PDA

View Full Version : Shoulder Harness Installation



Pages : [1] 2

av8ing
05-05-2010, 07:11 AM
I'm about to install the shoulder harnesses from Wag Aero for the front seats. Has anybody done this that could pass along any tips to make it easier? It looks pretty difficult to get behind the headliner.

TBird
05-05-2010, 02:10 PM
We have not installed these, however attached is pics showing installation of shoulder harness.

TBird
05-05-2010, 02:18 PM
Has anyone installed the AMSAFE Restraint Systems (Shoulder Harness & Inertia Reel) from Univair? If so do you have pics? We are planning on installing these during our rebuild and would appreciate any info available. Thanks

Tadpole
05-05-2010, 02:52 PM
I'd love to see an inertia reel system as well.

Rick-CAS
05-05-2010, 02:54 PM
I have been in a Tri-Pacer that had a Wag-Aero harness installed. My complaint is that since I am 6' 1" I fly with the seat all the way back. The shoulder harness is like a headrest at that point since the cross member in the roof it right above the seat. Then during landing you have to loosen it to reach the flap handle to the point it will not provide any protection. I am looking at using a Cessna service kit for the 170-175, and welding attachments above the aft portion of the rear windows of my Pacer. This is a diagional belt across the pilot like in your car. This would allow a better location for an inertia reel too, although I have not planned to install one at this time. This would be a hard job on a completed plane but, a bolt in installation might work with a little effort.

N4567A
05-06-2010, 06:31 PM
When I had the Tripacer, I used my right foot to bring the flaps up to the first notch, where I could then use my hand for the rest if I really felt it necessary.

av8ing
05-10-2010, 08:15 AM
I installed the harnesses this weekend and I am not happy for several reasons. The biggest deal is that I am now convinced that the few intallations I have seen were done with the healiner removed. I tried making a nice little slit in the headliner and performing the surgery through that little hole as well as having limited access through the nearby zipper. Just the tension that was put on the zipper from my hand being in the zipper hole ripped the headliner at the bottom of the zipper. Also each little slit I made for the harness ended up ripping and now I have two holes the size of my fist. And believe me, I'm no haker! I was very careful but the hole just grew, mostly while tring to get the clamp over the tube then getting it squeezed tight enough to get the bolt through the hole, which took plyers to do. I had pre-fabricated the cool little plates that are in the picture Tbird provided, but they wouldn't even come close to covering the damage now.
And now after jacking up my headliner to install these shoulder harnesses, I don't even like them. The lap belts that they mate to, like most standard lap belts only have a quick adjust on one side. But you need to have the latch directly in the center of your lap for it to be effective. If it latches off to the side, that is where the shoulder harness mates and you end up with on shoulder harness chaffing your neck anf the other side falling off of your shoulder. So no big deal right? Just adjust the length of the lap belt so that when you cinch it, it is centered on your body. That works, but now when you have differing size passengers you have to make that custom adjustment each time. And for me, that varies a lot since my son flies my plane too and he is much thinner than I am.
Another thing I don't like about the shoulder harnesses is that where they have sewn pieces together, there are what I call burrs that chafe my neck and also catch on my clothing when I lean forward to grab the flap handle.
So here is my consumer report evaluation. If you're going to install shoulder harnesses, wait until you plan on having the headliner out for some reason or just plan on taking it out for the job. I guess you could consider hiring a laporscopic surgeon to perform the surgery through that little hole, but that could be costly :-). But no matter what, don't get the Wag Aero harnesses. Besides all that I have already said about them, one other gripe is that you have to keep them so loose so you can reach the flap handle, I'm not sure they would do any good if you ever need them. Buyer beware!

richardb
05-11-2010, 10:10 PM
After purchasing my 1951 PA 22-130 Tri Pacer (N828A) last year the first thing I did was install shoulder harness. I purchased the strapes from Aircraft Spurce and the stainless steel mounting brackets from Altee Dodge. I can only speak for my self and tell you I had very little problem with installation - just take your time and be careful with the head liner. When operating the flaps - from a modified flap extention handle - I loosen the straps just a little so I can reach the flap handle, no big deal and I still have plenty of support in the event of an unexpected landing turning bad without picking my teeth out of the instrument panel... :>)

The shoulder harness is an excellent investment in safety in exchange for any discomfort.

Best Regards
Richard

av8ing
05-12-2010, 09:20 AM
Do you have a vinyl or wool headliner? I have the wool liner and it began to rip at the base of the zipper the minute I stuck my hand through the zipper hole (insert dirty joke here):tongue:.

smcnutt
05-12-2010, 09:37 AM
I've not put shoulder a harness in my plane yet but it's pretty high on the list. The flap handle issue is why I've always leaned toward installing the inertial reel setup. Although it adds significantly to the price tag, I would think it would be worth it.

I have the wool liner and it had a few holes in it. I bought some clear thread and a small curved needle to sew it back together. I was pretty impressed with myself how good it looked when I was done. However, most of mine were along seams. I think they should install one 4ft long zipper in headliners going front to back. Doing anything thru those small zippers is nearly impossible.

TBird
05-12-2010, 11:43 AM
Since we are doing a total rebuild we will only consider the inertia reel. Already the money pit is getting deeper but we believe that the inertia reel is the way to go. Will post pictures as the installation progresses.

cammons3
05-13-2010, 08:38 AM
Since we are doing a total rebuild we will only consider the inertia reel. Already the money pit is getting deeper but we believe that the inertia reel is the way to go. Will post pictures as the installation progresses.

Frank,
If you're still seeking inertia reels setup, contact Eddie Trimmer (eddie@trimmeraviation.com). I distinctly remember he had them setup in his Pacer. Good looking installation.

Steve Pierce
05-13-2010, 09:01 AM
Eddie Trimmer's inertia reel installation. These look like the Hooker Harness inertia reels.

tnowak
05-14-2010, 02:06 AM
Anyone know what the diameter is of the Vagabond fuselage cross tube which is located ABOVE the rear edge of the parcels shelf? I am fairly certain it is 5/8" OD but can't easily check due to fabric etc. Looking at fitting my shoulder harness attachment to that location.
Tony N

d.grimm
05-14-2010, 04:04 PM
Tony,
Mine are attached to the rear spar cross-tube for what it's worth. They were there when I got the plane. My plane came from the insurance company after being flipped over, I can still see the dents from their heads in the fabric headliner, but no blood or dented up instrument panel so they must have worked.
Dave

JohnW
05-14-2010, 04:15 PM
The tube you describe as overhead, above the back wall of the baggage compartment (the back wall is angled back at the top...so this cross tube is approximately 3-5 inches AFT of the back wall, with the airplane in the "leveled" position -I would ESTIMATE)) is only 1/2" O.D. It is p/n 11567-42. According to the drawing, it is .035" wall thickness. It is ALSO SAE 1025 mild steel tubing, NOT 4130!

This is "marginal" as a mounting point if you are going to locate a (TWO, actually!) single point attach bracket "inboard the cluster" ("out about two-thirds along the tube, for each side") for any normal-sized adult. If you are trying to keep the harness "pull-off point" directly in line with the center of the seat -as for a "Y" harness that is one belt, wyed off for two belts, you need to consider if you are looking for "full protection" from the strap(s) or are only looking to "use up some energy" in a forward crash. It would DEFINITELY "slow down" (decel an occupant's) forward motion, but is more than likely going to yield considerably (possibly actually SEPARATING) if "deployed" with a full-size adult as the occupant. But would it "stretch a mile before it rips an inch"??? The "CAR3 requirement" required "no noticeable deformation in structure at a 9G load". Two FAA-sized 170 pounders (ignoring the part of the "load" that the seat belt actually would "take" would be 340X9, or THREE THOUSAND SIXTY POUNDS! The 5/8" O.D. cross tube next forward (which is awfully close to "directly overhead" your neck and spine, which bothers many people...it tends to chafe the legs of the harness into the sides of your neck...but if you desire a nifty little headrest for taking a little nap in cruise, it's PERFECT!) only becomes "acceptable" to the modern standard when you "apply" the correction to the G-load that DOES take the belt's portion into consideration. What that formula actually IS, is outside my memory...but HOW MUCH load to you REALLY think that 1/2" dia. .035" wall tubing WILL actually "take" without "permanent deformation", eight inches inboard fromwhere it is attached??? Probably not the best candidate for a simple (wrap-around) steel P-clamp (or just threading the belt around there WITHOUT a clamp)!

I LIKE that position, though...on my Vagabond, I have a a pair of clamps around this 1/2" tube, and 1/8" aircraft cables attached to the aft bolt hole on each side (one cable eye on each "side" of the bolt on the aft side of each clamp out to BOTH the longeron tabss, the harness itself bolted through the front hole in these clamps). In an attempt to be "perfectly clear"... both sides of the two aft cables from each seat location attach to EACH upper longeron at the next aft cluster, so the harness load will be "passed through" the clamp on the 1/2" tube, and "anhor the load" at the next aft cluster. That is two cables per position, four cables total, each "side" attaching to BOTH tabs, one on each upper longeron). This "adequately" restrains forward movement of the warm body strapped in there, and guarantees that I won't "plant my face" into that ornery-lookin' instrument panel ya sit behind. Not very "inviting" when considering doing a "faceplant" (not that ANY of us looks forward to trying that!). These "tabs" are BEST installed during a recover by welding, but you COULD add a couple P-clamps around the longeron itself, or even on the "side, vertical" cross bracing right up near the cluster (of the NEXT station aft of the belt attach clamp). You COULD, according to AC-43.13, actually wrap an aircraft cable "loop" there, and and even use a clevis to attach the "diagonal cables" to each "loop".

That "all said", ANY improvement you might make in restraining the occupants in a heavy accident is specifically looked upon as "improving the survivability", and smiled upon by FAA for "these older airplanes". In the Real World, as long you are still around to see "how bent" that unsupported 1/2" .035" wall cross tube "got" if and when you needed it, then you can consider yourself as having "won" that bet. Using the "unsupported" 1/2" dia. .035" tube would probably NOT satisfy the requirements for a Part 21 Certified "new" airplane", however. I did my "cable trick" WAY BACK before the Advisory Circular that smiles on shoulder harnesses was written (and got some "ribbing" for being a sissy for installing shoulder harnesses at all. This was "before it was a popular idea". Now, you wouldn't even need to do the load calculations to get it Field Approved. As it is, YOU "make the bet" if this would be adequate, and you hope you are right. But...ANY improvement IS an improvement. I went with "the best bet I could come up with" (and several attach methods will work, I just did it when I was recovering, so MY tabs are welded in.

There's as many ways of skinnin' a cat as there are people a-skinnin' them.

Steve Pierce
05-14-2010, 05:07 PM
I would attach the shoulder harness to the 1" rear spar carry-thru tube.

JohnW
05-14-2010, 07:05 PM
I'd say I agree with that Steve, IF you use an "H" style harness instead of a "Y" style harness. You might just get satisfactory operation out of the "Y", if you are relative short... I'm 6'2" (and a fraction) and with the STC'd WagAero [type] "Y" harnesses, the "web" where they are tied together to the single anchor strap literally rests against where my bald spot should be ('cept none of me Pappies had the "skating rink" back there, and I don't expect to). Yet my Darling Better Half (standing tall at 5'2.25" in 'er stockinged feet) looks at me like "Tall people got no reason to live" -and we all know that saying goes: "SHORT PEOPLE got..."- when I waffle over being constantly rubbed. Doesn't bother her a BIT. And that is with the 3-bar slide JUST AS HIGH up against the 1-slot attach bracket as it can go. So, the cutoff point for not chafing a groove in both sides of yer neck falls SOMEWHERE in between. The "H" style belts add two more attach points that you shouldn't really NEED (not to mention another pair of slots in the headliner), but then you have the same thing with cables aft of the next crossover back; them's just the Facts O' Life. Love it or leave it. So, there's really more than just a "casual disagreement" amongst those that see this as an issue, and those that don't. I can chuckle and say my Wife and I represent the diametrically opposite sides of this philosophical argument (altho' there ARE always "other ways to skin this cat"). On skis, I wear my heavy parka anyway (bit I don't cotton to the suggestion that I operate with EITHER skis OR parka, in the warmer months, TYVM!!!), and the tall collar (with or without hood attached) gives my neck time off from the belt edges, and a dandy headrest to relax mah head on. In shirt sleeves, it's torture to wear that type of shoulder harness when mounted on the rear spar carrythrough. Looking for some sheepskin booties to slide on the lower harness belts for the Summer. (baaa-aaaah -hold still, little sheepie...this won't hurt a bit...what? oh, don't you worry your little head about these boots!)

I got a feeling this accounts for the general disagreement about Wag's "comfortability" status (which by my observation runs just about 50/50, for and against), and the two "sides" never hit on the other's "experiences". Nope. "Tall people got no reason to mount a "Y" harness on the spar carrythrough"!

Steve Pierce
05-14-2010, 09:50 PM
Yea, I have to wear a collar or they rub my neck. I think my dad's are 4 individuals. More comfortable.

tnowak
05-28-2010, 02:27 AM
Thanks for all the feedback. The only "problem" I see with using the "1" rear spar carry through tube" is lack of access. Can't see how I can fit a pair of clamps without cutting away quite a bit of fabric "head lining" (don't want to cut holes in the fuselage top fabric!). At least I should be able to get to that 1/2" tube above the rear edge of the parcels shelf by removing the shelf.....

Will get back to you later with questions when I have digested all the good info you have provided.

Regards
TN

Steve Pierce
05-28-2010, 06:56 AM
Cut the fabric and then make a patch or come up with an ecstatically pleasing cover. I would not trust a 1/2" tube to hold anything.

stevesaircraft(Bri)
05-28-2010, 11:34 AM
1: Buy our skylight STC.
2: Remove fabric to install skylight.
3: With fabric removed, install inertia reels at these locations.....
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs529.ash1/31052_396135060215_79219185215_4717654_2987125_n.j pg

4: Weld in attach brackets for skylight
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs589.snc3/31052_396135070215_79219185215_4717655_3916941_n.j pg

4a: At this location
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs569.snc3/31052_396135075215_79219185215_4717656_503666_n.jp g

5: Patch fabric, install headliner and trim
6: Install skylight.

All kidding aside....I really agree that the shoulder harness needs to be installed on the larger cross tube..

Brian.

nicka
05-28-2010, 11:43 AM
Just out of curiosity has anybody ever considered mounting a bracket of some kind to the seat back structure to mount the inertia reel to. The lap belts mount to the floor, but if the shoulger harness w/ an inertia reel were mounted to the seatback it would be a lot more comfortable coming over the back of the seat. They mount that way on a lot of other airplanes.

Lownslow
05-29-2010, 06:06 AM
Nice pics, Thanks. Don't mean to beat a dead horse, but looking at the inertia reel installation, it appears that they can be readily installed with the headliner removed (without the skylight), and the headliner re-installed (with sewn cut-outs)? Am I seeing this accurately? I need to have my vision checked. My wife says I don't look to good.

Lou S.

Steve Pierce
05-29-2010, 06:45 AM
Maybe we can get Don to repost his pictures that got lost from this post when we changed the forum software. http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/showthread.php?5161-CLIPPER-HEADLINER/page2

Frogdad
05-29-2010, 04:05 PM
Here are the photos.

Clipper Driver
05-29-2010, 06:16 PM
Last year, I replaced the single front seat belt on my Clipper with individual seat belts and added shoulder harnesses. Quite a bit of head-scratching involved in the installation, but I eventually worked it out, and I’m very happy with the results. Here are some notes and photos:

- My belts and shoulder harnesses are from Hooker Harness, and based on their Commercial system:

http://www.hookerharness.com/aviationcommercial.php

- Scott McPhillips of Hooker worked with me to provide exactly what I needed (he is familiar with the Clipper), and I couldn’t be happier with the belts and shoulder harnesses. The webbing is relatively soft and much more comfortable than most shoulder harnesses. The junction of the “Y” is high enough that it doesn’t hit my neck (but I’m short). There are adjustments on each side of the seat belts, so the shoulder harnesses remain centered, and the adjustments are near the buckle so they can be easily reached. Here is what Scott said he would provide: “The seat belts will have the end fittings sewn in and the shoulder harness will attach via a 3-bar slide. The seat belt adjustments will be at the buckle and connector and not on the side of the seats.”

- I was able to do all shoulder harness installation working through the rear zipper.

- I made plastic pieces (grommets) for the shoulder harness to pass through. First, I sat in the front seat and used a needle and thread - with the thread tied around the rear spar carrythrough tube - to figure out where the shoulder harnesses should pass through the headliner. It's a trial and error effort to poke the needle through the headliner and bring the thread over your chest in the same manner as the chest harness to figure out where the shoulder harness needs to go through the headliner to prevent distortion of the headliner when the shoulder harness is snug. Of course, one of the tubes supporting the headliner was just where the shoulder harnesses needed to go, but I routed them just behind the tube, and the location worked out fine. When centered on the front seat occupants, the shoulder harnesses miss everything near the tube and they are fairly close to the side of the fuselage, thus complying reasonably well with FAA guidance to attach the shoulder harnesses near a supported end of a tube. After determining a satisfactory location for the grommet on the pilot’s side, I marked the point where the thread passed through, then duplicated the location for the right front seat.

- The headliner is sandwiched between a top and bottom grommet. The top and bottom grommets are screwed together, and at the same time, glued to the headliner with fabric cement. It’s important to glue and screw the grommets in place before cutting the slit. Once the glue was dry, I cut the slit, then wrapped and glued the excess around the slot in the upper grommet.

- The shoulder harness simply wraps around the rear spar carry through tube, and is semi-permanently adjusted and held in place with the 3-bar slide. Side to side motion is prevented with hose clamps and waxed cord that is used for tying wire bundles and for parachute tacking. The final step is to tack all the webbing plies in place once the 3-bar slide is adjusted to prevent any slipping of the webbing through the 3-bar slide.

- The inboard seat belts are fastened to the tube just behind the front seat using two U-brackets made from 0.080-inch by 1.25-inch 4130 steel. The belt end fittings overlap, so spacers are needed to stagger the fittings so one passes over the other. The smaller screw passes through a piece of Tygon tube to keep the brackets in position. The Tygon tube and tape on the fuselage tube provide a buffer to prevent metal to metal contact. Take care there is no interference with the elevator cables. The right bracket (inboard left belt) may need to be relieved a bit to clear the diagonal tube just ahead of the elevator pulley bracket.

- I was originally concerned that I would not be able to reach the fuel selector valve with shoulder harnesses, but I can if they are loosened up just a bit.

I hope this description is helpful to those who haven’t yet made this significant safety improvement.

TBird
09-09-2010, 11:45 PM
Front seat Shoulder harness Inertia Reel Installation on our '57 PA-22-150
Installed inertia reels using F.Atlee Dodge front attach brackets P/N 3232-1 special order for 1" dia rear spar carry thru tube. Installed AMSAFE Restraint System P/N 4022-1-061-2396 (2 ea.) front only. Lap belts attach to std. Piper attach points. Pictures attached. Believe reels will be above head liner when installed.
Frank Rush

Steve Pierce
09-10-2010, 06:33 AM
Looks great, thanks for sharing all the information and pictures. I need to order those parts for mine as well.

smcnutt
09-10-2010, 09:41 AM
If you don't mind me asking, how much did the Inertia reels and belts cost?

TBird
09-10-2010, 10:41 AM
If you don't mind me asking, how much did the Inertia reels and belts cost?

The shoulder harness assembly from Univair was about $315 per seat assembly, includes reels and belts.

670x
09-11-2010, 11:51 AM
Does anyone know if it's possible to add this without recovering the airplane?

Steve Pierce
09-11-2010, 12:20 PM
I have done it on a Covered PA14. Pulled the headliner back by the rear window and made some slits. Could pull it back at the rear door on a Pacer.

Curly
09-11-2010, 07:46 PM
Frank - I have the same reels and have been told by others that they tend to rub the neck a bit when mounted on the crosstube as you have.
I would be interested to know if you have a similar problem?

TBird
09-11-2010, 07:59 PM
Thanks Curly for the info. We'll let you know how it turns out. We have a looong way to go with this rebuild.

Curly
09-12-2010, 02:26 AM
Frank and Theresa - I know exactly how you feel! We joke about 90% done and 90% to go but I think it's spot on.

I hope you don't get the same question I get over and over and over "when's it going to fly?"
Some of my friends think I am a bit pedantic - but I like everything to be spot on. If that means it takes more time then so be it. When Patsy is finished and ready to fly, I would like Steve or JW to be able to look at the aeroplane and not find anything that was not up to their standard.

d.grimm
09-12-2010, 07:06 AM
Curly,
Do what I do, tell them it will fly on Thursday. What Thursday, I have no idea.
Dave

Steve Pierce
09-12-2010, 07:23 AM
I have flown a couple of airplanes with lambs wool covers installed over the shoulder harness "V" so they don't rub your neck. Works well.

I don't even talk about when my projects will be done. :confused:

d.grimm
09-12-2010, 07:57 AM
Well I don't usually either, except when it's been sitting in the hangar for four months looking like it is ready to fly.
Dave

Steve Pierce
09-12-2010, 08:04 AM
That has got to be frustrating.

Lownslow
09-12-2010, 07:26 PM
Tell me about it. What looks like a month is usually 6. Got my biennial done this past week in a span can. But we are making progress and having fun. Can't wait to get the Tripe in the air and then the tailswagger.

Lou S.

TBird
09-13-2010, 10:34 PM
[QUOTE=Curly;36507]Frank and Theresa - I know exactly how you feel! We joke about 90% done and 90% to go but I think it's spot on.

I hope you don't get the same question I get over and over and over "when's it going to fly?"

We purchased this Tri-Pacer as a project in 2005 and just this year we have started to work on it. We were using all our extra funds paying a flight instructor so I could get my private, which I accomplished in Oct last year.An old lady learning to fly takes time you know. Anyway we are working on it and Frank is verrrry meticulous so slow is the word. TR

Curly
09-13-2010, 10:52 PM
Theresa - Well done! OLD is only a word - my dear old Mum, 87 years young has just taken to a computer like a duck to water.

I phone her every night using Skype on the computer (she's 7 hours driving away) and when I suggested we should get her a laptop so we could use video as well she was a little hesitant. However we now talk and see each other and where the phone call used to be 5 minutes or so they are now 30 minute calls. She did insist that I not call before the designated time - she needs a few extra minutes to do her hair, put on makeup and make sure she has her "best" dressing gown on - she's gorgeous!

As far as Frank being slow - remember it's the journey not just the destination!

Frank Green
09-14-2010, 01:39 PM
When I was doing my 22 and I would get that question I would say a year ago, then 2 years ago, then 3 years ago and so on for a # of years till it was done....a year ago and now I'm finally doing an annual again.

Steve Pierce
01-02-2011, 09:45 PM
Drawings for the AmSafe inertia reel harnesses.

rwdurham
04-27-2011, 04:21 PM
Hi Frank, did you end up installing these? Just contacted Univair about them and apparently they are STC'd for Cubs but no STC for Tri-pacers. If you did install them, would like to know what you think.

Thanks!

Steve Pierce
05-03-2011, 01:30 PM
Not aware of an STC but according to this FAA document none is needed. http://www.pierceaero.net/techdata/rsh.pdf

DeltaFlyer
05-17-2011, 10:10 AM
I have been going over the 5 or so threads on shoulder harnesses with inertia reel and still have a few questions. I like the Wag-Aero style as opposed to the Hooker, they just look like they won't chafe as much. Frogdad's photos above look exactly what I want, I just don't want to have to go through the hassle of custom sewing the Wag belts on the inertia reels. Steveaircraft, are the photos of your system above the same as Frogdad's?
I really want to get these installed before some trips this summer...DF

rocket 204
06-07-2011, 07:40 PM
does anyone have a picture of the brackets to install the shoulder harness to the tube above the head i bought a set of belts i assume that it wraps around the tube and then the belt bolts on to it thanks Rocket204

Gilbert Pierce
06-07-2011, 08:42 PM
I wrapped the shoulder harness around the rear spar carry-thru and attached it with 3 bar slide. See attached drawings. The 3 bar slide was provided by Hooker Harness with the shoulder harnesses.

Fliermike45
06-07-2011, 10:08 PM
2750

Here is the diagram that came with my PA-22 Shoulder Harness STC from Wag Aero

Frank Green
06-08-2011, 06:39 AM
This is a Wag Aero kit taken while I was installing the headliner. After I had the covering on and finished gluing the sides of the headliner I cut a small slit in the wool and stretched the brackets thru so that's all you see on the inside.

rocket 204
06-08-2011, 05:36 PM
thanks guys very helpful Rocket204

Clayton Harper
06-09-2011, 07:06 AM
Do any of you have a picture of "Inertial Reel" shoulder harness attachment fittings?

Grantmac
06-09-2011, 10:54 PM
2750

Here is the diagram that came with my PA-22 Shoulder Harness STC from Wag Aero

I hate to ask, but how much did that whole STC run you for both sides? I figure its one more thing to tick off the list and I like the looks of those brackets over the cloth loops.

-Grant

Fliermike45
06-10-2011, 07:16 AM
Each shoulder harness/seat belt assembly with STC was $165.00 (per side)

Steve Pierce
06-10-2011, 04:28 PM
Hooker has a harness set that has centering straps and can be had in an "H" pattern instead of a "Y" which is a little easier on the neck for around $200 each. Wag Aero belts drive me crazy when I go from Lee who is 7 to a big a guy in the right seat and trying to get the belts to center up without having to pull the seat out.

Curly
06-10-2011, 06:24 PM
Steve - I am also concerned about a Y belt rubbing on the neck, as most people who have them comment on the same thing with various fixes - wool covers etc.

I am putting Amsafe inertial reels in which prevents the use of the H belt so am stuck with the Y. Amsafes fitting instructions suggest an angle from the shoulders to the reel mounting point of 30 degrees from the horizontal. When you draw a "test dummy" on the fuselage drawings and project the angle back, the mounting point needs to be about 12" aft of the rear wing attach tube which is normally used. This would move the junction of the belt V aft and hopefully move the belts out from the neck area.

(Going to do a few tests with me as the "test dummy" to see if that's right - it's also gotta work for the co-pilot and as you know she's not much bigger than Lee - petite but powerful! :sweatdrop:)

I am still cogitatin' how to do that but initial idea is to weld a short tube from the middle of the tubes over the passenger compartment to each corner of the wing attach tube and a small mounting plate for the reel at the apex of the formed V. I understand I will have to get this STC engineered but wotcha reckon?

Clayton Harper
06-10-2011, 06:39 PM
Go Curly Go.

Steve Pierce
06-10-2011, 06:39 PM
Here is how Univair does it on the Super Cub. Heavy but works.
27632764

Gilbert Pierce
06-10-2011, 06:59 PM
Steve - I am also concerned about a Y belt rubbing on the neck, as most people who have them comment on the same thing with various fixes - wool covers etc.



I had the problem of the Y type shoulder harness rubbing on the neck, especially my wife did not like it. I had an aircraft upholstery repair station convert them to the H type. End of problem.

PeterL
06-10-2011, 09:22 PM
Has anyone had experiences with the shoulder strap that attaches to the side of the cabin, (like a car)?

The Colt I flew last week had one and found it very nice.

PeterL

andya
06-10-2011, 09:54 PM
If a inertia real is not used could the Y junction be moved up to near the headliner to correct the neck rubbing?

Steve Pierce
06-10-2011, 10:08 PM
Has anyone had experiences with the shoulder strap that attaches to the side of the cabin, (like a car)?

The Colt I flew last week had one and found it very nice.

PeterL

Maules are that way.

Curly
06-11-2011, 12:17 AM
Yeah Andy - I looked at that and I reckon it would.

My problem is my bum is too far from the ground so I need the seat all the way back (and I have also done Steve's seat back extension) which means I have a problem reaching the flap lever. Hopefully the reels will solve that problem (reaching the lever - not the long legs.) I have flown a C.....a with the retractable sash - works ok - just like a car, but doesn't have the "macho" look of a full harness :wink:

Grantmac
06-11-2011, 01:11 AM
It looks like nobody makes an STC'd harness for the PA-16 anyway. I will have to get it approved on my own.

-Grant

Steve Pierce
06-11-2011, 08:25 AM
It looks like nobody makes an STC'd harness for the PA-16 anyway. I will have to get it approved on my own.

-Grant

Grant, none needed. Read this. http://www.pierceaero.net/techdata/rsh.pdf

Grantmac
06-12-2011, 12:12 AM
Grant, none needed. Read this. http://www.pierceaero.net/techdata/rsh.pdf

Well that just got made priority. I'll just do a loop of fabric around the rear spar carry-through for simplicity sake.

-Grant

smcnutt
07-15-2011, 11:03 AM
Time to re-open another 'Shoulder Harness" thread. I want to do the inertial reel style harness so the Wag Aero is out because they only have the fixed type. I've been checking on all the variations that other people have brought up in the past such as Cub Crafters, Hooker Harness and Amsafe. Amsafe passed my info off to another company (saying they don't sell direct) and I was contacted by Don at Alpha Aviation (http://www.alphaaviation.com/Cessna205206210.html). They only do a diagonal shoulder harness but didn't know about putting one in a Pacer. Not being very familiar with the internal tube structure behind the interior fabric, I have no idea if there is something possibly around the door posts that their reel could be clamped to. Based on their website, they attach to the grab strap points in a Cxxxxxxna. Anybody willing to chime in here?

By the way, I really don't want to disassemble the whole plane to put these in.

Here's a picture of their system in a spam can.
http://www.alphaaviation.com/images/Belts/img134.gifhttp://www.alphaaviation.com/images/Belts/img11.gif

Curly
07-15-2011, 07:43 PM
Patsy had shoulder harness installed when I got her. The upper end was attached to a light metal bracket that was fixed with clamps to the rear wing attach cluster.

I will dig the brackets out of storage tomorrow and photograph them for you. I will also go through the logbooks to see if the brackets were installed under an an STC, field approval, or "just installed".

From memory they were very simple to install and could be fitted by loosening the hood lining just above the window line.

smcnutt
07-16-2011, 11:01 PM
That would be great if you could dig those up. Thanks

Curly
07-17-2011, 01:32 AM
Attached are photographs of the shoulder harness anchors.

There are 3 attach points - the main one is a 5/16 at the apex of the triangular piece. This attaches to the bolt that carries the aileron control cable pulley (see Page 1F6 of the PA22 parts manual. Item 23 p/n 41001-00 - 2.3/4" pulley) and the other two are for a 3/16 bolt and adel clamps to the tubes.

These were manufactured locally - the upper and lower plate and joiner are .35 thou 4130 and the 2 inch wide strap that the belt actually bolts to (not real keen on the 1/4" floating lock nut) is .65 thou 4130. and fitted by a log book entry.

(I seem to remember Steve or Andy had an FAA doc that would allow these to be manufactured and fitted there)

Steve Pierce
07-17-2011, 06:58 AM
I think the structural clamps like FrogDad used and Cub Crafters uses would be the easiest.

cammons3
12-19-2011, 10:02 PM
Just received this from Hooker Harness today...

We can make the system with the inertia reel, but we do not have the bracket for the installation.
Scott McPhillips
scott@hookerharness.com
Hooker Custom Harness, Inc.
324 East Stephenson Street
Freeport Illinois 61032
BTW, Santa brought the Vag a set of shoulder harnesses, courtesy of Hooker!

Bob Mac
12-19-2011, 10:39 PM
Thanks for all of the good shoulder harness info on this thread. I am among the many working on the last 10% that takes 90% of the time. When people ask me when it will fly I say, "when it is finished". At my age the finisher may be someone else. On-the-other-hand, when my mother was 92 she had the highest average ror the year in her bowling league. So......maybe!

Bob

robertsailor
06-19-2012, 06:00 AM
The Pacer I'm buying doesn't have shoulder belts but what it does have is a beautiful headliner, one of the nicer jobs I've seen. I know that to add shoulder belts I'd need to cut the headliner and install the metal fittings. The headliner is wool and its stretched tight so my concern is that when I cut it its going to start to come apart and I'll have a mess on my hands. I thought of glueing a doubler in place and cut through that but I'm still not sure it would work. I'm sure some of you have done this without ruining the headliner. I'd appreciate some guidence on this upcoming project.

Zac Weidner
06-19-2012, 06:06 AM
I put in shoulder belts and an Airtex wool headliner at the same time, and I just cut a slit in the headliner, barely big enough for the belts, then I made a little "skirt" to sew over each of the slots and come down 4 or 5 inches on the belt. Sewing would be very difficult with the exterior fabric in place, however.

robertsailor
06-19-2012, 06:38 AM
Spent some time reading older threads on this and it doesn't look that good for doing this and still saving the headliner. There were lots of complaints on the straps rubbing and many wanted to install the retractable type so they could operate the flaps. There were a couple that mentioned the single belt similar to automobiles that mounted on the side similar to a Maule but I couldn't find any pictures or descriptions of how they would work on a Pacer. Is there any ifo out there right now on the side mounted single shoulder belt?

Roger Allyn
06-19-2012, 03:06 PM
I installed the Wag-aero shoulder belts as Steve reccommend on the rear cross member. We did not have any problem with tearing (headliner in place).I just loosen the right shoulder strap a bit for the flap handle and a small tug tightens it.
If automotive inertia reels are an indication, they will not let you move forward to the flap handle with even mild turbulance. Maybe someone can comment on inertial reels and turbulance?

Pacer 24C
06-19-2012, 03:52 PM
I installed the Y type shoulder harness by fabricating some U clamps from 1" by 1/8" steel that go around the crossmember and just come thru the headliner and that come snug but not crushing tight went the triangle belt fitting is attached - I too have an old old headliner that will rip if you just look at it - I think if I replace the Headliner - I will just remove the triangle fitting and clamps and take the belt tail right around the crossmember and put an adel clamp on eash side of the belts to prevent side movment- keep it simple and light - I too just leave the belt loose to reach the flaps - better than nothing and could be snugged up if you have time in an emergency.(atleast the passenger will benefit)

nicka
10-20-2012, 09:49 AM
I was just reading through all of the old posts about shoulder harness inertia reel installations. I already have shoulder harness's installed but no inertia reels. I am considering inertia reels because I have to loosen the one strap to reach the flap handle etc. All of the posts have a ton of information on physically installing them, but there is little info on comfort or functionality of the inertia reels after install. I have a skylight so install is no big deal I was hoping to get feedback on how well they do or don't work. Are the "y" styles or "h" styles better? How about some info on flying with all of these?

Steve Pierce
10-21-2012, 08:20 AM
I merged the shoulder harness inertia reel threads so it is easier to find the information. I fly with the V type harness and sometimes they rub the side of my neck and bug me but normally not. I have used the lambs wool covers and they work great. I have not seen the H style in an inertial reel. I am interested in what others experience is as well.

sophistical
06-27-2013, 12:15 PM
This has been a very helpful thread for me as I researched shoulder harnesses and so I thought I'd share a picture of how mine turned out. The plane is still at the shop doing the annual so I can't speak to the comfort of the Amsafe units but I thought I'd share some comments:


The parts are what Tbird specified earlier in this thread; F.Atlee Dodge front attach brackets P/N 3232-1 and AMSAFE Restraint System P/N 4022-1-061-2396. The price seems to go up each year so I just pulled the trigger; it's unfortunately almost $1000 in parts at this time.
If you order the Atlee Dodge brackets from Univair, call and mention that you need the 1 inch units as the parts in their online store are smaller. Rick called me back and corrected me as he knew that the Pacers need the 1 inch parts and not the part that I found through their online catalog.
My A&P didn't think there was room above the headliner to install the ratchet assemblies. I had purchased (thanks to an article in SW News) a Porsche trim piece (# 911-555-615-01) for the cut in the headliner and they used it, but still mounted the ratchet outside the headliner. It doesn't look too bad although I'd prefer it be hidden. He apparently called F.Atlee Dodge and they had the same feeling on the Pacer's (that it wouldn't fit above the headliner)
The "action" of the ratchet assemblies is very smooth, I am very glad I went that route over fixed belts.

​5060

gliderman
06-29-2013, 09:51 AM
Hi all

Ok....which system has an STC. I have the interior stripped out and now is the time to install shoulder harnesses.
337 and field approval aren't kosher this side of the 49th.....

rwdurham
06-29-2013, 01:15 PM
My BAS- AMSAFE shoulder harnesses came with an STC. I bought them for a Tri-Pacer and a Cherokee and they are great shoulder harnesses. In fact, you don't even notice they are there and you have full movement. Problem is . . .EXPENSIVE!

Steve Pierce
06-30-2013, 07:23 AM
These are STC'd.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/faabelts2.php?clickkey=6735

Kelliots
06-30-2013, 09:53 AM
I'm installing the Wag Aero harnesses, I assume the tube clamp (RB-14) and triangular fitting (A-10) come with the full kiT FOR THE pa-22's. I didn't see them listed seperately. Thats a good picture showing the installation.

Kelliots
06-30-2013, 09:58 AM
Those are the same as the Wag Aero kit and cost exactly the same - $169 - Same colors also......

gliderman
06-30-2013, 11:03 AM
Thanks Guys!! :)

sophistical
07-05-2013, 03:22 PM
Well it appears I spoke too soon. The belt coming out of the Amsafe retract is at least 8 inches too long; it's not any where close to being tight when fastened; even with the seat moved forward a couple notches. Also, the "Y" portion will be almost like a headrest if the belts were shortened at all and the Y harness is pulled away from the retract unit. Since the belt is a Y it has to twist and it appears it will twist right at the back of your head which will make it a bit uncomfortable.

Does anyone have any ideas on next steps? I was thinking of trying to contact Amsafe to see if they sell the retract with a much shorter belt; or if they would shorten the belt. Obviously getting the shoulder harness shortened could be a headache (unless someone took it to a seamstress and said it was for their tractor - lol)


This has been a very helpful thread for me as I researched shoulder harnesses and so I thought I'd share a picture of how mine turned out. The plane is still at the shop doing the annual so I can't speak to the comfort of the Amsafe units but I thought I'd share some comments:


The parts are what Tbird specified earlier in this thread; F.Atlee Dodge front attach brackets P/N 3232-1 and AMSAFE Restraint System P/N 4022-1-061-2396. The price seems to go up each year so I just pulled the trigger; it's unfortunately almost $1000 in parts at this time.
If you order the Atlee Dodge brackets from Univair, call and mention that you need the 1 inch units as the parts in their online store are smaller. Rick called me back and corrected me as he knew that the Pacers need the 1 inch parts and not the part that I found through their online catalog.
My A&P didn't think there was room above the headliner to install the ratchet assemblies. I had purchased (thanks to an article in SW News) a Porsche trim piece (# 911-555-615-01) for the cut in the headliner and they used it, but still mounted the ratchet outside the headliner. It doesn't look too bad although I'd prefer it be hidden. He apparently called F.Atlee Dodge and they had the same feeling on the Pacer's (that it wouldn't fit above the headliner)
The "action" of the ratchet assemblies is very smooth, I am very glad I went that route over fixed belts.

​5060

Lownslow
07-05-2013, 03:48 PM
I had the same experience when I installed mine. The belt is too long to for the seat position fully aft. Also have a problem with the inertia reel being a head-knocker for my lengthy self. I have since removed the inertia real and will install a "fixed" shoulder harness that doesn't extend down as far as the inertia reel. I will have these for sale if they will work for someone.

Lou

Frogdad
07-05-2013, 04:22 PM
You can take the inertia reel/belt combination to a repair station that re-webs and recertifies aircraft seat belts. They can shorten the belt and rewind it on the inertia reel. We used C&M Marine to do this on our inertia reels. http://www.cmaviationservices.com/aircraft-seat-belts
I adjust the belts so the "Y" is just starting to move away from the reel in normal seated position. The "Y" still rubs your neck but after a while you don't notice it anymore.

sophistical
07-05-2013, 04:31 PM
Thank you! That's exactly what I was looking for; I figured some company has to fabricate/modify/repair these things. I just left a message and we'll see what they come back with!


You can take the inertia reel/belt combination to a repair station that re-webs and recertifies aircraft seat belts. They can shorten the belt and rewind it on the inertia reel. We used C&M Marine to do this on our inertia reels. http://www.cmaviationservices.com/aircraft-seat-belts
I adjust the belts so the "Y" is just starting to move away from the reel in normal seated position. The "Y" still rubs your neck but after a while you don't notice it anymore.

sophistical
07-08-2013, 09:09 AM
Quick update: CM called back promptly this morning. They cannot just modify the part because that Amsafe part number is specific to the length and the fact that it is a kit (including lap belts). They are going to see if there is a different part that is shorter but if not, they only thing they can do is make me a "custom" kit since they are a manufacturer.

PACERGUY
07-08-2013, 07:30 PM
My IA welded a small bracket to place the reel as far back on top of the cross tube as possible. Did skylight at same time so it was a easy mod. Otherwise I would have had the same problem with strap hitting back of head. I have pic of bracket, will try to post but not to computer smart.
DENNY

PACERGUY
07-08-2013, 07:37 PM
Wow it worked!! This moves the reel back enough so you can have seat full back. The harness is still rather vertical but it worked for me.
DENNY

smcnutt
07-09-2013, 09:40 AM
I wonder what's different in the mounting between Frogdad's pictures from post #26 where the reels ended up above the headliner and Sophistical's picture below where they are below the headliner? Different brackets or are the reels different?



50875088




​5060

sophistical
07-09-2013, 10:11 AM
Smcnutt

I've wondered the same thing. Another reason my A&P gave was he didn't want to interfere with the cables that are right there so I'm not sure how hard he looked at getting the units up under the headliner. It does appear that Frogdad's install used panels to cover up the reels which may have helped. I also think you can change the angle of the reels slightly by rotating the mount on the rear spar carry-through tube. Finally, in my picture you can see that the units are pressing the headliner upwards so if they were mounted above the headliner I'd estimate that about half of the reel unit would be covered. With a little more rotation of the mount and maybe a cover like frogdad's I think it would be really close to being covered.

Pacerguy

Now you've got me thinking about the skylight mod again . . sure is tempting; I'd really like to sit in a plane with this mod; maybe I'll bump into someone at Oshkosh. I really like that approach though; you can probably position the reel unit a little higher (as it appears you did), ensure clearance around the cables, and keep it back as far as possible as well. The only question I'd have is around the strength of the bracket but it appears it should be relatively strong.

smcnutt
07-09-2013, 01:36 PM
I'm not sure how your's are hanging from the bracket. However, based on Tbirds pictures, it looks like they have the reels ABOVE the bracket but Steve's pictures of the install with the skylight has the reels BELOW the bracket. It looks like that would make a big difference in whether they end up above/below the headliner.

Tbird's install:
50915092

Steve's Skylight install:
5090

sophistical
07-09-2013, 01:49 PM
50915092



Mine are setup just like this.

59pacer
07-12-2013, 08:29 PM
5120The liner is fabric. The inertia reel is mounted on a strap welded over the tube crossmember so that the reel is as high as possible, and tilted down about 20 degrees. The hole has a thin aluminium sheet stiffener. Very neat and works fine. A bit fiddly to get the reel out.

sophistical
07-12-2013, 09:33 PM
5120The liner is fabric. The inertia reel is mounted on a strap welded over the tube crossmember so that the reel is as high as possible, and tilted down about 20 degrees. The hole has a thin aluminium sheet stiffener. Very neat and works fine. A bit fiddly to get the reel out.

Very nice . . did you do the install with the airplane covered? Obviously you at least had the headliner out.

CM Aviation never called back . . going to have to bug them for options.

59pacer
07-13-2013, 12:17 AM
No fabric or liner installed when I did this Pacer, so I could have a suitable bracket welded on.
On the previous Pacer restoration the fabric was already on, so I bent up a 4130 bracket shaped like a P clamp to go around the cross member. The 'leg' of the P was at the top so I could incline it down without intruding on my own headspace.
The reels were off something like a Saratoga--used for the diagonal type passenger restraint. The reels were a bit bigger than some of the newer types, but the forward edge of the reel is just clear of the liner, and the reel is locked in place so it can't rotate.
The hole in the liner is just long enough to allow the belt to hang down under it's own weight, or cope with it over my shoulders when I'm leaning fully forward, without the belt contacting the liner and causing it to wrinkle. The width of the hole is just a little wider than the belt width--I've never heard of a Pacer with enough room to move sideways much!

mmoyle
04-07-2015, 08:20 PM
A friend of mine has a set for sale. Inertial reels, lap belts both front and back. $400 http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/07/dd94bddf7f09ce44c95d0ef6c4260036.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/07/3452909c3d448612a213a44d0b50fe64.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/07/634645adee1ed25823ae77b2d67ad0f7.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/07/f1466ae2ca1be5c779b7bf4eb70ed172.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/07/9afcdbadd9365d23a10519ed17d6c7ef.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Steve Pierce
04-08-2015, 06:43 AM
So are you buying them or offering them up for sale?

mmoyle
04-08-2015, 11:31 AM
I would have...They're to short for my Pacer because the inertial reel mount is nearly 12" aft of the rear spar carry through tube.. Paul (good friend in Soldotna Ak) has them up for sale on the Bearhawk group. He gave me permission to post them up here.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Curly
04-08-2015, 11:35 PM
Mark I have the same problem. I have a set of Wagaero belts but they are also too short on the Y. (the bit that goes to the reel)
I have looked at other brands, but they all seem to have a similar problem if not specially made. I have taken mine to a local seat belt repairer to have the belt that attaches to the inertia reel, increased in length.

mmoyle
04-09-2015, 12:26 AM
I was hoping Paul's would work...would if I hadn't made a mount aft...Paul did the same on his Bearhawk. Now the for sale set is to short. Pretty sure they'd fit a Pacer/Tripacer if mounted to the rear spar carry through tube. I'll have a set custom made once I have finished the seat upholstry...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

tnowak
07-02-2015, 07:19 AM
Some SW Pipers have their shoulder harness attachment point being the upper fuselage cross tube. A simple arrangement that has the harness strap (end of "Y") wrapped around the tube (secured with the harness buckle).
Does anyone know if this is covered by a STC or other official mod. process?
TonyN

John_McF
07-03-2015, 12:26 AM
Does anyone actually have details of the original Piper Shoulder harness kit - Part numbers drawings etc?

d.grimm
07-03-2015, 05:05 AM
Tony,
STC's are not required in the US. Promote
Safety and such. Consider individual belts
instead of Y harness. I had the Y's in my
Vagabond, they chaffed my neck. I put
individual Hooker harness in the Fleet and they
are much more comfortable.
Dave

Steve Pierce
07-03-2015, 06:42 AM
Some SW Pipers have their shoulder harness attachment point being the upper fuselage cross tube. A simple arrangement that has the harness strap (end of "Y") wrapped around the tube (secured with the harness buckle).
Does anyone know if this is covered by a STC or other official mod. process?
TonyN

Tony, I merged the thread you started with another on the same subject. Lots of great information. There are STC'd units but you can also use this. Read this. http://www.pierceaero.net/techdata/rsh.pdf

Kelliots
07-08-2015, 11:10 AM
I installed the Wag Aero "Y" STC'd shoulder harness kit in my Colt a few years ago. To install the attach brackets I removed the rear cockpit access panel and sat inside the fuselage behind the baggage area. It was tight but I got it done...hardest part was squeezing the clamps closed to install the bolt/nut. I have a vinyl headliner and I just slitted the vinyl where the the belts come thru, it hasn't grown any since. The belts do constrict you some from reaching for the brake handle, but I just loosen the right shoulder strap a little and its no problem. I finished up by adding the "Piper" sticky back emblems to the buckles from AS & S, it looks good. I am happy with my Wag Aero shoulder harnesses and I wouldn't own any plane without shoulder harnesses, they will prevent a nasty head injury in a forced landing....good luck.

tnowak
07-09-2015, 02:02 AM
Thanks for the info. Looks like a simple mod. application for this here in England.
TonyN

gliderman
07-19-2015, 12:06 AM
Hi All

was in an A/C tonight which had a nose gear collapse...( C-172C)

Shoulder harnesses saved us from ANY Injury.

I will now be putting them in my Tripe...

PLEASE put them in yours also....

Shane-o

John_McF
07-20-2015, 05:25 AM
Does anyone have details on the Piper Shoulder Harness kit - Part numbers(or Standard Alternates) Drawings etc?

Cheers

mmoyle
08-20-2015, 11:18 AM
Asked to post pics of my harness mounts.http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/20/c2e33d41e0e2206437412c2bef4b707c.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/20/47d44aafccdfe3ec18c5f2b650f0fa02.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/20/fbd2cc6e1512e1be24abb368fd7f5062.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/20/caf9c63cac520a34a3b5810b989fa2a9.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/20/316290f35a244cc206b3379161385206.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/20/e056e096457bb21c8bc15b5168b1e2fb.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/20/b5936c9299e8c3a42b5f1a92b5664122.jpg

rsrguy3
08-20-2015, 03:45 PM
Wow, sweet!

CamTom12
08-27-2015, 08:52 AM
Looks good, Mark!

Tripacer76D
09-01-2015, 08:27 AM
When I had the Tripacer, I used my right foot to bring the flaps up to the first notch, where I could then use my hand for the rest if I really felt it necessary.
LOL!! It's good to hear that I'm not the only one that uses that technique!!!

tnowak
11-25-2015, 09:17 AM
Have been reading all about TSOs and STCs etc. on the other thread.

I see quite a few pictures of Shortwings with shoulder harness straps attached to the upper fuselage cross tube.
I am seeking local approval for that mod on my permit to fly Vagabond (in UK) but wondered if there is an existing STC for that mod?
If not, how come it gets "approved" / signed off in your Shortwings or shouldn't I ask?
TonyN

smcnutt
11-25-2015, 09:39 AM
From m a previous post from Steve

Not aware of an STC but according to this FAA document none is needed. http://www.pierceaero.net/techdata/rsh.pdf

However, reading that it sounds like if you weld something like a mounting tab then it's no longer a 'minor change' so I'm not sure how they handled that. If you mount them like some others by simply wrapping a clamp around a tube then it sounds like a minor change per this document.

rsrguy3
11-25-2015, 08:17 PM
Everything is pretty vague with regard to the installation of new restraints, my guess is the attitude is that they just want better restraints in these old planes. Here's mine.
http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/showthread.php?10612-Pacer-Skylight/page7

tnowak
11-26-2015, 03:20 AM
Thanks, the FAA Policy statement makes it perfectly clear now!!!!
The answer is........
I will send this off to the LAA. May (or may not) help them!
TonyN

Deb Ings
02-13-2016, 10:53 AM
Did you also get the Altee Dodge kit for the rear seats? I'm interested in that mod as well.

Steve Pierce
02-14-2016, 08:56 AM
I think the Atlee Dodge kit is engineered for the Super Cub structure. You can buy those same structural clamps at Wicks.
http://aircraftproducts.wicksaircraft.com/keyword/all-categories/clamp-loop?&plpver=10&pagesize=50&pagenum=1&filter=1&keyword=clamps&key=product&keycateg=100&keyprod=2528&SchType=2&keyType=P

cammons3
02-15-2016, 02:54 PM
I think the Atlee Dodge kit is engineered for the Super Cub structure. You can buy those same structural clamps at Wicks.

I still need to install my 4-point harnesses (http://www.hookerharness.com/aviation.html) in the Vagabond, and I'm pretty interested in using these MS27405 clamps (http://aircraftproducts.wicksaircraft.com/viewitems/line-clamps/clamp-loop). Looking at SWP Drawing 11576, I just want to make sure I'm seeing that the tubes I'd attach the harness and seat belt to are 1-inch ones... my drawing is a little washed out and pixelated. I crossed the number in the drawing to 11567-39 for the upper and 11567-57 for the lower. It seems that I measured 0.75" for the lower, but I was fighting a few things with my caliper to include the fabric... I couldn't do squat with the top tube, but I did seem to measure 1-inch on my parts plane (tripacer) in the hangar. Since the drawings are a little hard to read, I just want to make sure I'm see things correctly, if someone wouldn't mind checking my work.
Thanx!

10031
10032

tnowak
02-16-2016, 03:04 AM
Hi Curt,

The upper cross-tube is 1" OD, 0.035" wall thickness, 4130 steel.
Our UK LAA wasn't too happy with me using that cross-tube as it doesn't meet modern requirements. However, they will allow me to trial that position as I will be installing a proper attachment point when I recover my fuselage later this year.
TonyN

cammons3
02-16-2016, 12:58 PM
Our UK LAA wasn't too happy with me using that cross-tube as it doesn't meet modern requirements. However, they will allow me to trial that position as I will be installing a proper attachment point when I recover my fuselage later this year.
Yep Tony, under modern regulations, our FAA wouldn't condone the use of the cross-tube either without some beefing up. However, considering the original certifications of our aircraft and the desires to at least improve (somewhat) the survivability in a crash, the Feds have been a little more lenient with the installation of individual restraints. I'm sure you're also waving the policy letter (https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/harness_kits/media/shoulderpolicy.pdf) from our FAA at the LAA as well. Obviously something is better than nothing, and at least the 1-inch cross-tube will slow down the impact with the panel... Now if we could just as easily get that 12-gallon bomb out of the cockpit under a minor modification (i.e., logbook entry), life would be so much simpler.
Do you require approval for a minor modification, thus a log book entry only, under UK rules? Note pages 2 & 3 of the policy letter (https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/harness_kits/media/shoulderpolicy.pdf). Anyway, I, too, can see that when/if I ever recover the Vag, the restraint system will be improved upon; likely requiring a field approval for welding in attach points and beef-ups. I'm already putting some thought into the Pacer's set up.
Thanks for the verification.

tnowak
02-17-2016, 03:19 AM
Curt,

Yes, the minor mod application process is simple and low cost as my Vag is on the permit to fly system.
However, if it was on a normal C of A system then big $$$$$$$.....
I can send you info on the beefing up I will be doing, which has received LAA approval. It is for the Vag but is most likely a good starting point for a Pacer as well.
TonyN

Jim Hann
04-12-2016, 01:11 PM
I really like what Frank was doing here. I know that he has since passed and the airplane is in other hands.

My question is, are the inertia reels worth the price? I really don't like having to loosen my harness in the pattern to reach the flap handle and I don't want to add an aftermarket extension either. I know I need to get some protection installed for the front seats in 43D, the rear seat will be done as time permits since they at least do not have a bunch of pointy knobs and glass faced instruments in front of them.

BTW, they are up to $407 a set.

Jim


Front seat Shoulder harness Inertia Reel Installation on our '57 PA-22-150
Installed inertia reels using F.Atlee Dodge front attach brackets P/N 3232-1 special order for 1" dia rear spar carry thru tube. Installed AMSAFE Restraint System P/N 4022-1-061-2396 (2 ea.) front only. Lap belts attach to std. Piper attach points. Pictures attached. Believe reels will be above head liner when installed.
Frank Rush

smcnutt
07-18-2016, 02:45 PM
After much hemming & hawing we finally decided on installing the fixed shoulder harness (Wag Aero) in our plane. Was really trying to talk myself into the inertial reel ones but finally decided to just go with the fixed mostly due to price. I've only done one short flight around the patch so I'm not sure about them yet. With them pulled tight I could pull the flaps with my right foot but couldn't reach it with my arms. I'm sure I will get used to them but it will take a few flights. I'm sure my wife will appreciate the extra security they provide. She never liked flying up front because there is nothing for her to hold onto when it gets bumpy -other than the yoke but I kind of need that.:icon_rolleyes:

Anyway, here's the final look. Just used the supplied oversized Adel clamp over the cross tube and their triangle bracket. We fabricated a couple of oval escutcheons with slots for the harness and sandwiched the headliner between them. Made the slots big enough so the harness is not tugging on the headliner too much. We pulled the headliner down at the doors to install the clamps then used the 3M spray adhesive #77 to put it back up. The nasty brown adhesive bleed thru you might see is from the original headliner installation before we bought the plane.
109361093810937

Jim
07-18-2016, 03:23 PM
Hi,

Looks very nicely done!

Lownslow
07-18-2016, 08:32 PM
Looks good! The problem with the inertia reels is that they hang down and are a head-knocker for many of us. I think your turned out great.

Lou

Steve Pierce
07-19-2016, 05:35 AM
Nice installation.


Just used the supplied oversized Adel clamp over the cross tube and their triangle bracket.
Were they those steel structural clamps?
10939

smcnutt
07-19-2016, 06:52 AM
Nice installation.


Were they those steel structural clamps?
10939
No ours looked more like a regular Adel clamp. I can't imagine trying to get one of those closed or even slipping it over the tube. Doing that above the headliner (without ripping it) was the hardest part of whole thing. Here's the hardware they gave us.

10940

Pacer42Z
07-19-2016, 07:22 AM
After much hemming & hawing we finally decided on installing the fixed shoulder harness (Wag Aero) in our plane. Was really trying to talk myself into the inertial reel ones but finally decided to just go with the fixed mostly due to price. I've only done one short flight around the patch so I'm not sure about them yet. With them pulled tight I could pull the flaps with my right foot but couldn't reach it with my arms. I'm sure I will get used to them but it will take a few flights. I'm sure my wife will appreciate the extra security they provide. She never liked flying up front because there is nothing for her to hold onto when it gets bumpy -other than the yoke but I kind of need that.:icon_rolleyes:

Anyway, here's the final look. Just used the supplied oversized Adel clamp over the cross tube and their triangle bracket. We fabricated a couple of oval escutcheons with slots for the harness and sandwiched the headliner between them. Made the slots big enough so the harness is not tugging on the headliner too much. We pulled the headliner down at the doors to install the clamps then used the 3M spray adhesive #77 to put it back up. The nasty brown adhesive bleed thru you might see is from the original headliner installation before we bought the plane.
109361093810937

I have the same harnesses in my Pacer. They were one of the first things I installed when I purchased the Pacer 17 years ago. I like the cover plates you made. I just cut the headliner enough to get the clamps around the tubes. Doesn't look as nice as your installation. I don't tighten the shoulder belts to the point I can't move anymore and I'm able to reach the flap handle closer towards the seat to pull it into the first notch. Then I can reach the end of the handle to pull full flaps.

Juergen
Pacer N3342Z

Jim Hann
07-21-2016, 07:52 PM
I'm going to go that route also, I'd really like inertials but I just can't justify the difference in cost.

smcnutt
07-22-2016, 06:47 AM
I'm going to go that route also, I'd really like inertials but I just can't justify the difference in cost.
That's where we were and we decided to pull the trigger on the fixed harness. The indecision delayed getting anything done for far too long and I think being a huge safety issue, delaying action is dangerous IMHO so that's why we just did it.

Having now installed the Wag Aero fixed harness, my concern is the ability to adjust the lap belt. With the shoulder straps it's important that the buckle is centered on your waist as that's where the shoulder straps connect. If it's not centered then the shoulder straps would pull/rub on your neck.

The buckle side of the lap belt is easily adjustable on the Wag Aero but the other side does not have the same type of quick adjustment. This would be an issue if you often have different size people getting in the front seats. This was mentioned earlier in this thread but I didn't pay attention to it. I think their was mention that the Hooker harness has a different arrangement with the lap belt but they are more expensive. It's at least worth investigating.

Clayton Harper
07-22-2016, 07:23 AM
In getting my Single Engine Sea at Alaska Floats and Skis I flew 4 different TriPacer/Pacers, all with shoulder harness installed. I'm 6'0" so I need the seat all the way back. In that kind of flying, one is using the flaps, and reaches for the water rudder a lot. Two of the planes had fixed "Y" type harnesses, one "Y" inertial. The one that worked the best for me was a "Hooker Two Strap" set up. The harnesses are easy to adjust and though it may not mean much, they load the rear spar carry though in two places per seat. I called Hooker about prices. About $350 a seat, but there will be Airventure deals, so 2 for me next week.

Added Thought:
I should have explained the reason I thought the "H" type harness was more comfortable. With the seat all the way back my head touched the "Y", that was bothersome. I'll order them with crouch straps which I believe will make the shoulder harness more effective.

Pacer42Z
07-22-2016, 07:29 AM
That's where we were and we decided to pull the trigger on the fixed harness. The indecision delayed getting anything done for far too long and I think being a huge safety issue, delaying action is dangerous IMHO so that's why we just did it.

Having now installed the Wag Aero fixed harness, my concern is the ability to adjust the lap belt. With the shoulder straps it's important that the buckle is centered on your waist as that's where the shoulder straps connect. If it's not centered then the shoulder straps would pull/rub on your neck.

The buckle side of the lap belt is easily adjustable on the Wag Aero but the other side does not have the same type of quick adjustment. This would be an issue if you often have different size people getting in the front seats. This was mentioned earlier in this thread but I didn't pay attention to it. I think their was mention that the Hooker harness has a different arrangement with the lap belt but they are more expensive. It's at least worth investigating.

Good point about adjusting the lap-belt. I forgot about this. It is a pain on the Wag Aero belts since you have to get to the end where it is attached to the airframe. Having an adjustment right at the buckle would be much nicer. I used to fly a Glasair for a while with the Hooker harness and remember how easy it was to adjust.

Juergen
Pacer N3342Z

Steve Pierce
07-23-2016, 07:02 AM
Hooker makes a nice set up with the seat belt wrapped around the carry-thru tube. Both left and right lap belts are easily adjusted from the buckle side. We put these in my brother's Clipper and I am glad we did cause different people fly it and it is easy to adjust the belts for different pilots. Sandy brings up a very good point that I dealt with yesterday when Lee got in the airplane to head to Memphis. He left the belts lose and complained that the shoulder straps wouldn't tight. The belt was up at his chest. I adjusted his lap belts and all was good. I have heard of someone sliding under the belts in an accident.

Clayton Harper
07-23-2016, 08:47 AM
The 5 point (crotch strap), I think will increase the effectiveness of the shoulder harness in a short wing Piper in a crash. Here is what i see happening, first the torso moves forward, pulling the lap belt tight and up. If one looks at AC43.13-2B Chapter 9, Section 2, Geometry and Attachment and a Short Wing Frame, it becomes pretty clear there is no good way to come up with the 30 deg from horizontal attach point, that has any strength. Attached to the spar carry though above the pilots head with the seat all the way back the angle in more like 60 deg. I'm hoping the the crotch strap will keep the lap belt from riding up too high.

bstoney
07-23-2016, 02:16 PM
Homer, Been using the 5 point harness for many years on helicopters. The crotch strap allows you to adjust where the main belt rides. It then allows the shoulder harness to be more comfortable. It is particularly good for those of us that have a protruding abdomen (big belly) . I think the 5 point is by far the best choice.
Stoney

Subsonic
07-31-2016, 01:10 PM
I bought right and left Schroth cam-lock helicopter 4-point harnesses with dual inertial retractors for installation in my Tri-Pacer last week. I like the paired left-right lap and shoulder tabs and the way the cam stays attached to one side. Buckling into the system means just inserting a single two-point tab into the cam-lock in one motion. Simple as it gets, and the inertia reels on each shoulder strap work great and are a nice light and small size. Clayton's analysis of the value of the crotch strap makes sense, but these didn't come with one. The cams have a slot for one, so I spose I could add the crotch strap...Snagged them new in packages (2012 mfg. date code) off ebay for 260 bucks for the pair. There's a similar set on ebay now for $399 for the pair, but have y-shoulder harness with single inertial wheels. I didn't want the neck rubbing y-type. I'm intending to mount the wheels as high as possible to avoid head knocks.

Theo
09-06-2016, 12:10 PM
I found this video on YouTube concerning the Shoulder Harness Installation. I think this is the Wag Aero Set up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABEi7dWtgkk

MWflyer
09-24-2016, 10:38 PM
I got the Wag Aero shoulder harness set installed in the Pacer this week....haven't flown with them yet, it all looks to be good. The price on these seems to be fair but be advised the attach brackets for the lap belts aren't included in the setup from Wag. The stc says use existing brackets. Problem. The ends on my existing belts were sewn in type and look to be a lower profile. Downside to the only style I could find to use with slide through attach is that they stick up an inch higher where they mount in the middle of the seats ( dig into you backside getting in and out). Question? Earlier in this thread pics of belts mounted to tube in the floor behind seat. is that a stc. Or a service bulletin or someone's own fix?

Steve Pierce
09-25-2016, 08:41 AM
Are your center attachments mounted to the seat.

MWflyer
09-25-2016, 11:32 AM
Yes at the hinge bolt for two seat halves.

Steve Pierce
09-25-2016, 11:35 AM
Not very safe, the seat will fold up in the middle in case of an accident. What year model is your plane?

MWflyer
09-25-2016, 11:54 AM
1950. Pa 20.

Steve Pierce
09-25-2016, 12:28 PM
Early fuselage. I would get a piece of cable and swedge it to the tubing in the floor for additional support. Your airplane originally had a single lap belt for the front two passengers. Saw an accident with a Pacer with your seat belt/shoulder harness arrangement that was involved in an accident where the seat folded in the middle and they both went into and under the instrument panel. Very serious with serious injuries. Look in the AC 43.13 for some additional guidance.

MWflyer
09-25-2016, 01:37 PM
Thanks for your help on that. That does look like a real weak spot, very glad you pointed that out. I will be working to fix that.

Spotty
07-26-2017, 11:51 AM
Couple of observations: The Piper suggestion of about 1978? to attach the shoulder harnesses around the aft seat frame bottom and folding back rest tubes will almost certainly kill you. The geometry of such a fix with the deceleration G load in a crash will likely shear the hinge bolts or compress your spine down to Munchkin height.

The fix above the top of the rearmost seat position is clumsy and intrusive to the head and neck. However in might be tolerable if 4 clamps were to be attached to the carry-through tube, one for each shoulder strap.....but it provides no restraint in an inverted crash.

For my Tri-Pacer I have ceased using the rear seat and dedicate the resultant space to luggage, shopping and camping gear. Passengers are always grumbling about leg and shoulder room anyway. This exposes a very convenient (and massive) transverse structural member just above the luggage compartment, in front of the hat rack, to which the rear seat squab would normally be laced. My shoulder harnesses are attached thereto using 2 webbing loops which are joined by 3 bar buckles and onto which are attached harness anchor plates. The plates are then attached to the shoulder straps of my GQ "Z" type seat harnesses, easily refurbished by Hooker complete with new thigh pads. The resultant load path is parallel to the floor and provides near ideal restraint.

I have seen a Tripe in US which had a cable loop swaged around the cluster where the rear main spar attaches. The cable was pre-protected by a plastic sheath, also protecting the tubework. This might solve the head/neck interference but this would have the effect of diverting the shoulder straps sideways.

MWflyer
07-26-2017, 02:40 PM
Not sure but I would not think that oval shaped tube that suspends the rear seat back would have much strength if a belt were to pull forward on it in a crash

Steve Pierce
08-01-2017, 06:20 PM
Couple of observations: The Piper suggestion of about 1978? to attach the shoulder harnesses around the aft seat frame bottom and folding back rest tubes will almost certainly kill you. The geometry of such a fix with the deceleration G load in a crash will likely shear the hinge bolts or compress your spine down to Munchkin height.

The fix above the top of the rearmost seat position is clumsy and intrusive to the head and neck. However in might be tolerable if 4 clamps were to be attached to the carry-through tube, one for each shoulder strap.....but it provides no restraint in an inverted crash.

For my Tri-Pacer I have ceased using the rear seat and dedicate the resultant space to luggage, shopping and camping gear. Passengers are always grumbling about leg and shoulder room anyway. This exposes a very convenient (and massive) transverse structural member just above the luggage compartment, in front of the hat rack, to which the rear seat squab would normally be laced. My shoulder harnesses are attached thereto using 2 webbing loops which are joined by 3 bar buckles and onto which are attached harness anchor plates. The plates are then attached to the shoulder straps of my GQ "Z" type seat harnesses, easily refurbished by Hooker complete with new thigh pads. The resultant load path is parallel to the floor and provides near ideal restraint.

I have seen a Tripe in US which had a cable loop swaged around the cluster where the rear main spar attaches. The cable was pre-protected by a plastic sheath, also protecting the tubework. This might solve the head/neck interference but this would have the effect of diverting the shoulder straps sideways.

I flew my brothers Clipper today with the back seat removed and thought about this post. Attaching the shoulder harness to the rear seat streamline tube would put a negative angle on my shoulders. I am 6' and my shoulders are well above the seat back and would be afraid of spine compression. I believe the Hooker harnesses we wrapped around the rear spar carry through do a better job and don't see a way for them to slide sideways.

Gilbert Pierce
08-02-2017, 06:31 PM
My shoulder harness's are Hooker H style attached to the rear spar carry-thru. My wife and I have never found them to be uncomfortable.
The center seat belt attachment is to a reinforcement welded to the under floor cross and angle rubes with a verticle ear to attach the belts to.

CTJER
09-11-2017, 07:34 AM
Any advise on the best/easiest installation?

Jerry

Steve Pierce
09-11-2017, 08:23 AM
Hi Jerry, I merged your thread with another on the subject. Lots of good information and I don't think there will be any difference between the Colt and Pacer/Tri-Pacer or even the Clipper.

smcnutt
09-11-2017, 10:33 AM
We installed the fixed harness and if I had it all to do over I would probably go for the inertial reels instead. Grabbing the flap handle at least for the first notch, is a pain. I actually use my foot to pull the first notch in a fairly awkward move. From there I can reach and pull the last notch with my hand. That may be because I'm on the short side at 5'5" but I don't know.

We installed them in a already covered airplane and it was a real PIA. We pulled the headliner down at the doors but still was very tight and hard to get in there. Somewhere in this thread somebody cut a larger opening and installed a 6"x"6" (?) cover plate and that might be the way to go. Just thinking out loud though. YMMV.

Shermanj1
12-01-2017, 02:03 PM
Gilbert, do you have pictures of your install? Im interested in the Hooker H style. Thanks

Gilbert Pierce
12-01-2017, 06:01 PM
Gilbert, do you have pictures of your install? Im interested in the Hooker H style. Thanks
My field approval was for Y style, didn't like them so I put them in the VAG.
H style is more comfortable. I slit the head liner and then my wife stitched the opening like a pocket. The belt is just wrapped around the spar carry thru and secured with the 3 bar slide. The drawings on the 337 are from the 43-13-2A

JPerkins
03-11-2018, 10:57 PM
If I'm installing a shoulder harness without drilling or welding the fuselage, is it not a minor modification? Made clamps to hold an inertial reel on the 1" carry through tube to install the Amsafe setup.
I get tied up on the red tape easily and am looking for clarification.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Subsonic
03-11-2018, 11:38 PM
I think it is minor with the ruling that the FAA put out on old planes making mods to put in shoulder harnesses. Steve Pierce can cite chapter and verse on the mod. acceptance. I hope he's out flying and not working or he'd reply.

cammons3
03-12-2018, 12:56 AM
If I'm installing a shoulder harness without drilling or welding the fuselage, is it not a minor modification? Made clamps to hold an inertial reel on the 1" carry through tube to install the Amsafe setup.
I get tied up on the red tape easily and am looking for clarification.

http://www.pierceaero.net/techdata/rsh.pdf

Steve Pierce
03-12-2018, 06:19 AM
And AC 43.13-2B

JPerkins
03-12-2018, 11:44 AM
OK, that's what I thought. Thanks everyone.

bobbynick@msn.com
09-16-2018, 05:36 PM
what are the best deals for PA-22 shoulder harness?

gliderman
09-16-2018, 06:00 PM
what are the best deals for PA-22 shoulder harness?

I got mine at Wag-Aero

ysifly2
09-16-2018, 07:38 PM
Mine came from Hooker Harness.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

bobbynick@msn.com
09-16-2018, 09:09 PM
what was the P/N from Wag and hooker?

ysifly2
09-16-2018, 10:30 PM
what was the P/N from Wag and hooker?

Don’t believe there is a “part number”. There are material specs on the straps, but don’t recall a part number.
You will need to call and discuss what you want. Mine is a Y-harness. You can also get H-harness. And how you want to install. Mine is wrapped around the overhead cross tube

https://www.hookerharness.com/contact.html




Sent from my iPhone using ShortWingPipers.Org mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=95463)

Steve Pierce
09-17-2018, 06:28 AM
I merged your thread with 17 pages of previous posts on this subject.

Gilbert Pierce
09-17-2018, 09:32 AM
Call Hooker harness and ask for Scott. Tell what you need. He has made four sets for me.
Hooker Custom Harness, Inc.
324 East Stephenson St
Freeport, Illinois 61032
Phone- 815-233-5478
Fax- 815-233-5479
Email - info@hookerharness.com (info@hookerharness.com?subject=Question%20from%20 Website)

Spdcrazy
10-01-2018, 07:39 PM
I ordered from hooker as well. Great customer service and knowledgable people. I don't believe there is a part number either. Just call and discuss. I have the H style in grey. Haven't cut the headliner for the install yet, but with the wrapping around the tube and my wife's small hands, it should work out well

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using ShortWingPipers.Org mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=95463)

Flyjeep
01-15-2019, 10:21 PM
I’m looking at the wag aero shoulder belts and wondering about installation. Making a bracket and bolting it in with the headliner seems to be the tough part. Is there a reason the belt can’t just wrap around the bar? I’ve seen it done in roll cages like that. And is there a rear shoulder belt option?

stevesaircraft(Bri)
01-16-2019, 02:06 AM
I’m looking at the wag aero shoulder belts and wondering about installation. Making a bracket and bolting it in with the headliner seems to be the tough part. Is there a reason the belt can’t just wrap around the bar? I’ve seen it done in roll cages like that. And is there a rear shoulder belt option?

Wag sells the harness in a”kit” form that comes with a steel clamp and bolt to attach the seat belt to the rear carry through tube..

Brian


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Flyjeep
01-16-2019, 02:45 AM
Wag sells the harness in a”kit” form that comes with a steel clamp and bolt to attach the seat belt to the rear carry through tube..

Brian


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I thought I saw that, but seen older post and a YouTube video of people making brackets. The main issue I saw was having problems mounting the bracket and getting the bolt in and tightened through the headliner..

Steve Pierce
01-16-2019, 07:49 AM
If you go through this thread you should find pictures and descriptions of the clamps and simply looping the belt around the rear spar carry-thru tube.

smcnutt
01-16-2019, 08:36 AM
As Steve said, lots of discussion /ideas back in this thread. However, looping the strap vs using a clamp - I would be concerned with the strap moving along the tube. Especially in a crash with significant forces coming into play. Yes installing the bracket was a PIA but I think it is worth it considering what I'm protecting - ME. There is an installation where someone cut a larger opening and then created an aluminum cover plate*. I liked that idea.

Sent from my SM-T350 using ShortWingPipers.Org mobile app

*...see post #26

gliderman
01-16-2019, 09:35 AM
Post 52 has a great picture of the wag aero installation. I put in a set and are pleased with them. however I did have the headliner out when I installed the clamps. They don't move

Gilbert Pierce
01-16-2019, 09:38 AM
Hooker Harness has an STC for the Champ that approves wrapping the harness around the spar carry-thru and securing it with a three bar slide. Having installed those in a Champ I assumed that is an effective way to do it considering it met the FAA’s criteria. Both of my airplanes have the harness installed that way.

Gilbert Pierce
01-16-2019, 09:53 AM
I’m looking at the wag aero shoulder belts and wondering about installation. Making a bracket and bolting it in with the headliner seems to be the tough part. Is there a reason the belt can’t just wrap around the bar? I’ve seen it done in roll cages like that. And is there a rear shoulder belt option?
See post #50 in this thread.

Spdcrazy
01-19-2019, 12:02 PM
Just an update on my hooker harnesses install. Wow. Super simple. Done is about 20 minutes. Just measure where you will cut the holes in the headliner. And hope your hands are small enough. Mine were (5'10" 160lbs). