View Full Version : Wing Inspection Plate
mongoose09
11-21-2009, 04:43 PM
Hey guys, I had an underwing inpection cover blow off my Tri-Pacer today. Does anyone know a good source to get these and maybe even a part number?
Thanks,
Kevin
Steve Pierce
11-21-2009, 05:50 PM
These are the bast in my opinion. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/c ... covers.php (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/de-nonslipcovers.php)
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/thumbnails/de-800-000.jpg
Steve Pierce
11-21-2009, 05:54 PM
Here is a thread on a permanent fix for the drumming fabric which causes the inspection plates to leave the aircraft. https://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/showthread.php?5362-That-Pesky-Fabric-Drumming-Wing-Root (http://www.shortwingpipers.org/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1141)
https://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/showthread.php?5362-That-Pesky-Fabric-Drumming-Wing-Root
Stephen
11-21-2009, 06:30 PM
I've also gone to the resessed type inspection cover....after scattering a few of the original type covers around the Western US. They are not as much fun removing.
mongoose09
11-22-2009, 06:11 PM
Thanks guys, I just ordered some.
Kevin
smcnutt
11-23-2009, 10:09 AM
Good timing on this post. I've just had another inspection plate blow off just this weekend. I think that's my 3rd or so and I don't have that many hours in the plane. The reinforcement ring has a spot torn towards the back and so we turned the clips when we put the last one on so it didn't line up with the tear. However, it still blew off and since their no new tear, I would guess it rotated on it's own and then blew off.
Steve since you have a post about a "permanent" fix does that mean the Spruce P/N you pointed to doesn't take care of the problem?
Steve Pierce
11-23-2009, 10:16 AM
They work but if the grommet is broken and the fabric is really drumming in that area it could leave again. My fix was really for the drumming fabric. You can cut an aluminum ispection grommet and slit one end of it and screw it into the hole for a good solid reinforcement. You can also install two #4 PK screws through the inspection plate, reinforcement ring and into the spring steel tabs that hold the inspection plate in place however the recessed plates usually work without doing this.
Andrew K
11-23-2009, 05:59 PM
I switched to the recessed plates and would still lose them (although not as often) until one day I was crawling all over a brand new Husky and saw that their plates are screwed down like Steve described. Haven't lost one since! :D
Stephen
11-23-2009, 10:48 PM
Try a few less inverted maneuverus.
nicka
09-08-2010, 06:48 PM
If the aircraft was a brand new rebuild the mech that built it may not have put a bunch of inspection plates in the fabric because it was all new at the time. What can't your current IA see that he is worried about? Can't he just install an inspection plate if he really needs too? I don't blame him for not putting inspection panels all over the place in brand new fabric on a new rebuild job. The rebuild is only a few years old. How much time is on it since rebuild? Can you not verify if the pulleys cables etc have not been lubed? No two IA's have the same opinion about everything that is neccessary, we live in a world of interpretation. Is there anything on the aircraft that is unsafe/unairworthy. I do not see how thee FAA will help, or how the FAA has figured out that the previous inspections were fraudelent. Did they look at the airplane? The SWPC CD has a wing drawing w/ panel location. Also the Alaska Airlines crash resulted from using the wrong grease, not lack of grease, and one inspector wrote up the jack screw and several other inspectors w/ managements help "measured the part until it was "good". You might see what you can do before you get the FAA involved in another IA's career, unless he has done something that is really unsafe.
redacted to protect the innocent
Steve Pierce
09-08-2010, 08:40 PM
Looks like to me that you are missing one inspection plate at the aileron bellcrank on one wing. The Tri-Pacer wing cover drawing only shows a few inspection plates for access to the aileron bell cranks, flap bell cranks and pitot tube. Fuselage consists of the inspection plates you have at the jackscrew, the elevator bell crank and one under the elevator bell crank. The Short Wing Piper Club has the drawing CD which has the covering drawings giving the dimensions as to where Piper put the inspection and access cover grommets. Not easy information for the average A&P to find for sure.
Steve Pierce
09-08-2010, 08:45 PM
Went back and looked at your pictures again and it looks like from the pictures provided that the only one you are missing is the one at the right aileron bell crank. I wonder how they installed the cable when the assembled it?
Gilbert Pierce
09-08-2010, 09:30 PM
You need the Piper Drawing CD. The wing drawings detail the location of where the factory installed the inspection covers. It looks like from a quick look at the drawing you should have 6 on the left wing and 5 on the right wing. The difference is because the aileron cross over cable turnbuckles are on the left wing.
Attached is the covered wing drawing .
If I were doing the inspection on your aircraft and it was missing an inspection access hole and cover I would cut the hole, install the grommet and cover. I would charge you for the approximately 10 minutes it took to do it plus a few bucks for the grommet and cover. Then I would get on with the inspection.
redacted to protect the innocent
Terry E
09-09-2010, 12:18 AM
I hesatate to chime in here but these guys are right, your IA just needs to get the drawing from SWPC and glue on rings as nessary then cutout the fabric. when done install a new cover. no big deal.
