out. First fuel stop I took the courtesy car to town an bought some moccasins so I could feel the peddles. That got me home to fix it. But the way they were set up I still wore soft shoes when I flew it

dbudd
07-08-2018, 02:42 PM
Even the Vags and Clippers had toe brakes, I don't think any shortwings had heel brakes.

How easy toe brakes are to deal with is a direct consequence of how they are set-up. I like to have to reach for the brakes, so my current set-up has the pedals tilted a little too far towards me. I'm forced to land with my feet on only the bottom of the pedals, then slide up to get on the brakes.
Fortunately there are still a few threads of adjustment left so I can get them set a bit closer to my preference.

-Grant
i was responding to this quote and hit the wrong button. Fat fingers

Steve Pierce
07-08-2018, 09:24 PM
Piper Part No. 11562 is the Piper channel that the Brake cycinder attaches to. I am trying to put the channel in place before I paint my Vagabond frame and this is the last part I have not been able to find or make.

1. Does anyone have an old fuselage they don't mind cutting them off?
2. Does anyone now a supplier of this channel?
3. Any other thoughts other than using angle iron?

Jeff
Jeff, I am dealing with the same thing on a Clipper. Started fabricating the parts this evening until dinner was ready. Will update this thread on the progress.
http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/showthread.php?12374-Removing-Williams-Toe-Brakes-From-A-Clipper