New VGs on experimental Pacer

[Wheelie Wayne]

I just recently finished installing VGs from www.landshorter.com (http://www.landshorter.com) on my experimental Pacer (99% PA 22/20). Does it ever make a delightful difference. Stall speed dropped about 7 kts or a little more. I was flying around at 39kts with full flaps the other day and it was really quite stable. I have not been a big fan of wheel landing in the Pacer in the past (I know, hard to believe for "Wheelie Wayne") but now I just come in tailwheel low and roll 'er up on the mains at touch down and it is a piece of cake. I am very pleased with the new slow flight characteristics, money for the VGs was well spent.

[longpacer]

This was my experience too with the Micro aero VGs I installed this past summer. I was surprised at how much difference they made in stability, aileron authority at slow speeds and elevator power in the flare. I had been reluctant to put them on before because I was worried about problems with wing covers in the winter, but that has turned out to be a non issue. Wish I would have installed them years ago.
Bob

[avcan]

We had exactly the same experience as you Wheelie Wayne with our Micro VG's.
Stall speed dropped 6 knots, and low speed stability is awesome - it feels like it's on railway tracks at 50 knots.
Tail low wheelers are definitely the only way to go!

Craig

[cook11]

Which VG's should I purchase?
Stolspeed or Micro?
My plane is experimental so Stolspeeds would work. Price is a big thing and the micros are expensive! I like how the Stolspeeds have some give and won't get damaged as easy.

[Stephen]

I like my Micro's but know nothing about Stolspeeds. If they perform the same...save the $.

[chopper12]

I just bought some of the Landshorter VG's they are only $95 for 100 plus $4.95 shipping.
But I have not installed them yet .Here is their info below.They have FAQ section. These are for Experimental.
How much are the Stolspeeds?

Harrison Designs, LLCTP.O. Box 365
Kootenai, ID 83840
1-877-272-1414 (toll free
http://www.landshorter.com/page11.html

[cook11]

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/stolspeed.php

[longpacer]

If price is a major consideration, the stolspeed or landshorter sets would seem the choice. But the Micros are a proven product, and they come in a very complete kit including an illustrated manual, templates, adhesive and everything you need. I put them on my experimental several years ago and would do it again. The installation went well and I had confidence I got them on correctly. Performance gains were as predicted. They have tolerated wing covers in the winter, refueling, and being tied down outside with no problems. The only damage I’ve seen is one I bent probably when brushing snow off the wings, and that straightened right up with a pair of pliers. None have come off. In my book, the Micros are a quality product. I believe the price for experimental applications is $395.

Bob

[Steve Pierce]

I agree with Bob. Micro might cost a little more but they have been tested on our wings for optimal placement and are proven.

[cook11]

I sent Micro an email regarding whether or not they have a generic kit for experimental aircraft. Even though my plane is a pacer but not certified if I can save a couple hundred dollars then I'll order them!

[Wheelie Wayne]

I installed the Land Shorter VGs on my exp. Pacer. It was an easy install (I used the template from Micro I copied from someone else). I am very pleased with the performance of the VG, but then I have not flown with anyone else's VGs fro a comparison.

[cook11]

Micro VG's for uncertified pacers is $595. It's exactly like the certified pacer comes complete.

[Jinkers]

Just out of curiousity (because I don't know didly about it)... Would it be possible to get a field approval for the Landshorter or Stolspeed VG's? If so would it end up costing more then the Micros in the end?

[Grantmac]

I'm looking at doing VGs in the next few months and I'd love to be able to get the Stolspeeds approved just for the flexibility and looks. Unfortunately something tells me I'll be going with Micros for the ease of paperwork.

-Grant

[Wheelie Wayne]

I have never tried to get a field approval so I know nothing about that process but I would guess it all depends on your FSDO

[danP]

I plan on getting Microaero VGs. Before that however I plan to put some leading edge tape on the wing. My question is how many inches back from the leading edge do Microaero vgs go?

[d.grimm]

My FSDO won't give a Field Approval if there
is a STC option.
Dave

[Bob.shea]

What kind of performance gain are you guys seeing? how will they help out someone who just flies around central Illinois?

[Jim Hann]

What kind of performance gain are you guys seeing? how will they help out someone who just flies around central Illinois?
About the same I get in St. Louis Bob! :p Just kidding. I only flew the airplane with them but just for the controllability only they were/are nice. Stall is a non-event, just a mush power off, didn't really mess with power on. While checking out in the beast if we got crossways on the runway we just pulled it off the ground, no matter the speed.

I've got a 57 22/20 with Micros.

Jim

[danP]

I've got a 57 22/20 with Micros.

Jim

Jim, how far back from the leading edge do those go?

[Bob.shea]

I do not see a STC for the stolspeed. I would assume that to put them on my Tripacer a STC is required. The price makes them a no brainer for me. Looks like I will be adding something new to my plane this summer

[Jim Hann]

Jim, how far back from the leading edge do those go?

Dan, right now I can't tell you exactly. The VGs from the old wings have been removed and are in a bag waiting to be replaced. I can give you an estimate based on the paint marks when I get home. If you can wait a little bit I will be ordering the "repaint kit" that should come with all the templates and I can tell you exactly.

Off the top of my head I can tell you that the ones on the landing light lens are an inch or two forward of the aft edge but that is only a guesstimate.

As for when I'll get home, I'm on reserve. Could be home Sunday, might not be home until Wednesday.

Jim

[mmoyle]

Microaero repaint kit came in today... I'm wondering....when can I install the VG's on bare fabric/tapes/fabric glue?
Mark M.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[tloes]

Microaero repaint kit came in today... I'm wondering....when can I install the VG's on bare fabric/tapes/fabric glue?
Mark M.

An even bigger question -- put them on before paint or after? Would it not look better in the long run if they were unpainted?

[mmoyle]

Looks better on the wings if mounted before the final coat of paint. The first set I rattle can painted then installed. Didn't color match the paint or would have painted after installation to hide the glue I didn't completely remove. I'd like to glue directly to the fabric on the stabilizers. Might stay on longer....I'll not see paved runways often.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Jim Hann]

Mark, I had issues with something in the Micro kit reacting with the Stewarts EkoFill primer when I put the VGs on the primer as they recommended. I elected to paint the rest of the VGs separate and will be putting them on the wings in the next few weeks once I have the tank covers finished.

Since SuperFlite is solvent based I don't know if you'll have a problem but it might be worth doing just one stab first to make sure.

Jim

[mmoyle]

Should try it. I covered both stabilIzers.... For the right side. Going to call them good. One of them the tapes line up so well it's very difficult to tell. I'll experiment on the one the tapes off a bit.

[Jim Hann]

I put drain holes in both right flaps. [emoji41]

[mmoyle]

Jim,
What did you space the rib stitches at on the elevator and rudder? The stabilizers are 4" apart. I'm thinking about the same spacing on the elevators. One for concentricity, two...I'm wondering how much the vortices will increase the vibration of the fabric on the bottom side of the elevators and or pull on the fabric when the elevator is deflected up . Then the rudder.....I like to give it full rudder during a slip right to left....4" spacing there too?
Mark


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Jim Hann]

Mark, I used 4" on the rudder and elevators. They were done just like the stab, working from the hinge line. Far more than original, which is what mine had. I didn't see any issues on the elevators except the rotten stitching, the rudder stitching was the only good stitching I found on the airplane!

I didn't see a picture of the stitches but here is one of the marks, I used the 1/2 distance rule for the first stitch. Let me know if the picture isn't coming through at a high enough resolution.
7879

Jim

[mmoyle]

Cool.....melting holes...at four


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[mmoyle]

Rudder ready for paint.http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/14/240702489390127ca65ff457858a7e79.jpg

[mmoyle]

Stabilizers still need drain grommets.http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/14/3b1af746b522fb7c21a745d466b46aa3.jpg
Like this one
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/14/bf08a185018ca470c45da09f1afbbee2.jpg

[Jim Hann]

Stewarts STC allows just burning a hole with a soldering iron, that is what I did. Only burnt one on the top side of an elevator, and I didn't even touch the fabric!
7882

