Tri Pacer front seat removal

[Bob M]

Ok, I'm new to shortwings and just found out that the Tri pacer front seat does not want to come out...do you have a trick or just cuss a lot?

[Steve Pierce]

Split seats or a bench? There is a secret botton in the middle that most be pushed up to allow the seat to go forward and out.

[Bob M]

It is a split seat '59 model

[Steve Pierce]

I will get a picture of the seat button and post it.

[Bob M]

Thx...you da man!

[Steve Pierce]

Someone showed me a special tool they made to slip in and release this pin. I can't for the life of me remember who it was or what it looked like. I will have to experiment a little bit.

[Zac Weidner]

I'm no expert because I have only taken the seats out a few times so far, but on one seat, I can push the button by hand to get it out but for the other, I use a long shafted standard screwdriver from the back underneath the seat and push on it with my other hand from between the seats. The only reason I even have to use the screwdriver is because I put the upholstery over the spring too tightly and it makes it a little more difficult.

[PeterL]

Steve
How about on a 20 series, does the back (of the bottom frame), pull up when seat is all the way forward, or does the front end come out first.

I've tried several times but no luck, my seat is hard to move all the way forward.

Thxs in advance.

Peter Lubig

[JoeB]

Steve
How about on a 20 series, does the back (of the bottom frame), pull up when seat is all the way forward, or does the front end come out first.

I've tried several times but no luck, my seat is hard to move all the way forward.

Thxs in advance.

Peter Lubig

Hi Peter,
If I am remembering this correctly, you are right. The PA20 seat must be adjusted all the way forward and then the rear lifts straight up out of the tracks.
I had some difficulty getting the seat bottom all the way forward also.
Here are two really bad photos!
Hope this helps,
Joe

BTW - Welcome to shortwingpipers.org!

[Steve Pierce]

I believe the early Pacers have a safety catch at the front to allow the seat to go all the way forward and then you have to lift it up and out. It helps to get someone to push from the back while you undo the latch and pull. Upolstry often helps to hinder the seat removal as Zac mentioned.

[PeterL]

Thanks, I thought I was approaching the removal right, maybe put some grease to the rails.
Plus, I'll get my wife to jump in and push from the back, one problem with that is she's a Pilot also and I'd have to go flying after and she'll demand that I sit in the right seat and take orders.

O'well, could be worse.....

Peter

[Steve Pierce]

I have the same problem Peter. ;-)

[JoeB]

I believe the early Pacers have a safety catch at the front to allow the seat to go all the way forward and then you have to lift it up and out. It helps to get someone to push from the back while you undo the latch and pull. Upolstry often helps to hinder the seat removal as Zac mentioned.

Yes, mine does have a safety catch. The bugger is getting the seat to move all the way forward as it binds up on the tracks. The idea of having a helper push from the back while you manhandle the seat bottom from the front sounds like the way to go. The upholstery is definitely in the way so you have to be careful not to tear the trim panels, or smear grease all over them, during the process.

[Sid Brain]

On my '58 I have had the seats in and out a bunch. The right one comes out simply by holding the adjusting knob up and pulling/pushing forward. The left has the little button, but it is easy to push with your finger if the right seat is out. (I guess the button is missing on the right one). A CAUTION! on mine at least, it is real easy to think you have the seat back in and secured 'till you lean back in it. (Ask me how I know) Double check to be sure the front is caught good on the rails. This can be a real pain if you have thick upholstery. The grease does seem to dry out in the rails sooner than expected. Good Luck.
Sid

[Steve Pierce]

Good point Sid. We had a Clipper not far from here get torn up because the seat was not latched properly and the pilot and passenger ended up in the back seat on take-off. Luckily only the airplane was hurt and it is flying again.

[bram]

Hi Bob
I have a 59 tripacer also and here is how I remove my right front seat to service the battery. Lift the seat adjust handle with the right hand, Push the seat forward with the left hand to its stop with the adjust lever held in the up position. Hold the seat forward while putting the right hand between the seats and pressing up on the lock button. If you then bump the seat forward with the left hand the seat will slide to the end of the rails and you can lift it out, rear first then forward to clear the front rails. Note that if you let the seat slip back a little the adjusting knob will have to be pulled up and the seat pressed forward and held forward while pressing the little lock button between the seats. To reinstall the seat, set the rear sliders in their slot all the way forward then set the front of the seat down. Raise the rear sliders(rear of the seat) and push forward a bit till the front sliders engage then push seat back till the rear sliders are in their slots on the frame. Push the seat back until the adjusting latch is engaged. PS it is easy to miss the front sliders when installing the seat so after the seat is in, pull up on the front to check.
Bob Ramsey N9663D

[Jeff J]

Just a thought on a helper to keep the pin from catching. I think something like a hacksaw or feeler gage blade would fit in the slot to keep the pin from catching and allow 2 hands to manipulate the seat or the freedom to get in the back and push if it's really stubborn.

I haven't lubed my seat tracks but I was thinking a brushed on lube that dries to a film may give better service than grease in the tracks. At the very least it would be cleaner and not attract dirt.

Jeff

[Tripod]

On my '58 I have had the seats in and out a bunch. The right one comes out simply by holding the adjusting knob up and pulling/pushing forward. The left has the little button, but it is easy to push with your finger if the right seat is out. (I guess the button is missing on the right one). A CAUTION! on mine at least, it is real easy to think you have the seat back in and secured 'till you lean back in it. (Ask me how I know) Double check to be sure the front is caught good on the rails. This can be a real pain if you have thick upholstery. The grease does seem to dry out in the rails sooner than expected. Good Luck.
Sid

Same with the one-piece bench seat in my '52 Tripacer. There's a guide rail in the center and it's easy to get the guide on top of the rail. Not a good thing when rotating. Other then that, the one-piece bench seat is easy to remove and replace once you get the hang of it. I just have to be careful not to punch holes in the fabric when moving it around into the guides and rails.

[Bob M]

Thanks Bram that was a good instuctional video...I could see it while you "spoke" good job
Bob

[skydogk]

Hey seat removers. Just a little tid-bit, to lube the rails / grooves on any airplane (except those airline style rails). Don't use grease! That junk attracts dust, dirt ...etc. making the seats stick. I recommend parafin wax or bar soap. For rails just wipe the bar over the rail. For grooves you might need to peel some flakes into the palm of your hand with a knife or piece of metal with an edge, then smear them into the groove with your fingers. You can kinda feel the soap "melting" into the metal. Be sure to treat all contacting surfaces, top, bottom, and sides.

This treatment lasts much longer than grease, doesn't stain carpet, and smells good to boot. It's an "old timer" trick this young buck learned years ago.

skydogk

[Bob M]

What about dry graphite?

[Sid Brain]

Another tid-bit, be sure to CLEAN the rails and seat rails real good before putting any thing on them. I have found that the "door ease" type sticks work well too. but maybe the soap is better. I have also found that it helps to lube them every six months or so. Mine slide easy now.
Sid

[skydogk]

Dry graphite works, but doesn't last as long. It also has a tendancy to leave a black residue on carpets etc.

skydogk

[dcflyer84]

had to remove front bench seat in my '53 Pacer to access battery (dead) for a jump start. Had a bit of trouble getting the seat out and back in. Now that it is in, it wants to move backwards without notice. Both rear track pins are in place and I cannot pick up the front of the seat, so I think the two side sliders are in place. The spring in the adjustment lever is fine, too. But, if any pressure is placed on the top of the seat back or any hip scooting, rotating the front of the seat upward slightly, makes the adjustment pin slip out and the seat move backwards. This was not a problem before i took the seat out. Must have done something wrong with re-install. Can you help a guy out, here, please? Thanks!

[Steve Pierce]

Dale, I merged your thread with another on the seat.

I have seen a few serious accidents as a result of improper seat installation so I took some pictures of the early bench style front seat.

I am guessing that you are not in the front "U" channel above the seat adjustment pin.
4812
4813

Also make sure this "V" shaped piece is below the angles in the fuselage on both sides.

4814

4815

4816

And that these rear pins are in the the channels on both sides of the fuselage as well.

4817

These are the five attach points of the front bench seat. I have seen each one installed incorrectly and it causes problems. I have also seen the ears on the center track spread out and cause the center of the seat to raise up. Alos seen cracked seat frames as well.

[Steve Pierce]

Some pictures of a cracked Clipper front seat.
http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2017&d=1295050084

http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2018&d=1295050102

[dcflyer84]

Steve,
Dude, you are on it! Your pictures spoke volumes and I'm pretty certain now that it is the center track that isn't 'in' properly. I knew the sides and rear rails were correct by not being able to move the seat straight up from those points. The center rail not being secured in place would explain the seat appearing to hold for a few hip scooches, then slipping out past the spring pin and moving backwards without warning. I knew better than to attempt to fly it in that condition. My daughter and I missed a big fly-in today because of this seat issue and not understanding all aspects of it. But, hey, I'll miss a fly-in any day in order not to bend metal or hurt myself or anyone else! Thanks for taking the time to post these shots--very helpful!
Dale

[Whiskey MIke]

Thanks to Steve P for the photos! For single piece bench seats-- If you can, take the seat covers off and take a good long look at how the seat actually fits in. It is worth knowing about, as a seat which falls out of place in flight will kill you. Steve Pierce's photos are very helpful. It took me quite a while to figure out my seat, but now that I understand it, it is fairly easy to install (Pacer bench type) It may be useful to wear gloves when removing and installing as it is really easy to beat up your fingers. The soap lube sounds a great idea. I was going to try window, door, and drawer stick lube, but never remember to take it to the airfield. You have to fit the rear pins down and in with the front of the seat ever so slightly elevated, and then bring the front of the seat down to level, to install the center front slide and 2 side bars. You have to move the seat ever so slightly forward again to place the center and side slides in place. All the while being careful not to let the rear pins slide up and out of their slots.It is tricky, but once mastered it becomes routine. Again, please be extremely careful, and certain that the rear pins are in their channels, along with the center and slides. If you don't have all three in place you run the risk of tipping over backwards on take off or in flight. -- I once had a front seat bracket failure on a PA-12 during a banner pickup and I can tell you that it is really difficult to tip yourself back up after falling over backwards in an airplane.

[dcflyer84]

There's got to be a great story behind that snippet, WM! Went back out to the hangar this morning and, sure enough, the center rail wasn't in the track, as I had suspected. Fixed it pretty easily and gave it a good test--all is well! thanks again for the tips, guys!

[Fliermike45]

I'm struggling to remove the right seat in my PA-22. I have read the AFM that tells me to release the seat forward and push up the protruding pin.
Having a real problem doing this, is there a simple way of doing this?
Help.

[walt.buskey]

Mike, there's a small spring-loaded (with a leaf spring) pin that needs to be pushed upward in order to slide the seat forward sufficiently to begin to lift it out of its track. See pics… That pin needs to be pushed up (and into/above) the seat sliding track. Once that's clear, the seat can be pulled forward enough to release it from its track.

It is a bit awkward to both pull the seat forward WHILE holding the pin up; sometimes a putty knife can help there.

Apologies for my explanation (it sounds terrible), but I hope you get the idea….

As an aside, I found that the push-pin had been completely removed from my pilot's seat. Not a problem, I guess --and it makes it a lot easier to remove-- as long as you don't forget to make sure the seat FULLY engages with BOTH edges of the track when you put it back in.

Walt


60616062

[Fliermike45]

Mike, there's a small spring-loaded (with a leaf spring) pin that needs to be pushed upward in order to slide the seat forward sufficiently to begin to lift it out of its track. See pics… That pin needs to be pushed up (and into/above) the seat sliding track. Once that's clear, the seat can be pulled forward enough to release it from its track.

It is a bit awkward to both pull the seat forward WHILE holding the pin up; sometimes a putty knife can help there.

Apologies for my explanation (it sounds terrible), but I hope you get the idea….

As an aside, I found that the push-pin had been completely removed from my pilot's seat. Not a problem, I guess --and it makes it a lot easier to remove-- as long as you don't forget to make sure the seat FULLY engages with BOTH edges of the track when you put it back in.

Walt


60616062


Walt,
Thanks for the tip, I can push the pin but it seems that I cannot get it high enough to release.
Guess I should look if I can raise the spring some other way with a tool.
Thanks,
Mike

[scottf]

Took me a while my first couple of times... best way I have found it to reach my left hand between the two front seats, and hold the button up... while doing this pull the seat forward and lift the seat slider knob with your right hand.

[walt.buskey]

OK, I'll bite, Mike… "Per Ardua Ad Astra"… RAF, or something else? (Just curious.)

As scottf said, the first time removing a seat (hell, the first several times…) can be a real exercise in patience, humility, and dexterity. Once you get it figured out, however, it goes quickly-- at least that's what my learning curve was like!

[Steve Pierce]

I merged this thread with an older one with even more pictures. Be sure to get it back in correctly, know of one airplane wrecked and another almost because the seat wasn't installed correctly.

[Fliermike45]

OK, I'll bite, Mike… "Per Ardua Ad Astra"… RAF, or something else? (Just curious.)

As scottf said, the first time removing a seat (hell, the first several times…) can be a real exercise in patience, humility, and dexterity. Once you get it figured out, however, it goes quickly-- at least that's what my learning curve was like!

Translates to: "With difficulty to the stars", yes I'm ex RAF, served from 1960 until 1973.
I worked on Comet, Brittania, Canberras and Victors.
That's where I caught a terminal case of the aviation disease.

[xqsme]

Just bought a Colt today! How do you remove seat to get to the battery?????

[rwdurham]

Search above right for "seat removal". That may be the "most asked" question from new owners. It was the first one I asked. You can only own a Colt if you have three arms and 16 fingers. :) Congratulations on your purchase! Post pictures when you get time.

[Philip Learn]

Congratulations on the new Colt. The rail for the Co-Pilot seat is on the left side of the seat. Pull the seat full forward then reach under the seat on the left side and you'll feel the rail and there is a small button protruding in the center of the rail. Push that pin up/in while pushing the seat fwd. once that is done the back has two rails which the back of the seat ride in and once your finally full fwd lift the back out of the rails. Now you can remove the seat and access the battery box. Hope this helps.

Rick is right you'll need more hands that can fit into small places. Just had my first annual on mine and its a tight fit working inside removing panels.

Phil

[Curly]

It also helps, if there is nobody around, to use lots of naughty words that start with F and B. Doesn't help get the seat out but relieves the frustration! :-x
Congrats on the Colt - great little aeroplane!

[mbond]

It also helps, if there is nobody around, to use lots of naughty words that start with F and B. Doesn't help get the seat out but relieves the frustration! :-x

I feel the same way about getting the right seat back into the tri-pacer.

[Jim Hann]

Congratulations on the Colt! Good luck with the seat, I agree with (and have completed) all of the comments above! :lol:

[Tripacer76D]

i feel the same way about getting the right seat back into the tri-pacer.

roger that!!!!!

[Steve Pierce]

Congratulations on the Colt. I merged your thread with another on the subject. Look at the previous posts and I think you will find lots of good information.

[xqsme]

Thanks!!!!!!!! Got it out. Gotta charge the battery now. I appriciate you'alls help.

[Glen Geller]

As the previous posts mentioned, be triple-certain you have properly RE-installed the seats, so that every sliding, clamping, holding-down part is CORRECTLY positioned. Sit in it and try sliding forward and backwards full travel a few times, it should move smoothly without binding, then lean back hard after each adjustment. Nothing more embarrassing that having the seat flip backwards when you rotate. Gets expensive and possibly painful.

Enjoy that new Colt, they are swell little airplanes!

GG

[Bob]

Someone showed me a special tool they made to slip in and release this pin. I can't for the life of me remember who it was or what it looked like. I will have to experiment a little bit.

In the first photo, is the button just about in center of photo, and is it on the RIGHT rail of the pilot's seat? Any tricks to get the seat AROUND the armrest on the left side of plane? I remember in my last PA-22 how much of a pain, and almost impossible to do without a helper. Getting seatbelts in and all on reinstall... This could sure use an upgrade. Also, is that rust on your seat frame? Is it common?

Thanks

[Bob]

These are NOT mutually exclusive I have found...


Ok, I'm new to shortwings and just found out that the Tri pacer front seat does not want to come out...do you have a trick or just cuss a lot?

[Bob]

Yes, mine does have a safety catch. The bugger is getting the seat to move all the way forward as it binds up on the tracks. The idea of having a helper push from the back while you manhandle the seat bottom from the front sounds like the way to go. The upholstery is definitely in the way so you have to be careful not to tear the trim panels, or smear grease all over them, during the process.

The ARM REST (just aft of the fuel selector valve) always seems in the way, and I'm considering removing it. My arm NEVER gets that tired anyway...

[Homer Landreth]

Just a note to all. Under the seat where you have your fingers and hands trying to dislodge the seat and press the pin at the same time is a pletoria of very sharp metal. I have taken a lot of those seats out and put them back in however I still pre-position gause and bandaids prior to starting a seat effort. When you run over your fingers or bang your hand on just about anything down there, it turns into a nasty loss of skin or a cut. :-( If you have an "assistant" pushing from the rear make sure you are both on the same page and he is not pushing when your hands are in a vulnerable place.

[Steve Pierce]

Also, is that rust on your seat frame? Is it common?
Upholstery glue.

Never had an issue with the armrest. I wonder if it has been moved from the original location.

[bstoney]

Homer, About 50 years ago an old man taught me to slide a small stubby screwdriver under the spring holding the pin. This takes the pressure off the pin and you can easily hold the pin so it will not catch. I had a small handle screwdriver just for this purpose.

[Old3pacer]

I have really enjoyed this thread!
When I took delivery of my Tripacer the Right seat was not secured correctly and kept sliding backward to the stops [AKA cessna]. But I was flying Left seat, so...no worries!
I took the seat out and properly installed it. The left seat was such a BEAR, that for about 2 weeks I flew Right seat. On many Tripacers, including the one I own, the armrest has been removed for the reasons stated above.

Anyone pinched the finger holding the button as you move the seat forward?? ;)

If I am alone, doing this, I prop a chock under the seat adjustment ball to hold it up and then climb in the back, grab the button and lean with my feet on the back of the seat frame.

[Bob]

The mission was to install a trickle charger terminal end connectors to the battery. Required removal of seat. I thought battery under left seat. No, it's on the right, but the master brake cylinder is there, and I think it needs some fluid. So while seat is out I'll do that too.

I managed, without interruption of dermis, epidermis, tendon or bone, and keeping all my fingernails to remove seats. It required a helper to hold the actual seat adjustment lever whilst I pushed the pin with a short tool. Once getting the seats (both because I was looking for battery, and it is under passenger side in front) I found lots of interesting things to review.

The previous owner (or someone along the way) had ALREADY installed a trickle charger connector to the battery, with proper fuses etc., which was my mission. So didn't need to do that, just didn't see the connector until I removed seats. Dark under there you know.

The fuel tank (Auxiliary) pump and connector equipment was under the right seat, forward of the battery box. It needed some lube, as it is actuated by a pull cable, and must be securely stopped (a spring seems inadequate) to prevent backflow once fuel is transferred. BTW it is AWESOME to do "midair refueling" and watch the right tank go from 1/2 back to FULL while flying. Putting that 8 gallons from under the rear seat to the right wing in about 15 minutes. Small bendix pump, but seems reliable.

The floormats contained a long accumulated collection of dirt, debris, and needed vacuuming.

Photos will follow.

Thanks for all the help.



Just a note to all. Under the seat where you have your fingers and hands trying to dislodge the seat and press the pin at the same time is a pletoria of very sharp metal. I have taken a lot of those seats out and put them back in however I still pre-position gause and bandaids prior to starting a seat effort. When you run over your fingers or bang your hand on just about anything down there, it turns into a nasty loss of skin or a cut. :-( If you have an "assistant" pushing from the rear make sure you are both on the same page and he is not pushing when your hands are in a vulnerable place.

[Bob]

So far no "Seat" accidents in Pipers, but once while climbing out in Cessna 172, the seat slid back about 5" and fortunately I didn't pull back on the yoke at the same time. Able to level out at altitude and fix seat. Guess Cessna seats have that a lot.

[rocket]

I'm sure I posted this before but I have had the seat pin come unscrewed and fall out all this while on takeoff on floats during the first rise of the hump phase. My hand was on the throttle where it belongs and I just pulled her to idle as I slid back.
It got my attention!
my left seat lives in the full forward position so I never move except to pull the seats for maintence. I do give every seat I get in an aggressive "Cessna butt wiggle" regardless and recommend you all do likewise.

Rocket

ps. I get mine in and out without assistance or bleeding but one must hold their tongue in just the right position and cross eyes also. Can't wait to try the small screwdriver trick posted up thread!

pps. A photo of said screwdriver in place with seat removed could help negate generations of 20/22 suffering

[Bob]

I have been at 5NK before. Worked at the Naknek Community (not Native) Camai Clinic 12 yrs ago or so. Nice community. Spent LOT of time walking around airplanes at airport and photographing them.

[Clayton Harper]

Years ago my wife Eloise worked in Treasure Island (Big Box Store) in Atlanta. She told one of her coworker that she drove to work. On learning that this women said "My brother's wife learned to drive and she done him wrong." I bring that up in this context, be
cause much the same thing happened to me when I tried to get my seat out of 31A to change the battery. Let this be a lesson.

[Gilbert Pierce]

So after you completely disassembled the airplane did you find the battery and change it?.f

[Clayton Harper]

So after you completely disassembled the airplane did you find the battery and change it?.fThat's my point. When you find a problem and another and and another what does one do? Ignore? Could I have over looked the finish falling off of the fabric? A old Frontier Pilot I was flying with told me experience, is when you have made all of the mistakes twice. It appears in my case...NO. Oh well.

[wyandot jim]

Man it looks like you need to buy a plane without an electrical system so you can have something to fly.. :-) :-)

[Clayton Harper]

Man it looks like you need to buy a plane without an electrical system so you can have something to fly.. :-) :-)
Good idea. Or without a seat over the battery. Or without idiots for Mechanics doing dumb things like not following STCs.

[rsrguy3]

Soooo...is this the flying one you bought or is it the one you were restoring?

[Clayton Harper]

Soooo...is this the flying one you bought or is it the one you were restoring?Sadly Both.

[Gilbert Pierce]

Buy a new one. They come with a warranty.

[Clayton Harper]

Buy a new one. They come with a warranty.
Gilbert, I enjoy flying, but I did that for a quarter century (a lot), I've been building and working on things for going on almost 3/4 of a century, I like it. My problem was not doing the research on the PA22/20 conversion. I'm like the old mule, I just "bow up and take it".
I like working on airplanes, always have.

[Gilbert Pierce]

Clayton, I was just yanking your chain. I know you like taking them apart and making them right.

[Clayton Harper]

Clayton, I was just yanking your chain. I know you like taking them apart and making them right.
Your son, you, and I have that in common. :) One of the many reasons I like you and Steve.

[rsrguy3]

I get it, I also have the same illness, I'm building fixtures for straightening fuse steel and splicing longs... So my dash 12 journey is officially under way. I can't wait to stretch dacron.

[Subsonic]

I'm just trying to get all my front nose bowl and cowl screws back in... It had a "mixture" of junky screws when I took final delivery not 6 weeks ago. Since then, I've changed out about 25 allen heads and other hardware store crap screws to original. Problem is not all the sheet metal lined up correctly. Top engine cowl had me puzzled until if figured out the center section was reversed 180 degrees. At least the previous owner could tell which end was the pointy end and got the left and right wing panels correct. Just the middle was wrong. Threading the piano wire back into those long hinges kept me out late. Really late and my wife called me at 1 am saying "where are you?" Oops. Now I took the wing tank cover off because one of you pointed out the innermost edge goes under the root fairing, not on top. That's when I found the mix of screws up there. I just took delivery of a Battery Tender 1.25 amp smart charger to hook up to my new battery, which is already showing signs of weak starting, I presume since I'm in the pattern trying to convince my CFI to let me solo this thing. Sixteen landings last Saturday, and only two were greased in where he said they were adequate. 14 were firm. Two of those were his from the right seat. So, I want to hook up this plug-in thing to the battery so I can quick attach the Tender and I know the right seat has to come out, which made finding this string fortuitous. Got to get the gas tank cover back on, get the battery tender hooked up and charged so I can solo soon, because winter is coming. I sort of like working on the plane. It needs things...been modifying lift strut end cuff/fairings to fit new fat Airframes Alaska sealed struts, etc. But I try to always leave it in a condition where I could get back in it immediately after opening the hangar door and fly it away. The wing tank cover being left off caused me pain to walk away from, but my wife called after midnight again. I have to keep this plane flying. If those sheet metal screws would stop backing out everywhere on the wing root fairings and tank covers, and stabilizer inspection covers, etc. I'd be happier. oh, just occurred to me.. how do I adjust my steering wheel er, yoke to be level, when in level flight. They're both like one chain link off to the left when flying straight and level. The mechanic had to install a Colt steering arm to satisfy STC for removing aileron/rudder interconnect per Piper drawing 14926. Did he mess up my yoke alignment? How do I fix it? I don't want to hijack this thread, but everybody should know how to take out and put back their seats safely now, so you guys need to help me fix my yoke position. Thanks in advance!

[Clayton Harper]

Subsonic,
As was mentioned here, I knew I had problems when I had to use a porta power to get 31A seat out. I have enjoyed this thread though. Start a new thread on you yoke problem, that might be as much fun.

[Jim]

Hi Subsonic,

Clayton had another good idea, starting a thread. Your yokes being out of level is like the steering wheel in your car, when it's not level you don't remount the wheel, you fix your alignment.

Here's a thread and to read through. http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/showthread.php?5328-Rigging&highlight=Level+yoke

[ysifly2]

...
pps. A photo of said screwdriver in place with seat removed could help negate generations of 20/22 suffering

I haven't tried a screwdriver, but rather my 'tool' of choice is a putty knife.
posted my description here: http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/showthread.php?8334-Left-seat-removal-PA-22-150&p=57682&viewfull=1#post57682 (http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/showthread.php?8334-Left-seat-removal-PA-22-150&p=57682&viewfull=1%23post57682)
"Kind of hard to explain, but I have found that a thin blade putty knife works great to make a ramp for the pin to run up. I slide the seat forward until it hits the pin, then back off just a bit. Then I reach up n under the seat with the putty knife and make a ramp from the seat rail against he 'bracket' that the pin hits... Then while holding that in position, slide the seat forward.
Seems to work for me better than trying to hold the pin up with my finger and then slamming it in the bracket as I slide the seat forward."

but indeed, a picture or two provides a lot more "words"... so here goes:
first picture... slide seat forward until stop pin is near the stop
second picture... tool of choice, your favorite flexible putty knife
third picture... tool in place, to create a ramp for the pin to ride up on, into the seat rail
fourth picture... tool rotated to compress the pin, when seat is slid just a little more forward than was in these pictures, it will stay in place to then active the seat latch lever while sliding seat forward, allowing the pin to ride up onto the seat rail.

Obviously, once the right side seat is out, it is very easy to access the pin and rail for the left seat, but I use the same method for the right seat by reaching under and feeling my way to position the putty knife 'tool'.

hope the pictures help show my method


Bryan

[PA-16]

The PA-16 Clipper is a bench seat and kind of an armful to get in and out, but not very hard, this pin mech you are talking about must be different than on the Clipper. I just pull downward on a pin under the seat on the frame that sticks up into one of 3 holes in the bottom of the seat locking it in one of 3 positions.. too close to the panel, way too close to the panel and way way way too close to the panel.. I think the people that designed the shortwings were short legged.

I also have two sets of rails on the sides, one set the seat fits in and another set I dont know what is for..have the seat out for the annual will post pics tomorrow of what I mean.

I have that not level yoke problem but with my stick, it's straight up and centered in neutral aileron position but the 16 on top of the stick is tilted.

[AKJurnee]

The PA-16 Clipper is a bench seat and kind of an armful to get in and out, but not very hard, this pin mech you are talking about must be different than on the Clipper. I just pull downward on a pin under the seat on the frame that sticks up into one of 3 holes in the bottom of the seat locking it in one of 3 positions.. too close to the panel, way too close to the panel and way way way too close to the panel.. I think the people that designed the shortwings were short legged.

I also have two sets of rails on the sides, one set the seat fits in and another set I dont know what is for..have the seat out for the annual will post pics tomorrow of what I mean.



I test fit my seat in the Clipper, holy cow is that thing heavy, like 25 lbs!!
I think the trick is to slide it JUST past the front seat pin and groove, then rotate up and aft out of the rear slides of the seat while the seat is folded. Basically turning the seat almost on its back coming out.

Yeah what are those triangle pieces for looks like rails for the seat but I didn't see the seat frame rest on those unless I missed something.

[Gilbert Pierce]

Those triangle pieces slide under rails to prevent the seat from tilting backward when you takeoff and dumping you in the back. As you rare back with the seat you pull the stick clear back and up comes the nose. It happens and sometimes it is not survivable.:icon_sad:

Always double check they are engaged and the pin is locked in place on the front slide as last step in installing the seat.

[Steve Pierce]

I also have two sets of rails on the sides, one set the seat fits in and another set I dont know what is for..have the seat out for the annual will post pics tomorrow of what I mean.



Look at page 3 of this thread. The pictures are of an early Pacer but the Clipper is the same just a bit shorter.

[Tailwind_Fan]

I know I’m bumping a zombie thread, but it seems related. I’m having a problem with the right side seat suddenly sliding back when the right amount of pressure is applied. The pin is a little sloppy in the bracket and I’m not sure if it’s original or something a previous owner or A&P made and installed. It uses two cottor pins, one above the handle and the second below. Any ideas on how to get the mechanism back to dead reliable again? Thanks.

Alana

[Steve Pierce]

I would remove the seat and take some pictures. The pin should fully engage.

[CTJER]

I found the seat removal to be technique sensitive. During my pre-buy the former owner removed the seats in what seemed like seconds. Lots of frustration when I tried at next annual. While it seems counter intuitive, I remove the left seat first. This gives better access, straight forward, to the lock pin. I firmly move the seat full forward with some degree of vigor. Push the pin up and giggle the seat. Works for me. Helps to have the trim set so that the yoke is full forward.

Saw a Colt ad recently that showed a bench seat as opposed to individual pilot/co-pilot seats. Did early Colts come from the factory in this configuration?

Jerry

[Tailwind_Fan]

I would remove the seat and take some pictures. The pin should fully engage.

I’ve already removed the pin, but can easily put it back in and take some photos at the airport in a few hours. Maybe a better question might be: What is, or is there a preferential way to fix a seat locking pin with enough slop to release the seat? Because the spring is intact, as I have to apply pressure to remove the upper cotter pin, and the pin itself is relatively whole. It seems that the slop in the pin hole is the cause of it releasing.

Alana

[Tailwind_Fan]

So I was able to discuss this with the field’s resident A&P Bill. It seemed fully engaged, but occasionally the fully engaged pin would allow the seat to skip. I recorded a video to show what we found. Comments from one and all are welcome.

https://youtu.be/ipDgJ-qoZgo

-Alana

[Steve Pierce]

There should be a spring inside that keeps the plunger up. The left one is factory, the right one was modified with a bolt on the bottom instead of the shaft with the cotter pin hole. Left seems good, right doesn't engage as far. This is a link to photos and videos of one I have here.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/QBM26N2dhucZwyELA

[Tailwind_Fan]

There is a spring and it’s compressed to install the top cotter pin, I thought about not putting the top cotter pin in which would allow the spring to push the pin up about 0.10 inches, but Bill wouldn’t hear of it... I’m thinking it just isn’t extended enough and is too loose in the hole. I’m taking my calipers to measure hole size vs pin size. Bill doesn’t think the slop makes any difference, while I’m concerned that it does. But he can sign it off as repaired, I’m just the person who owns the airplane, oh and over thinks everything like a proper rocket scientist would.

[Glen Geller]

It uses two cotter pins, one above the handle and the second below. Any ideas on how to get the mechanism back to dead reliable again? Thanks.


I have never seen one with two cotter pins in the latching pin, one above and below the lever (handle.)
My Tri-Pacer and the other five in our club all have just one cotter pin, as shown in Steve's photos.
Are both seats the same arrangement, with a cotter pin above and below the lever?
Something seems wrong there.

[Steve Pierce]

I would look at the drawing and these pictures and go from there. I don't see how this assembly could slip, it engages the holes in the seat bottom with no slop.

[Tailwind_Fan]

So I measured the hole size and the pin. The pin measures 0.375” while the hole is more like 0.385-0.390 While I was there I removed the pilot’s seat, to add brake fluid and also looked at that side too. It only has one cottor pin under the handle. So I talked to Bill this evening. I told him about the pilot side only using one cottor pin, and that I think we ought to leave the top pin out on the co-pilot side. He’s going to work on it this week. Either way, I’m going to get this fixed.

-Alana

[Glen Geller]

Alalna,
The left side pin sounds like it is the correct part, and the right side pin (two cotter holes) seems funky.
Are they both the same overall length, or more importantly the same effective length, from cotter hole to business end of pin? If you remove the odd cotter and let the spring push pin to latched position, are the pins exposed the same distance (within 0.010")?
A .375 diameter bullet pin in a .385~.390" hole seems reasonable. After 60+ years of service there will be a little wear in the hole but it should not be a problem.
I think you are spending too many calories on this, far more than Piper did when they designed the thing!
Just remove the obviously superfluous cotter and if the exposed ends are about the same length and engagement, and the actuation of seats seem that same, get flying!

GG

[Tailwind_Fan]

Hey Glen,

You're totally correct, but that's my nature. Plus, my flight instructor has stated he won't fly with me until I get this fixed and our on site A&P won't just remove the pin....

-Alana

[krwill]

Just my .02 but a simple logbook entry "remove erroneously placed cotter pin from seat latch" done by a private pilot owner seams to be the answer. But then again the instructor comment means you likely don't have your certificate. Not to mention the politics of pissing off your local A&P.

Cheers
Ken

Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk

[Tailwind_Fan]

Yes, Student Pilot Owner just doesn’t have the same ring to it. Believe it or not, but Student Pilot is actually a certifiable rating now.

[Glen Geller]

Hey Glen,

You're totally correct, but that's my nature. Plus, my flight instructor has stated he won't fly with me until I get this fixed and our on site A&P won't just remove the pin....

-Alana

Switch the latch pins to opposite seats, with the erroneous cotter removed.
Or have local welder fill the hole and then clean up the surfaces on a grinder.
The spare cotter hole is below the load-bearing portion of the latch anyway, and will not impact strength or security.
Jeez, you'd think this was an engine mount on the Space Shuttle.

Just looked at Univair, I think this is it:
Front Seat Stop Plunger, PA-22,
SN 3218, 3387 and up ...............................................120 32-002 .......... $85.07
Jeez, maybe it is an engine mount on the Space Shuttle.

[Steve Pierce]

I would see what the drawing CD shows for this assembly and compare to what you have.

[EdH]

Sooooooo………. I was playing around with the front seat, (left) and of course it broke. Somewhere in the mechanism itself. the shaft I think is broke, seems spring and everything else is still up in there, tried to screw it back in, but it isn't having it. Now the seat won't budge, and it is all the way back. Any ideas on how to get the plunger to come down so I can get the seat out?

[Tailwind_Fan]

Sooooooo………. I was playing around with the front seat, (left) and of course it broke. Somewhere in the mechanism itself. the shaft I think is broke, seems spring and everything else is still up in there, tried to screw it back in, but it isn't having it. Now the seat won't budge, and it is all the way back. Any ideas on how to get the plunger to come down so I can get the seat out?

I just had to deal with this myself. I put the seats in for a few minutes and on removal the co-pilot seat had the plunger pop out of the handle and fully into the seat rail. Our field A&P and I tried a small hole above the plunger and a pin drift to push it back down. When that didn’t work, it became clear the only way was out the top. So the hole was enlarged and what remained of the pin was extracted with one of my personally favorite tools, an o-ring pick. I manufactured a new plunger to replace the old one that was sacrificed.

It’s now had the seat plunger housing pushed up, and a new pin installed with about.050” longer on the top, and 0.2” longer pin on the bottom.this way if both split pins come off there’s still a nub of the bottom pin still sticking out the bottom to grab with vise-grip pliers.

[Tailwind_Fan]

Just to add insult to injury... the pin I made failed at the upper hole. I purchased the univair sourced plunger, then noticed it requires an AN3 bolt to act as the pin... I purchased a couple of AN bolts from Aircraft Spruce... So when I got the official part, it’s just rough stock 3/8 diameter with a taper on one end and a 0.5 deep 10-32 thread hole on the other... even has a pantina of surface rust on the rough stock surface.