Terry
Terry E
09-09-2010, 12:22 AM
P.S. If he is working on your plane he is required by FARs to have the proper docs (ie maint manuals etc) to do this work and sometimes the drawings if there is a question like this.
nicka
09-09-2010, 12:42 AM
Bob, I do not know who built your airplane but it is not uncommon to leave inspection holes off of a new fabric job, in an effort to keep the fabric nice or not lose inspection covers, whatever. As the aircraft ages or needs repairs a mechanic can add inspection holes. It is really simple. There is not a whole lot in the way of pulleys or bellcranks in the wings, and looking at your pics I think they should be accessible. It was mentioned previously that it looks like you are only missing one cover. Does your current IA know what he is doing, or is he just making the other IA look bad? I don't know, don't care. But I am an AP/IA and the fact that you are running to the FAA is of concern. You stated that the FAA thinks these are fraudulent inspections, Did the FAA inspector know how many inpection covers were originally there when the aircraft was type certificated? I doubt it. I also don't see anything in the logbook entry that could not be accessed in the photos you sent. What on your airplane that is unairworthy that your current IA found that the others did not. Also, no offense but did you have a pre-buy inspection on the aircraft and accept it as is? You have a nice looking airplane that is probably been maintained well, I don't think you have a whole lot to worry about as a result of the past annuals, I don't think anyone ***!!$ UP!
Lownslow
09-09-2010, 12:56 AM
I would bet the person signing this log likely signs off every annual in the same fashion, however means they determine their inspection and actions sufficient. If I were advising this person of how to properly sign off an annual, it would not look this way. Some obvious issues are evident with this person's knowledge and experience with fabric covered aircraft. You can fret over the past and consider tarring and feathering, or whatever you choose to do to this person, or you can look forward, make some new friends here, and get your bird inspected in the manner to meet your expectations and satisfaction.
Hey, life is too short... get over it. If you go through life and this is the worst deal you have gotten, consider yourself fortunate. You have shared and pointed out to others how important it is to adhere to specifications and procedures. Sometimes we as owners / operators have to have both eyes open (foreward and back) to look out for ourselves. Sometimes we combine our knowledge from life's lesson's and trudge foreward. I think you will find friends here that can help.
Best of luck,
Lou S.
Steve Pierce
09-09-2010, 05:52 AM
It looks like picture #4 shows an inspection ring by the pitot tube. It is there so the lines can be accessed. Like I said before it looks like the only one you are missing is at the aileron pulleys as the cables exit the wing. Simply glue in the plastic ring, let it dry, cut the hole and install an inspection plate. The reason this forum was set up was to help share knowledge and data on these airplanes.
Gilbert Pierce
09-09-2010, 08:09 AM
Bob,
The round circles with the dashed lines are the inspection covers. The lines are dashed because you are looking at the top of the wing and the inspection covers are on the bottom. Also the part numbers for covers have and L or an R after the number. That designates whether they are on the left wing or the right. The drawing CD is available from the Short Wing Piper Club Store for a nominal fee. There are most of the Short Wing drawings on the CD. Your mechanic really needs the data on these drawings to maintain a Short Wing.
JohnW
09-09-2010, 08:41 AM
Bob; I understand your excitement. But. I side with "these guys". With a "qualification", Piper did only put a couple inspection grommets (hole rings) on the original airplane. Basically, they put inspection holes ("ports, openings", whatever you want to call them) only where THEY needed them. In most cases, they are "holes" with round cover plates. Sometimes they chose square, rectangular, or odd-shaped openings. Yeah, all but the one appear to be there on your airplane, as original. Now, again, the only reason Piper put in the holes that the DID were to aid in the production line assembly. They put in openings where it assisted the assembly personnel regarding putting the airplane together the first time.
Now, these planes were built when the covering of choice was primarily Grade A cotton (with Irish Linen the "premier" choice). The average life expectancy of these organic materials was at the high end...ten years. Factoring in how many airplanes were "kept" outside in the elements, the AVERAGE life expectancy was actually more like FIVE years. Furthermore, it was not unusual to have to recover an airplane (in the worst climatic conditions) every TWO years (ouch!). Doing "major inspections" of the innards every few years when the fabric was replaced was, by State-of-the-Art standards, accomplished without inspection "ports" everywhere wear -or critical damage- was expected to be an issue. Consequently, there were few openings supplied. It was also the "State-of-the-Art" that if a hard to access pulley was suspected to need replacement, the "field mechanic" would install one! Steve is absolutely correct in his assessment of the dollar cost for installing an inspection "hole" and then cover it. In today's "atmosphere", we have dacron covering systems that have extended the life expectancy of the covering WAY PAST (when hangared) the "reasonable" period of time you would expect structure to be considered okay without close inspection. But this doesn't change the "as good or better" requirements when it comes to inspection holes. MOST "modern" recover(ists) will install an inspection grommet ANYWHERE there may be a point of [normal] interest, and wings are where you will see MOST of them. For example, when you walk under the wing od most Piper rag airplanes, you will see a PAIR (one aft of the front spar, one fwd or the rear space) in regular intervals across the span of the wing. This is because there are drag and anti-drag wires built into the wing, "X-ing" there way out to provide rigidity and structural integrity to the platform. Each of these drag/anti-drag wires are attached at mild steel FITTINGS, which -if they WERE to crack- could be a very bad thing. When these airplanes were recovered once or twice each decade, these fittings could be closely inspected when the old cover was removed. NOW, "we" usually install the "grommets" for inspection rings there when we first do the new cover job. NOTHING REQUIRES US TO DO THIS! Okay, it's a "good thing" to do it...but since MOST IAs realize that for the first few years the likely hood of these fittings being cracked is low, you will "regularly" see airplanes that HAVE these grommets THAT HAVE NOT BEEN CUT OUT in ten years since the aircraft was recovered. [Okay, I'm sensing this is getting a bit "long", but I'm plugging on anyway.]
SOME of us put inspection hole grommets on the belly, where the elevator pulleys are located at the aft edge of the cabin. Most will NEVER be "opened", unless and until these pulleys might require REPLACEMENT. This is because with the rear baggage wall removed (a small task) these pulleys can be thoroughly inspected and serviced, BUT not easily "replaced" if this is found necessary. The "extra" holes on the wing that you often see installed are in that same "category"..."there for convenience, down the road". Piper never foresaw extremely long periods between accessing the inside of the wings since they would be "uncovered" with an acceptable "regularity". But the thing here IS...if the A&P with Inspection Authorization feels "it is time" to look inside somewhere OTHER THAN where the Manufacturer felt was necessary, he 1) glued on an inspection grommet 2)cut out the hole and did his thing inside and 3) slapped a cover on the grommet. Case closed. This was "how it has always been done.
Now, the "compleat mechanic-inspector" knows that a simple glued-on inspection ring grommet will eventually peel off over the years, and look scabby. So the aesthetically conscious minded person adds a round dacron "patch" over the grommet to secure it forever, AND then he finished the repaint over the patch with the intent that it matches the decorative finish of the airplane to the best of his ability. This is a "beyotch", this "matching process". So MOST intelligent recoverers will make these grommet installations BEFORE the original finish is completed, precluding the necessity later to "add them". It's a SHAME that some stupid or lazy (or money-grubbing cheap creep) didn't DO what most people do...and pre-install more inspection rings (Cripes, the plastic rings are PENNIES and only add a few MINUTES to the cover job!). But there is VIRTUALLY NOTHING under an un-opened wing that requires normal servicing that cannot be accessed through whatever "hole" is nearly. There are pulleys at the aileron exits on the wings (but you CAN look at them with a borescope...AND lube them, through the little holes where they exit the wings. The WHOLE WING can be inspected internally without inspection covers, IF the Inspector has a long enough borescope...there are 6 foot "whips" for 1/4" probes that have air line connections, and with the controls on the hand unit, you can literally "FLY" the borescope around inside the wing. I used to do exactly that on the Big Bird's engines (ever wonder how you inspect the blade roots on a jet engine T-wheel that is "on the wing"? THAT is how you do that. There are enough "openings" in a short wing mounted on the airplane to "go inside" to your heart's content. MOST IAs won't have these expensive borescopes. Some DO. Those that do (at least have "access" to one) won't NEED any inspection openings, until such time as they have to remove and replace something.
The pitot tube hose connection on the left wing...this is not what you would necessarily call a "normal inspection item". If there is ever an "on condition" problem with the ASI, well...you would probably have to INSTALL an opening there. MOST PEOPLE leave the pitot hose OUT when recovering, but obviously, THIS PERSON hooked it up (or left it hanging out through the mount opening and masked it). "Legally actionable?" I'd say, probably "not". I understand your frustration. I disagree with having left these items "out", for whatever the ignorant, OFF TOPIC, misguided reasoning that was used to rationalize it. But I have to "come down" on the side of "If your IA needs access that wasn't provided, he will have to provide it." This ultimately goes back to "Caveat Emptor". Maybe you should not have been "expected" to have thought of this when you looked at the airplane before you bought it. However "ignorance" is not defense (let me explain right here that I make distiction between "Ignorance" and "Stupidity". Ignorance is a pure and simple "lack of knowlege" and nothing "attached"; "Stupidity" is when you "choose" or are "unable" to learn something, for whatever reason. Ignorance is an embarrassment; Stupidity is a disease. One can be corrected through effort; the other MAY either benefit from medical treatment, or not).
A "good IA" can always figure out how to accomplish a difficult task in a "least invasive", Professional, and satisfactory manner (this is NOT meant to say "cheat something". Far from it) if he prides himself in the accomplishment of his responsibilities. The Owner has final input into how something "works" or "looks" when the job is done; deciding "just what that will take monetarily" is a job for BOTH to undertake, TOGETHER. Sorry someone with a larger brain didn't cover your airplane...you know what to to look for in that respect, on the next one! Getting angry only makes seeing the "right way out" harder, it NEVER makes it easier. Cool yer jets, take some coffee and a bag of fat pills over to the IA's office, and hash this out like thinking men. Whatever you do will wind up "there for the duration", so if you HAVE TO, consider the amortization across the years you have Ownership. The smile, and enjoy yourself. Grampa taught this young Whippersnapper the Two Rules For Getting Along In This Life..."Number One: Don't sweat the Small S^&*. Number Two: It's ALL Small S^&*!!!"
redbarron55
09-09-2010, 02:23 PM
JohnW,
Again I have to agree with you.
JDB
Lownslow
09-09-2010, 05:01 PM
That's good John. One of my favorites from the Rodney, "Look out for No. 1, just don't step in #2".
Lou S.
redacted to protect the innocent
P.o.P.
09-13-2010, 01:19 PM
Bob
I REALLY think you should have put your comments here BEFORE filing a Formal Complaint with FAA.
There have been instances where folks claimed the airplane was UNAIRWORTHY.
They were then very surprised when the feds suspended their pilot's license!
Per FAR the OWNER is responsible forAirworthiness..
Violations need not be A & P OR the owner.
It can & often is BOTH.
I do agree wth your OPINION that there are not enough insprction holes.
HOWEVER; you also state you do not know where they go!
One of your pics shows the aft fuselage lower panel removed.
This provides great access to the trim jackscew & all else in the tail.
Many Short Wings (Colts, Vags) do NOT have this feature.
While unlikely; there is the possibility of the inspector having used a Scope opf some sort.
To me;filing a Formal Complaint is a serious undertaking that you may not have appreciated.
Don't take a knife to a gunfight.
There is a lot of knowledgeable folks on this forum.
Hopefully they will advise you.
Also; be aware that AOPA has a Legal Defense plan.
With the legal situation today you may need it.
PS- I have found few attorneys proficient with fabric work.
redacted to protect the innocent
I would bet the person signing this log likely signs off every annual in the same fashion, however means they determine their inspection and actions sufficient. If I were advising this person of how to properly sign off an annual, it would not look this way. Some obvious issues are evident with this person's knowledge and experience with fabric covered aircraft. You can fret over the past and consider tarring and feathering, or whatever you choose to do to this person, or you can look forward, make some new friends here, and get your bird inspected in the manner to meet your expectations and satisfaction.
Hey, life is too short... get over it. If you go through life and this is the worst deal you have gotten, consider yourself fortunate. You have shared and pointed out to others how important it is to adhere to specifications and procedures. Sometimes we as owners / operators have to have both eyes open (foreward and back) to look out for ourselves. Sometimes we combine our knowledge from life's lesson's and trudge foreward. I think you will find friends here that can help.
Best of luck,
Lou S.
Thanks for your considered and honest reply.
The logbook entry looks like word-processing on a sticky label, and seems to be specific to work done on this plane, not a boilerplate thing, which confuses me if he says "lubricated bell cranks" and they're not all accessible.
I agree life is too short, and yes there have been way more drastic problems in mine than this... I just do not like to pay money for something from a professional, and then not have them stand behind their work...is that a bad thing?
I used to live in Maine, and a farm equipment dealer there had a sign:
We stand behind ALL our Farm equipment, 'cept our manure spreader.
Steve Pierce
09-13-2010, 02:45 PM
Bob, It all makes sense to me of how you got where you did with the FAA. No big deal and I doubt anyone will be the worst because of it. The mechanic who covered the A/C should have realized he needed an inspection plate at the aileron pulleys. Be hard to hook up the aileron cables without access and harder to inspect and lubricate. Do you have an FAA Form 337 for the covering of the aircraft? If so I would check on what it was covered with and the top coat paint. With that information I can give you the instructions per the fabric STC on how to install a grommet to allow access to this area that you can give your mechanic. Should take about 15 minutes at the very most to complete.
Things like this are the point in having a type specific group of aircraft owners. We can freely spread the knowledge about the operation and maintenance of our airplanes with each other. We all know the FAA and the majority of the mechanics don't have enough experience as needed as is evident in the lack of inspection plates on Bob's airplane and many other topics that come up here quite often. Glad Bob posted his pictures and question because I can guarantee anyone who has read this thread won't make the mistake of not putting the inspection grommets where they need to go. :smile:
Bob, It all makes sense to me of how you got where you did with the FAA. No big deal and I doubt anyone will be the worst because of it. The mechanic who covered the A/C should have realized he needed an inspection plate at the aileron pulleys. Be hard to hook up the aileron cables without access and harder to inspect and lubricate. Do you have an FAA Form 337 for the covering of the aircraft? If so I would check on what it was covered with and the top coat paint. With that information I can give you the instructions per the fabric STC on how to install a grommet to allow access to this area that you can give your mechanic. Should take about 15 minutes at the very most to complete.
Things like this are the point in having a type specific group of aircraft owners. We can freely spread the knowledge about the operation and maintenance of our airplanes with each other. We all know the FAA and the majority of the mechanics don't have enough experience as needed as is evident in the lack of inspection plates on Bob's airplane and many other topics that come up here quite often. Glad Bob posted his pictures and question because I can guarantee anyone who has read this thread won't make the mistake of not putting the inspection grommets where they need to go. :smile:
Thanks Steve,
I just got my logbooks back and have a different IA with a shop lined up to do the job, and add the needed inspection rings.
P.o.P.
09-13-2010, 04:04 PM
Filing a Formal Complaint with FAA is like pulling a Fire Alarm.
End result is the fire may be out but
1. Flowers are trampled
2. Trucks on lawn
3. Flooded basement
4. Hole in roof
etc.
Contrary to some folks my belief is that most FAA guys don't go looking for trouble.
However; when "trouble" presents itself they can not ignore it.
Stating an aircraft is Unairworthy & continuing to fly it could result n a violation.
Even if it is NOT DELIBERATE.
Another example is an AD that is missed during an Annual Inspoection.
The FAA will usually come down hard on the Inspecting Agency for this.
However; every PILOT that flew the aircraft during the period of non-compliance may be cited as well.
Takes the fun out quickly.
Filing a Formal Complaint with FAA is like pulling a Fire Alarm.
End result is the fire may be out but
1. Flowers are trampled
2. Trucks on lawn
3. Flooded basement
4. Hole in roof
etc.
Contrary to some folks my belief is that most FAA guys don't go looking for trouble.
However; when "trouble" presents itself they can not ignore it.
Stating an aircraft is Unairworthy & continuing to fly it could result n a violation.
Even if it is NOT DELIBERATE.
Another example is an AD that is missed during an Annual Inspoection.
The FAA will usually come down hard on the Inspecting Agency for this.
However; every PILOT that flew the aircraft during the period of non-compliance may be cited as well.
Takes the fun out quickly.
I hear you on the "flowers trampled!" As a former firefighter it is quite the visual! Thanks.
The aircraft is now at a different IA with instructions to add needed inspection grommets/plates/holes etc.
Regards,
Bob
nicka
09-13-2010, 04:18 PM
Unfortunatly we live a world of interpretation as far as regs go, especially where these older aircraft are involved. They were built in a pre-lawyer FAA enforcement action environment, and the FAA relys on their designee system, namely IA's to fill that role. It's my opinion that the FAA is more and more losing the General Aviation inspectors that know these airplanes and how they were built, certified, and modified. So often the FAA inspectors you deal with know little to nothing about these aircraft. Also your aircraft is required to have an Annual inspection every year regardless of how much you fly it, this does not take in to account your usage or type of use. I can not tell you how many $120,000.00 Supercubs, 180's or whatever that I have annualed w/ 5 or less hours on them since last annual. Here the airplane sits and it still costs the guy $1200.00 or so to have an inspection done when its obvious that the airplane is immaculate. So as an IA you get to decide what's in the best interest of Airworthiness and safety and try to save your customers a few bucks and keep everyone flying. The FAA will just come in sometimes w/ this "Kill 'em all sort 'em out later" philosophy. So unless there is something unsafe, unairworthy w/ your airplane it looks like your previous IA did his job, If your current IA does not like something this is where we part ways professionally. You as the owner are also on the hook regulation wise to keep your airplane airworthy, So it is really important to work w/ your IA and make sure you both know what you want and what to expect.
Unfortunatly we live a world of interpretation as far as regs go, especially where these older aircraft are involved. They were built in a pre-lawyer FAA enforcement action environment, and the FAA relys on their designee system, namely IA's to fill that role. It's my opinion that the FAA is more and more losing the General Aviation inspectors that know these airplanes and how they were built, certified, and modified. So often the FAA inspectors you deal with know little to nothing about these aircraft. Also your aircraft is required to have an Annual inspection every year regardless of how much you fly it, this does not take in to account your usage or type of use. I can not tell you how many $120,000.00 Supercubs, 180's or whatever that I have annualed w/ 5 or less hours on them since last annual. Here the airplane sits and it still costs the guy $1200.00 or so to have an inspection done when its obvious that the airplane is immaculate. So as an IA you get to decide what's in the best interest of Airworthiness and safety and try to save your customers a few bucks and keep everyone flying. The FAA will just come in sometimes w/ this "Kill 'em all sort 'em out later" philosophy. So unless there is something unsafe, unairworthy w/ your airplane it looks like your previous IA did his job, If your current IA does not like something this is where we part ways professionally. You as the owner are also on the hook regulation wise to keep your airplane airworthy, So it is really important to work w/ your IA and make sure you both know what you want and what to expect.
Thanks nicka
I have no quarrel with the inspection process. Wish boats had the same process in fact, but they don't. The IA who refused to continue is in a new state, and never saw the plane before, so I understand his reluctance and disagree on parting ways... you as an IA have that right however. Taking annual compression tests, cleaning plugs, changing oil etc., helps to watch any problems that may be developing, even though airworthy, and are like a blood pressure record. People on the other hand can have a "perfect" physical exam one day, and die of heart attack the next. I always told my patients that if they died on the way OUT of my office, I'd turn the body around to make it look like they were coming IN. (joke here, no need to question medical ethics.)
Bob
P.o.P.
09-13-2010, 04:45 PM
What is the current status of the "Formal Complaint"?
You could write a novel ( As the Prop Spins) as to the bizarre twists & turns these things can generate.
Can it be withdrawn?
One thing you may want to be aware of is concerning the conduct of an Annual Insp.
It is usually prudent to COMPLETE the inspection before starting any repairs.
Once you KNOW what's on the table you can act accordingly.
1. Go ahead- fix it.
or
2.Designate the aircraft UNAIRWORTHY & list the discrepancies.
What this really is stating is that the aircraft is in fact AIRWORTHY except for the items noted.
The good thing about this method is that it allows you to go to any Agency to correct the discrepancies.
It does NOT have to be the one that did the inspection.
Starting all over usually means paying all over as well.
As you can see most folks on this forum consider this a relatively minor matter.
It could have been handled per method 2.
My guess is that FAA also has bigger fish to fry.
I spoke with the FSDO today, and withdrew my complaint. I sent this email to them and he phoned me.
Having talked via a forum to other Tri-pacer owners, perhaps it is best to withdraw the complaint, since they think that only one plate may be missing, and that if the inspector who did the annuals on it after re-cover had no suspicions (since they knew the plane) and the inspection grommets were not required at recover per the Piper manual, then it was no fraud or big thing. I do not want to cause any problems with my naiveté or inexperience here.
Maybe I over-reacted, and it would be best to halt the complaint if possible?
Regards,
P.o.P.
09-13-2010, 09:08 PM
Good move.
BTW- I understand docs & lawyers are usually not "Best Buds"!
Curly
09-13-2010, 10:36 PM
Bob - Are you sure you don't have any doctor type relatives in Aus?.
My GP (also my Designated Aviation Medical Examiner) has a similar sense of humour. You should see the grin he gets on his face when it's time for a flu shot or any other reason to give me a jab. He knows I hate them so relishes the opportunity and walks in from the pharmacy waving the bloody thing around like a dart.
However he is a pilot (tricycle) and I intend to get my own back as soon as Patsy flies - lets see if he can grin while trying to keep a short arsed little Pacer tracking down the centreline :rolleyes:
Lownslow
09-14-2010, 04:30 AM
Welcome, Bob. I have been through Westcliffe many times (by land) en route to where my wife and I like to vacation near Buena Vista. A beautiful town you have there. We like to come up there (through the 14'ers) during the Summer to get a "fix", from the views and cool weather there most of the time, that is. I plan to be coming up by air in the near future. My wife loves flying nearly as much as I do. Our first cross country flight together was up to Col. Springs back in '78 (our honeymoon), and my first trip to the mountains - been hooked ever since. I like your part of Colorado that hasn't been completely ravaged by urban sprawl.
Best of luck with your TriPacer.
Lou S.
Lownslow
09-14-2010, 04:33 AM
BTW, it's a great place to enjoy a Fosters there Curly.
Lou
Bob - Are you sure you don't have any doctor type relatives in Aus?.
My GP (also my Designated Aviation Medical Examiner) has a similar sense of humour. You should see the grin he gets on his face when it's time for a flu shot or any other reason to give me a jab. He knows I hate them so relishes the opportunity and walks in from the pharmacy waving the bloody thing around like a dart.
However he is a pilot (tricycle) and I intend to get my own back as soon as Patsy flies - lets see if he can grin while trying to keep a short arsed little Pacer tracking down the centreline :rolleyes:
Dear Curly,
My best regards to Moe and Larry. I am what in the USA is called a "physician assistant." That said, my job is basically very similar to a doctor of medicine. I do not have full solo rights, and work collaboratively with a supervisory doc, and when in question I always refer a patient. I see patients independently (I work in Alaska's remote "bush" areas) through "remote supervision" with a doctor who may be 50-2200 miles away, using email, phone, internet cameras etc. I've been doing this for 27 years now, and am near retirement.
This is my first wholly owned Tri-Pacer, but my late dad had one for many years that we shared. I love them. With the EGT/CHT gauge that the previous owner installed, I can go to 8500' ASL (airport here is 4500' asl) and if not in any hurry, manage 100mph indicated on 4.7 GPH of no-ethanol auto fuel, 87 octane.
I have a long standing email relationship with a doctor who moved from Aus to SA, then to NZ. He wrote a software I implemented in a clinic where I work, called GPDesk. It is an electronic medical record, practice management, decision making assistance, billing, and inventory/scheduling software that is truly magnificent. He is Dr. Patrick Crisp. Very intelligent, and always friendly when I send him a question.
G'day mate! :smile:
Bob
Welcome, Bob. I have been through Westcliffe many times (by land) en route to where my wife and I like to vacation near Buena Vista. A beautiful town you have there. We like to come up there (through the 14'ers) during the Summer to get a "fix", from the views and cool weather there most of the time, that is. I plan to be coming up by air in the near future. My wife loves flying nearly as much as I do. Our first cross country flight together was up to Col. Springs back in '78 (our honeymoon), and my first trip to the mountains - been hooked ever since. I like your part of Colorado that hasn't been completely ravaged by urban sprawl.
Best of luck with your TriPacer.
Lou S.
Dear Lownslow (took a minute...I'm oldnslow)
Flying in this area is sure different. I keep the plane in Pueblo, since hangars at W'cliffe were unavailable. Due to savage summer hailstorms, it would be a disaster to keep the plane out in the open, plus the altitude exacerbates the UV damage to everything too. Taking off at Westcliffe's strip, (CO8) 7700' of new pavement thanks to the owner of a local ranch who is very wealthy, is an experience. Mountain flying in general is way different. The altimeter saying over 8200' BEFORE starting the engine always gets me. 95% of my pre-Colorado flying was in New England, Mass, Maine etc., BELOW 3000'! Hardly ever leaned an engine there.
So leaning the engine during runup is de-rigeur routine here. The EGT/CHT gauge makes that a very nice and simple process too. Taking several hours of dual with an instructor on mountain safety flying is also a good idea. The winds here can make things (as Laugh In's Arty Johnson used to say,) "verrrrrry interesting..." Basically I stay out of situations that put me near mountains on the lee side when windy, and approach passes with as much altitude as N6173D can muster, keeping at least 1000' for fudge factor. I don't go over passes when the weather is bad...my own limitations. I have yet to land at Leadville (http://www.lakecountyco.com/airport/), and hope to do that to log the highest airport in the US at 9927' ASL.
Westcliffe is indeed a beautiful place. We're selling our primary house there and planning to move back to Vt. however for family reasons. We'll miss it. Once we sell the place, we'll be out of here.
HERE (http://www.mtnhomes.com/index.cfm?action=propdetails&id=799926&startrow=1&item=1&photoexist=yes&runadlist=no&force=1191&&quicktour&nosurvey)is the listing if anyone is interested btw. The house is "Off The Grid" electrically, and the pictures tell the rest of why we built it there. My wife and I did 90% of the labor, hiring only the sheetrock and some help for framing. She is quite the carpenter and copes shingles so that you can't tell if they go behind the chimney or in front!
Regards and thanks for writing.
Bob
Lownslow
09-15-2010, 12:51 PM
Verrry nice, there Bob. I'd consider buying your home, but I'd have to sell my airplanes.
Lou
Lownslow
09-15-2010, 01:02 PM
Verrry nice, there Bob. I'd consider buying your home, but I'd have to sell my airplanes.
Lou
Curly
09-15-2010, 05:06 PM
Bob - if I ever decide to emigrate that would be a great spot to live. I have always had a "thing" for Colorado and the Rockies thanks partly to John Wayne in Rio Bravo, (remember Ricky Nelson as "Colorado") and John Denver's Rocky Mountain High. I once saw a video of JD doing aero's in a Pitts with the mountains in the background and "Rocky Mountain High" playing - fell in love with the place.
So it was a lifetime dream fulfilled when we did the Amtrak trip from Denver to San Francisco in April. Following the Colorado river through the mountains was just awesome! :biggrin:
Lownslow
09-15-2010, 05:34 PM
Great place for a Fosters, right Curly?
Lou
Curly
09-15-2010, 07:48 PM
Spot on - little lake, log cabin, pine trees, mountains in the background, relaxing in a rocking chair with a smoke and a beer! Heaven on a stick! :cool:
Gilbert Pierce
09-15-2010, 09:28 PM
Curly
You'd being drinking that awful American beer though.
mike mcs repair
09-16-2010, 12:01 AM
hi bob...
my $0.02
read most of the replies....
the IA kinda over reacted, or was unfamiliar with plane type... yes I saw one missing ring... kinda bad form.....
the one thing to remember is there are 'inspection' rings, then there are 'maintenance' rings that are only to be cut out when you need to fix something... I get quite annoyed at mechanics that don't know what they are doing and cut out all the holes... shows they are not familiar with the type of plane.... (but they are charging you$$)
my projects have rings anywhere there is something that might need future work(as I might be the poor sole doing the work, and I don't want some heathen messing up the fabric job), with explicit instructions to the owners to pull there plane out of anywhere that wants to open them all up just because they are there, if they are that clueless, your plane and wallet need to RUN!.....
Curly
09-16-2010, 01:43 AM
Gil - After I have fallen off my stool a couple of times, I can't tell the difference :rolleyes:
redbarron55
09-16-2010, 06:38 AM
Have you lost your drinking belt?
I pulled down the original accusatory and unnecessary complaint about the inspection process, it is all resolved and good now.
I am writing from Alaska, due home in 4 days after 7 week gig. Ready to go flying again, although I logged quite a bit of right seat time in bush planes here on the Yukon delta. Will post some pix of this trip, bush airports on Tundra Alaska, etc.
Lots of showings on the house, so maybe someone will buy, got a few coming for second looks.
Bob:cool:
HERE (http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=252683&id=704294059&l=427b27103c)
is the facebook link to photos of the trips to various Yupik and Chupik villages... great kids. Doing "Headstart" school physicals, dental fluoride appliations, referrals for offsite care at village centers, or other hospitals.
Dwain
06-07-2012, 10:06 AM
O.K. Guys,
I have joined the loosing inspection plate cover club. The fabric seems O.K. I plan to use Steve's fix:
You can also install two #4 PK screws through the inspection plate, reinforcement ring and into the spring steel tabs that hold the inspection plate in place
My understanding of how to do this is to drill a small hole through each side of the cover and metal retaining tabs on the back. Put it in place and drill through the fabric and reinforcement ring and install (2) #4 P-K screws to hold it in place. Should I orient the screws parallel or perpendicular to the fuselage. I hate to beat this to death, but hate to screw it up even worse. Thanks - Dwain
slowingdown
05-14-2015, 06:44 PM
Gilbert, i am working on a PA-22-108 that had its wings recently recovered and I am working with the owner to reinstall the wings (he didn't do the recover job). To reinstall the ailerons the only inspection ring to cut out and reach the end of the cables is right next to the aileron well (on the bottom) where the cables exit next to the inspection cover. Was there supposed to be one in the area of the second to third rib (counting the tip full rib as one) or do I need to tie onto the 2 clevises at that aileron area and pull them through til the other end can connect up to the T/B or clevis between the wing and fuselage and then repull the cable back through to connect them on the upper and lower positions on the aileron horn. Gordy in Minn.
Gilbert Pierce
05-15-2015, 04:56 PM
I am not familiar with the PA22 control system. The Clipper lower aileron cable runs up the strut and across the bottom of the wing and attaches to the lower aileron horn; all out in the open.
The upper cable, cross over cable runs from the right wing upper aileron horn around a pulley to change directions, thru a fair lead in the wing and then another fairlead attached to the wing rear spart attach bolts, across the top of the fuselage to another fairlead attached to the left wing rear spar attach bolt and then outboard about 2 ribs to the turn buckel that connects to the short cable from the left aileron upper hinge. At that connection there is usually two round inspection covers or one large square inspection cove to allow access to attach the turn buckles and safety wire them.
Looking at drawing 15094, wing uncovered for the Colt the controls are different.
The wing installation drawing, 15140, fig 4 may help.
There are probably some folks on here more familiar with the Colt wing controls that can give you better information.
sierrasplitter
04-19-2019, 11:23 PM
Flew so fast today one of my under wing inspection covers flew off. I would like to fly tomorrow and Im a newbie Pacer owner so is it ok to use duct tape to cover the hole while waiting for a new cover ? If so any preferred method of applying the tape ?
Thanks
kevbot
04-20-2019, 12:30 AM
Duct tape is fine, sometimes it'll stay on better than inspection plates near the wing root if you don't secure those with a self tapper. I like to put a layer of tape on along X (longitudinally) then a layer along Y (spanwise) making sure to start the Y strips aft then overlapping with each fwd strip so that the seams are overlapped downwind.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
ClippedWing
04-20-2019, 07:52 AM
You could also ask around the airport to see if anyone has a spare. I took one home to paint it after I brought my plane home and forgot it one day when I was at the airport to fly. Sure enough, one of the old locals had a pile of covers and I found one to use up that day. Easy.
Come up to Corona and get a stash from Spruce!
ClippedWing
04-20-2019, 07:55 AM
Or if I get done early today I could fly one down...
sierrasplitter
04-20-2019, 08:52 AM
Lucky Me Chris.....on call again for two weeks so I have to hang around San Diego but Im open all day today if you want to fly down you got my Number Glad my post was moved into this thread. Cant believe I couldn't find this on search ( Yes I used that function)
anyway I now have to go back and read the thread because It looks like it may be a bit more than just a new cover The cloth around the area looks like it needs finishing to me
15055
Stephen
04-20-2019, 10:25 AM
I use recessed inspection cover, like the in board cover in the picture. And, I keep a few on hand.
Steve Pierce
04-20-2019, 02:18 PM
Google works better than our search box. "missing inspection cover site:shortwingpipers.org" is how I search stuff.
sierrasplitter
04-22-2019, 08:01 AM
I order some of the recessed covers from Aircraft Spruce. Looking at my wing I don't have the plastic rings Just cloth right up to the hole. Cloth looks a bit ragged around the hole so I am going to glue in the plastic rings before installing the plate. If I can find access to a brake I will fab up the same aluminum piece Steve has made to stop the Drumming.
Just need to go into my logs ab
nd figure out what glue. Lots of small paint chips in that area too. I have a can of matching paint for the aircraft from Univair. I may use a small brush to do touch ups.
Being new to fabric is it ok to put paint onto the ring/fabric or is there prep work before paint ? All dings are less than the size of a dime
Stephen
04-22-2019, 10:26 AM
There are a couple of ways to fix this, the easiest is simply glue a plastic ring on and paint. Use, any of the aircraft fabric glues, I even used contact cement. Filling in missing paint chunks is hard to get a decent finish. You can simply paint it or you can try and fill the fabric with any aircraft fabric filler first, then paint. Either way it will look a bit rough. You really want to keep UV from getting to the fabric. The filler you use should have a UV block.
I would get metal rings from Steve Pierce, glue them on with Stewart's glue, use lots of clothes pins. Then cut out a patch one inch diameter larger than the ring. Glue this on also using Stewart's glue, let dry. Iron to shrink. Cut out fabric inside the ring leaving one of loose fabric inside. Cut slits in the inner fabric then fold the flaps inside. Iron the flaps down inside the wing. There should be enough glue to get them to stick down well. Brush in coats of Stewart's Ecofill then paint. I left out a few details but, if you are new to fabric you should watch their video on how to put on inspection covers and use their glue.
Steve Pierce
04-23-2019, 06:32 AM
I use Stewart System glue and install the new inspection ring on the inside and outside and hold it in place with cloths pins till dried.
sierrasplitter
04-23-2019, 08:14 AM
Does anyone make a spray can paint that's useable ? I have a quart of topcoat but it will be applied by brush if I cant find a rattle can
Also Steve can you send me the part link to your metal rings ? Thanks
dgapilot
04-23-2019, 08:25 AM
Does anyone make a spray can paint that's useable ? I have a quart of topcoat but it will be applied by brush if I cant find a rattle can
Also Steve can you send me the part link to your metal rings ? Thanks
Lots of automotive paint stores can make up a spray can of paint. Not sure if they would take your pain and make up a spray can, but worth a try.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
6PapaWhiskey
04-23-2019, 08:26 AM
Does anyone make a spray can paint that's useable ? I have a quart of topcoat but it will be applied by brush if I cant find a rattle can
I've never used one of these, but a friend used them often with good results: https://preval.com/overview/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-4PY66fm4QIV1rrACh025QYvEAAYASAAEgKpVvD_BwE
You can find them in the aviation departments at Lowe's and Home Depot.
Stephen
04-23-2019, 08:33 AM
I use Stewart System glue and install the new inspection ring on the inside and outside and hold it in place with cloths pins till dried.
This is quick, simple and cheap. Maybe, use metal rings and rivet them together when the glue dries.
andya
04-23-2019, 10:39 AM
I used one of these doing repairs prior to the restoration several years back.
It was acceptable
Steve Pierce
04-24-2019, 06:20 AM
Does anyone make a spray can paint that's useable ? I have a quart of topcoat but it will be applied by brush if I cant find a rattle can
Also Steve can you send me the part link to your metal rings ? Thanks
I do not sell the round rings in metal.
What is your airplane painted with? If Polytone or butyrate dope I would use the sprayer 6PapaWhisky linked. Spray can paints can bubble up and make a mess depending on what the airplane is painted with.
sierrasplitter
04-24-2019, 07:38 AM
Its Butyrate . Thanks for all the info. supplies arrive tomorrow really tired of looking at Duct tape
Steve Pierce
04-24-2019, 07:52 AM
I would use the little sprayer or I have applied butyrate with a brush, just takes several coats.
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