[mmoyle]

Your picture makes....my arms ache! Remembering.....don't brush Stewart's primer on painted surfaces.....sand, sand, sand, sand.......sand some more....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Jim Hann]

You mean like this?
7902
7903

[mmoyle]

Yea...like that...but I didn't wait....waited long enough for wet sanding. Might shoot primer tomorrow. Need to build a couple three fixtures to paint the tail feathers. Don't think I have enough room to do the tail surfaces and the fuselage. Feathers first...move them out....then the fuselage.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Jim Hann]

I surprised a lot of folks when I told them you can't wet sand SS. I've got trigger finger in both of my middle fingers after doing all that sanding. Ugh.

If you build a proper rig for the tail you probably won't have room to do the fuselage also, I know I didn't.

Keep up the good work Mark.

[mmoyle]

Microaero answered my question....the VG's can be glued directly to the bare fabric, fabric tapes......


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[SuperPacer]

Mark,

I had a question on the "repaint kit" that you mentioned you received from Micro Aero. Their web site seems to indicate that they want the "removed" VG's returned to them?? After paying $200.00 for the repaint kit, seems like a rip off. On the other hand, I assume they are trying to keep the removed VGs ending up on another aircraft?? I'm planning to add PA-18 tail fathers to the Pacer and didn't want to re-use the existing VGs that are currently on the stock Pacer horizontal. The repaint kit sounded good ill I read about the "return pouch"! I'll probably just get the repair kit and re-use the ones I have. Hope there is a "epoxy release agent" to help removing the old ones!!

Your project looks great!!
john
Arizona Pacer

[mmoyle]

I didn't know they wanted the old ones back until opening the box? They did say please return them... Wonder if they'd fit the Bearhawk wing profile? Paid for them... So I don't know about returning them when I might be able to use them on my other airplane. No release agent in the box. They send an extra set of tail templates to place the outer two VG's. I was going to soak the old VG's in paint stripper to see if that would remove the paint and glue? I'll probably return the VG's that'll fit into the package... With little chunks of the fabric they're attached too.

[SuperPacer]

Cool,

Thanks for the quick reply!!

john

[Prosaria]

Yep, No release agent. I used pliers with fuel hose on the jaws to just pop them off, some of them you really have to work at but bend one way then the other and it only takes the paint underneath the VG with no damage to the VG itself. I put a Scotchbrite roloc pad on a die grinder to remove the paint/glue from the old VGs. I'm not sure my old ones will be going back either... I lost em.

[Steve Pierce]

I paint the wing and VGs seperate. Too easy to get runs trying to get the paint coverage even on the VGs.

[Jim Hann]

I did my tail VGs while in primer and I had issues with something in the kit softening the Stewarts latex primer. I painted the wing VGs separately and will be attaching them to the paint like Steve P mentions above. This also means I painted my spares.

My old VGs are in the envelope to mail back. They popped off the doped fabric pretty easily, only ones I couldn't get off were on the (old) landing light lens. I agree that they probably just want them back to avoid them being recycled.

Jim

[wyandot jim]

Well, Sending the old ones back is a new one on me. We had the VGs on our Baron replaced after new paint. There was no mention to send the old ones back. The new ones were in different locations do to their revisions. Even if you have the old ones you would still need the STC to install them on another aircraft.


I have not bought the ones for the Pacer yet and have never installed any.
The wings and Stabs are finished and are Poly-tone. My plan is to attach them to some two sided tape for painting then remove and install them per the STC. If anyone has a better idea please let me know.
Thanks,
Jim (the other one)

[mmoyle]

I'll apply wing VG's after paint. Depends on how the metallic green goes on..


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Jim]

Hi Jim,

......need the STC to install them on another aircraft.

Experimentals may not need an STC to find a use for them. Still a bum deal not keeping what you've paid for though, kind of like a core charge. Do you have to return the old ones before they'll send the replacements?

[Steve Pierce]

Your on the honor system. They just send you new VGs, templates, adhesive, activator, tape, tape measure, Q-tips etc. and a bag with a return label on it. You pay $695 for the STC and complete kit and then when you recover it is $200 for the complete kit less the STC and they ask that you return the old VGs. I have never been ased for them back. Actually found a bag we had forgotten to return recently.

[Ron Pogatchnik]

How do you go about getting Pacer designated as Experimental

[Ron Pogatchnik]

Steve,

Do the VG's shorten the TKO distance?

[Jim Hann]

How do you go about getting Pacer designated as Experimental

Why? Do you want to develop a new product like Steve is with Cathy's Tripe? You can't make it E-AB AND MOST OF THE OTHER expert,entail categories are very limiting.

[Ron Pogatchnik]

I don't quite understand your reply.
I want it experimental so that I have more options to use better equipment that is used in experimental aircraft. (Avionics,Props,etc.

If yours is designated experimental, how was that accomplished? Paperwork and resignation I mean.

[stevesaircraft(Bri)]

Simply re designating your aircraft as experimental is not going to happen this day and age.... The FAA put a stop to that years ago with the 51% rule... There was a time when you could simply change it with a little paperwork and I know of several that have but, alas, this is no longer the case...

Brian


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ron Pogatchnik]

Thanks for clearing that up.
I forgot the new 51% rule.

[wyandot jim]

Yea that 51% Experimental Homebuilt rule is a real piece of work. Tell me how I can buy a complete PA-18/Cub airframe from several vendors, Legend, Dakota, Carbon Cub and others. Go spend a couple of weeks putting it together with FACTORY help and have the owner listed as the builder. Yea right. I have 3 neighbors that have done that and I'm not sure they can even spell wrench let alone use one.
Jim
Check out the PA-18 on the cover of the new Spot Aviation that is flying in the Restricted Category :-(

[stevesaircraft(Bri)]

Yea that 51% Experimental Homebuilt rule is a real piece of work. Tell me how I can buy a complete PA-18/Cub airframe from several vendors, Legend, Dakota, Carbon Cub and others. Go spend a couple of weeks putting it together with FACTORY help and have the owner listed as the builder. Yea right. I have 3 neighbors that have done that and I'm not sure they can even spell wrench let alone use one.
Jim
Check out the PA-18 on the cover of the new Spot Aviation that is flying in the Restricted Category :-(

Yes, there is a fine line..... I have been told discretionally that the FAA actually likes to see "Professional" builds on experimental aircraft by people that know the aircraft.... Not everyone is capable to build their own airplane, even though they may have one that they fly... If you know what I mean..

Brian

[Jim Hann]

Yea that 51% Experimental Homebuilt rule is a real piece of work. Tell me how I can buy a complete PA-18/Cub airframe from several vendors, Legend, Dakota, Carbon Cub and others. Go spend a couple of weeks putting it together with FACTORY help and have the owner listed as the builder. Yea right. I have 3 neighbors that have done that and I'm not sure they can even spell wrench let alone use one.
Jim
Check out the PA-18 on the cover of the new Spot Aviation that is flying in the Restricted Category :-(

One way some of those are down is E-LSA. There is no 51% rule for those. That is an Experimental category but not E-AB. You can also do the maintenance on it after taking the 16 hour repairman course.

[wyandot jim]

You are correct on that BUT There are quite a few KITS/assemble the parts into an airplane out there. Neighbors have them Glass Star, RV-7, Kit Supper Cub Jim

[Steve Pierce]

Yea that 51% Experimental Homebuilt rule is a real piece of work. Tell me how I can buy a complete PA-18/Cub airframe from several vendors, Legend, Dakota, Carbon Cub and others. Go spend a couple of weeks putting it together with FACTORY help and have the owner listed as the builder. Yea right. I have 3 neighbors that have done that and I'm not sure they can even spell wrench let alone use one.
Jim
Check out the PA-18 on the cover of the new Spot Aviation that is flying in the Restricted Category :-(
That Super Cub on the cover of Sport Aviation started life as an Ag model. It has both a restricted and standard airworthiness. Great article about Mark and his Dad.

[wyandot jim]

Yes it is. Forgot about those. A model of our Champion also was in restricted Category