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Throttle Pusher
03-18-2010, 06:38 PM
The other day I was talking to another A&P about my reserch in to up grading my PA-22.
The question on witch engine came up and he said that for 160 hp you dont need a
O-320-B an A model will do, All you have to do is put the high compression pistions in the
A model and you get the 160 Hp.
Is there a STC out there for this or is this just backyard mechanics?
Once again Thanks
Ken

Lownslow
03-18-2010, 08:31 PM
My suggestion is to stick with the 150HP. You just don't get that much more from the extra 10 worth the extra cost and reduced fuel efficiency. The auto fuel STC is only good on the 150 HP, not the 160 ( I believe I have that right).

Lou S.

Gilbert Pierce
03-18-2010, 08:50 PM
Peterson has an STC for the 160. You need 91 octane fuel. The higher compression ratio of the 160 makes it more efficient. Look at Lycoming's performance charts.

Steve Pierce
03-18-2010, 09:01 PM
If you have a wide deck case you can up the compression no problem using the 160 hp pistons however if you have a narrow deck case you need the cylinder base plates and longer thru studs in the case.

Throttle Pusher
03-18-2010, 09:46 PM
Sounds like a easy inexpensive 10 ponies.

Isnt the fuel stc only for auto fuel that dosent have alcohal in it?
Since all auto fuel has it in it dosent that make the stc ... well a mute point.
Ken

Steve Pierce
03-18-2010, 09:47 PM
We still have two stations here that have car gas without alcohol.

Throttle Pusher
03-18-2010, 09:57 PM
Washington state, no such luck,even the airport station doesent carrie it any more. The refinery wouldnt gaurantee
that it wouldnt have alcahal in it.
ken

Stephen
03-18-2010, 10:14 PM
Ken, Chevron and COSTCO are still not using alcohol in Washington, at least in Skagit and the San Juans. I think they have delayed implementation of using alcohol....in WA.

Stephen
03-18-2010, 10:15 PM
If you have a wide deck case you can up the compression no problem using the 160 hp pistons however if you have a narrow deck case you need the cylinder base plates and longer thru studs in the case.


Steve, is this true with the early A models??

Steve Pierce
03-19-2010, 06:35 AM
The early A models are usually narrow deck engines which have to have the longer studs which are expensive.
"Lycoming engines manufactured before 1964 (1971 for 540 series and 1975 for 720 series) were of narrow deck design. These engines used cylinder base hold down plates and internal-wrenching type cylinder base nuts. After these dates, Lycoming engines became "wide deck", Wide deck engines have regular hex type cylinder base nuts and a thicker cylinder base flange (approximately 3/8" thick). The thicker cylinder base flange makes the wide deck engines slightly wider than the narrow deck engine. The switch from narrow deck to wide deck did not change the model number of the engine even though cylinders and crankcases are not interchangeable. Another method you can use to distinguish narrow deck from wide deck is by the engine serial number. If the serial number ends with the letter "A" it is wide deck-; e.g. L-82374-27A."

This is from the "Sky Ranch Engineering Manual" by John Schwaner on the operation, failure and repair of piston aircraft engines.


(http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data//500/medium/Image018.jpg)

Gilbert Pierce
03-19-2010, 09:53 AM
We have a refinery here in Memphis, Valero, that supplies all of the fuel in West Tennessee. They also own ethanol plants to adulterate their fuel and get a government subsidy. However, there is enough demand for unadulterated fuel that the local Exxon wholesaler buys 8,000 gallons of real auto fuel at a time without ethanol. I buy it off his loading facility for 10 cents a gallon more then the local quick stop sells the adulterated stuff for.
He is doing a pretty good business with this suppling the yard equipment and antique equipment owners with fuel.
Same story in Little Rock, AR. I was able to buy ethanol free fuel there by calling the local fuel distributers and finding one that provided ethanol free fuel. I suggest you look up the fuel distributers in your area and call them to see if they distributing ethanol free fuel. I have found 3 of them here, one in Tennessee, one Mississippi and one in Arkansas.

CantFindMind
03-19-2010, 10:42 AM
I talked with one of the major fuel distributors and found out that King, Pierce and Snohomish counties here in Washington are all using ethenol in their auto fuel. He suggested I fly up to Mount Vernon to fuel up.

Gilbert Pierce
03-19-2010, 11:54 AM
Unfortunately some areas in the country require ethanol. In Tennessee the State does not require it.

MrWayne
03-19-2010, 12:18 PM
The other day I was talking to another A&P about my reserch in to up grading my PA-22.
The question on witch engine came up and he said that for 160 hp you dont need a
O-320-B an A model will do, All you have to do is put the high compression pistions in the
A model and you get the 160 Hp.
Is there a STC out there for this or is this just backyard mechanics?
Once again Thanks
Ken

The narrow deck engines use all of the same parts except the pistons, the cylinders and the cylinder mounting studs. Two additional hold-down plates are added to each cylinder. The bases of the cylinders are different as well. The low compression cylinders do not have hold down plates over the mounting studs that act like a large washer to spread out the load. These cylinders have a spot-faced area at each cylinder hold down stud. If you were to use these cylinders with the hold-down plate there would be a void between the top of the cylinder flange and the bottom of the hold down plate directly over the hold-down nut. This is not an acceptable practice.
Your question, can I just switch the pistons? I am told that many experimental aircraft have such engines that work well. On the other hand, Lycoming added those plates for a reason. The engine was not quite strong enough. If you planned to operate your plane in Alaska or any other place that gets real cold and at sea level then a definite NO is your answer. Under these condition the BMEP (brake mean efficient pressure) in your cylinders is considerably increased. This will add considerably more stress on the cylinder hold down flanges. This is already the weakest point of the narrow deck design and probably why Lycoming brought out the wide deck design. The short answer is All of those parts mentioned need to be replaced to gain 10 HP. legally.
To my knowledge (I have not researched this one as thoroughly) the wide deck "A" and "B" engines are the same. The next generation engines used on the Cherokees are definitely not. The "D2" engines are 150 HP. and have a much smaller front main bearing than their 160 HP. counterparts. This is what I have learned on this subject. Sounds simple Not quite so. Hope this helps you. WAyne

Throttle Pusher
03-19-2010, 04:06 PM
The only reason I would go this direction is if I found a 150 hp eng at a good price and then convert it.\
So If I understand you correctly I need to make sure its a wide deck,and not a wide deck-D2
Ken

51-pa22
03-19-2010, 10:26 PM
150hp or 160hp
Steve is right on the Wide Deck, changing from 150 to 160 or back from 160 to 150 by only changing pistons.
on the narrow deck, i have been working that issue for some time.
Lycoming sold 0-320 narrow deck "standard flange" with both longer case studs and short studs.
Attached are a pair of images for new Superior Narrow Deck cylinders.
notice the machining around mounting holes
now with longer case studs one can use either cylinder With hold down clamps and either the low compression or the higher compression piston.
But I think MrWayne may be correct on the space below the hold down clamp on using hold down clamps on a spot faced cylinder.
With the shorter case studs one can only use the "spot faced" cylinder and the lower compression piston and 150 hp
now to change the case studs from short to long will cost about $1k extra.



http://165thbdhr.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/smokin.gif
The First image is a Millennium Cylinder SL32006N-A1
The second image appears as a Millennium Cylinder with a Lycoming style spotface tring to confirm
The third image is a Millennium Cylinder SL32000NA-A1

MrWayne
03-20-2010, 12:28 AM
From what I gather, either an O-320 with no prefix letter or an "A" or a "B" prefix are listed in the type certificate data of most of the Tri-Pacers. Any of these engines may be installed in these aircraft with a log book entry. The "B" engines are the 160 HP. If the engine is not listed in the TCDs for your plane installing the engine in your plane is the easy part. Getting the feds to buy it off and bless it for flight again can take years and cost way more than the engine cost new. For that reason, either buying someones already approved STC or buying a "B" engine off of an Apache is to me the most practical way to go. I believe it was Gilbert that said he used an Apache engine. There is good reason for this. The Apache has a very expensive recurring A/D on her props. There are many of these planes sitting on the ramps rotting away because they need $20 or $30K worth of props. If you really want the 160 HP. That is the first place I would look. WAyne

Steve Pierce
03-20-2010, 07:35 AM
The front main bearing is different between the A series and B series narrow deck O-320 as well. There is an engine shop in Alaska that has an STC to convert a wide deck 150 hp to a 160 hp.

GeronimoDriver
03-20-2010, 01:38 PM
I can't contribute to the Lycoming question other than to say my Father has a Cherokee 140 that has been changed to 160hp by STC. How it was done I do not know. As for the Apache prop thing, it os not that expensive, I just had my right prop done for $1200. It is an inspection every 500 hours or 5 years, whichever comes first. A full overhaul is about $3500 per prop from Precision Propellor, and the Apache is not the o ly plane with these props on them... Apaches are just like Shortwings, underappreciated by those who don't know them well, and much loved by those who own them.

Can I put any engine (or equipment) listed on the TCDS for a plane with a log entry? I assume you need a 337 but not a field approval? Just curious if I could upgrade to 250hp on mine. I have the low compression 235hp O-540's and am told I can just change the pistons to get 250, so the question is relevent to the discussion...

Jeff J
03-20-2010, 05:08 PM
I can't contribute to the Lycoming question other than to say my Father has a Cherokee 140 that has been changed to 160hp by STC. How it was done I do not know. As for the Apache prop thing, it os not that expensive, I just had my right prop done for $1200. It is an inspection every 500 hours or 5 years, whichever comes first. A full overhaul is about $3500 per prop from Precision Propellor, and the Apache is not the o ly plane with these props on them... Apaches are just like Shortwings, underappreciated by those who don't know them well, and much loved by those who own them. ..

I think the prop AD cost varies by quite a bit. I was quoted $2700 to have the AD done once and I was repeatedly reminded it did not include parts nor would it constitute an overhaul. I've heard claims as low as $800. The prop that use to be on my PA-20 actually cost the new owner $1600 through a "friend" to confirm it was safe to put on an experimental.

Jeff

51-pa22
03-20-2010, 08:05 PM
Driver
just took an I0-540 from an Aztec (250hp) to put on a Comanche 260hp.
now you will need to check very very closely and I would also check with one of my local DARs/DER on this.
The one thing we found was different counter weights.
This is driven, so I have been told, by the prop mfg. Hartzell in this case.
Now you are correct in that a simple piston change will indeed up the ponies from the O-540 235 to 0-540
From the docs I have 0-540-B1A5 is the 235hp 6 cylinder low wing piper cub twin motor.


235 hp @ 2575 rpm with 80 octane using 7.20:1 compression ratio.
Can you even get that bad of fuel to burn?
O-540-B1A5 = Same as -A1D5 with low compression A1D5 uses
250hp @ 2575 100/100LL 8.50:1
235 2400
and the O-540-A1D5 is a standard engine for the PA-23 serial 27-????


so from what I understand my DER/DAR told me.
change fuel label, fuel ports, update your POH, change pistons, and enter it as a log book entry.
There is a GREAT person at Air Salvage of Dallas
the FAA Aviation Maintenance Technician of the Year 2009
I would Give him a cal to confirm. www dot asod.coml

Do your homework and I think it is just a logbook entry for YOUR low wing twin cubhttp://165thbdhr.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/smokin.gif


now YOUR mileage WILL I am not the authority, FAA is.
again
Do your homework but if you NEED to change pistons......... Get the BEST your can. :D

MrWayne
03-21-2010, 12:40 AM
If I sounded like I was bad mouthing Apache aircraft I most definitely wasn't. They are a fine very under rated aircraft. That said, there are 3 derelict Apaches on my field. I have the same A/D on my Navion. The first time through there were parts as well as the work. That cost $2,250. 5 years later it was $750. This year it was $1,000. I know that A/D well. If you wish to eliminate the A/D a new prop is well over $10,000. The prop A/D has been the final straw for a sizable number of Apaches. The ones that were on the low end with owners on a slim budget. It really is a shame. They are similar to my Navion in that they fly great, they haul one heck of a load, Loads of room, very forgiving, wide C/G range, and not quite as fast the competition.
On your other question, your plane and the TCDs. If your TCDs specify more than one engine and you can change pistons and LEGALLY convert your engine to the other and you comply with all other requirements specified for that engine installation it should be a minor modification and thus a log book entry. If your I/A is in doubt about the legality of the mod. contact your local FAA office

GeronimoDriver
03-21-2010, 04:01 AM
Thanks Wayne and 51-PA22, I appreciate the info! No worries Wayne, I am used to defending under appreciated planes. I tend towards the more eclectic side of aviation, if only because I can't afford more common planes. As a result I find myself defending some types when I hear my friends talking bad about them. My first question to them is "Well, have you ever flown one or are you just repeating something someone told you?". Ercoupes and Tomahawks fall in this category for me also. Great little planes.

Navions are sweet, I have never flown one but I like the looks of the old ones. ( I guess they are ALL old now...)
I hear you on the prop AD, I figure ~$1000 per side every couple years for the AD, with the overhauls when needed. So far both are good and will calander time-out just because I don't fly it that much. I can do a lot of AD inspections and still spend less than new props.

Back to the OP, would you like me to ask my father about the 160hp STC he has on the Cherokee? I think it os on an O-320 "A" something or other...? I know it was converted from 150hp.

Aaron

MrWayne
03-21-2010, 11:14 AM
For my part, I looked into a 160 hp upgrade before i started flying to Mexico. There are to few av-gas suppliers in Baja so burning their alcohol free car gas is necessary in my Pacer. A friend looked into the STC to upgrade his O-320 d2XX 150 HP Dynafocal mount engine. He found that he could do it but the STC required he keep his cruise prop and thus not let the engine wind up. Thus limiting the HP. The reason the STC holder said is this engine has a smaller front main bearing. The STC covers several wide deck 150 HP engines. Only the ones with the larger bearings have no added restrictions on the converted engines. A person must read carefully the fine print on the STC. At the time I looked, there were no STCs to convert narrow deck engines. I have not again looked at the engine parts manual to verify that the main bearings are different for the 150 and 160 HP narrow deck engines. If they are different I missed that one. WAyne

51-pa22
03-21-2010, 11:37 AM
if there is a difference in the front bearing, I Need Help reading my parts book.
I only see 1 engine are there other ND O-320s?
http://165thbdhr.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/smokin.gif

Stephen
03-30-2010, 09:17 PM
The front main bearing is different between the A series and B series narrow deck O-320 as well. There is an engine shop in Alaska that has an STC to convert a wide deck 150 hp to a 160 hp.

Steve, this company http://www.crairmotive.com/ Copper River Airmotive in Alaska has an STC to install 160hp engines in Pacers....but, it is not clear to me about upgrades of 0320-150 to 160 hp on "A" models. Is there an STC? The Copper River people were helpful to me on a project I recently did.

MrWayne
03-31-2010, 10:44 AM
if there is a difference in the front bearing, I Need Help reading my parts book.
I only see 1 engine are there other ND O-320s?
http://165thbdhr.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/smokin.gif

Thanks 51-PA22, I have misplaced my O-320 parts book so could not look that up. The only other item that could stop one from legally converting a 150 to a 160hp engine without an STC is the engine cases. Once the longer or shorter cylinder studs are installed and/or data plate is installed they will have different part numbers. If the bare case has the same part number it should be legal to assemble a 160 hp engine with only a log book entry as all of the part numbers are correct for that engine.

51-pa22
03-31-2010, 01:19 PM
Stephen,
I believe to go from an O-320(no suffix) or an O-320-A 150 hp to an O-320-B 160hp is only a log book entry and possibly a bunch of bucks.

That said, while i am not the expert on this, did ask this before and from what I understand,
changing an O-320(no suffix) or an O-320-A 150 hp to an O-320-B 160hp via longer case studs, cylinder hold down plates on the appropriate cylinders, with higher compression pistons......
is a log book entry also will require new placards for fuel. This is for Narrow Deck O-320 Not Wide Deck

This is because an O-320(no suffix) = an O-320-A1A.
O-320-A1A 150hp @2700 80 octane fuel 7.00: I compression ratio
O-320-A2A same as A!A with fixed pitch propeller
O-320-B1A 160hp @2700 100LL fuel 8.50: I compression ratio Same as -A I A but high camp. ratio
O-320-B1A uses cylinder hold down plates also check heavy vs light piston pins

http://165thbdhr.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/smokin.gif

Now, changing the case studs during case overhaul I was told is about $1000.00 per Crank Case Services in Sand Springs, OK (rough estimate from memory)

So I dont believe an STC is needed to go from 150hp to 160 only a log book entry entry.
Check YOUR narrow deck engine. If it was ever modified and has hold down plates, it is not too bad, cost wise.



For my 1951 PA-22-125
With many thanks to JohnW with his post 02-25-2009 "STC Pacer 135 to Pacer 150"
and Steve for their never ending great work and support.

with it's orig O-290D a change to O-290D2 is under 10%... a log book entry.
A change from an O-290D or O-290D2 to an O-320 requires the Wag-Aero STC STC SA1-274


MrWayne
I had this ready to post several hr ago and was confirming with IA and DER before posting.
now remember, your mileage WILL vary. I can only suggest that you do your homework and work with Good people such as the folks here

51-pa22
03-31-2010, 05:36 PM
MrWayne
from my copy of the 1970 PC-103 1988 update,
I see only 2 case part numbers for conical mount Standard Flange (Narrow Deck) O-320 engines.
now without searching, I will bet these part numbers have been supersededbyLycoming since they no longer make narrow deck engines and they will make a narrow deck from a wide deck casting.

However, I read the 2 part numbers are
78217 for O-320-Axx and 78226 O-320-Bxx

now from the data Lycoming supplied there are 5 different cylinder stud and case stud part numbers different.
It appears the "Spot Faced Cylinder" O-320(no suffix & A)
use
Item 2, 2 each 69377 STUD, 1/2-13x9-11/16 in. long-STD
Item 3, 2 each 69377 STUD, 1/2-13x9-11/16 in. long- STD
Item 4, 8 each 50-14 STUD, 1/2-13x1-3/4in.long -STD
Item 5, 16 each 1025-B STUD, 3/8-16x 1-1/2in. long STD
Item 6, 2 each 69376 STUD, 1/2-20x10-17/64in. long-STD with service Bulletin No. 273.


While the O-320-Bxx with 8 cylinder base flanges
use
Item 2, 2 each 66734 STUD,1/2-13x9-7/8 in.long-STD --->75154 =SL75154 =$56.49 via AERO
Item 3, 2 each.66734 STUD, 1/2-13x9-7/8 in. long -STD same as item 2
Item 4, 8 each 50-15 STUD, 1/2-13x 1-7/8 in. long-STD 50-15 = SL50-15 =$7.67 via AERO
item 5, 16 each .38-13 STUD,3/8-16x1-5/8in. long-STD =38-13??? = SL38-13 = $4.89 via AERO
Item 6, 2 each 69679¢ STUD, 1/2-20 x 10-21/32 in.long-STD with service Bulletin No. 273. ??? 69679 =$165.74 via AP Areo
69679-P03 =$114.36 via AERO and 69679-P07 = $71.86 again via AERO
and 8 cylinder hold down plates 69531 from little to way too much. last set I saw on ebay went for about $10.00

Bulletin No. 273 Modification of Crankcase Center Main Bearings Support to Incorporate Body Fit
Thru-Studs, Mandatory at Overhaul. 72698-P07 on O-320-B and some O-540 narrow deck cases.
Cant find any info on 72698-P07:mad::frown:

Now this is confusing.
SB 273A only refers to O-320-B and others and not to O-320(no suffix & A)??? Bet this Is listed elsewhere.

Now I cant seem to locate my casting numbers to verify the castings are the EXACT same. I would be willing to make a nickel bet they are.http://165thbdhr.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/smokin.gif

Steve Pierce
04-01-2010, 06:16 AM
I ran across this different front main once but can't seem to find reference to it now. I will keep digging.

av8ing
04-01-2010, 07:52 AM
There is another recurring AD you should be aware of that only applies to O-360s and 160 HP O-320s. It is AD 98-02-08 and can be read here: http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/E7B86DE103CB30E78625684D006644B5?OpenDocument&Highlight=98-02-08

Basically you have to inspect the forward 3.5 inches of the inside of the hollow crankshaft. Depending on the results you either reinspect in 5 years, 100 hours, or replace the crank. One other option is to coat the inside diameter and you never have to inspect again. You should read through it though just so you know what you're getting into if you upgrade. Why it only applies to 160 HP I don't know. Piper put out a mandatory service bulletin to do the same inspection but it included ALL O-320s. So why the AD just specified 160 HP is a mystery to me.
Here's the service bulletin:
http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/publications/service-bulletins/pdfs/SB505B.pdf

51-pa22
04-01-2010, 08:33 AM
I ran across this different front main once but can't seem to find reference to it now. I will keep digging.

I just hate it when that happens.
:mad:

And I know what it was.
Right now I have been digging and digging and cant find my copy of the Piper Service Memos.
found all of my lycoming SIs SLs and SBs most all of my Piper SB and SL but no Service Memos.

Going over and performing final inventory of all paperwork to present as partial documentation for experience for obtaining another cert.

AND STILL no PA-XX Service Memos!
http://165thbdhr.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/smokin.gif

Steve Pierce
04-01-2010, 09:00 AM
Piper Service Memos are found in Univair's PBLPA Service Aids, Bulletins, Letters and Memos for Piper PA11- PA22. http://univairparts.com/shopping/product_info.php?products_id=7166 Working on posting all these to the site.

51-pa22
04-10-2010, 11:25 AM
just noticed the Date on your post
April Fools

http://165thbdhr.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/smokin.gif
Enjoy S&F
all 3 birds still grounded for various reasons

Care package arrived yesterday from Graham Whoo Hoo!!!
Christmas
Say many thanks to Cathy

Lownslow
11-16-2013, 08:32 PM
Considering the question of converting an O-290D-2 to an O-320. I am finding no STC for retrofitting the case to O-320 specifications, so the crankcase shop will likely perform the modifications per Lycoming drawings. Do they also provide a new engine dataplate? has anyone modified or replaced the accessory case on an O-290 to include the crankcase vent?

Lou

gliderman
11-16-2013, 11:15 PM
Lou

I just researched the swapping of an accessory case to include a vent-I too am tired of the oil puking out of the front vent on a 0-290.I went to an engine shop and he laid the 2 different accessory cases and a 0-320 crankcase on a bench : unfortunately we can't do it as the oiling of the idler gears on a 0-290 are fed from a gallery in the accessory case. if we were to swap our accessory cases to a 0-320 style this gallery isn't there as the idler gears are fed from a gallery in the crankcase.
sigh

Shane-o

Lownslow
11-17-2013, 06:20 PM
Thanks, Shane. Anybody know how the dataplate gets updated or replaced?

Lou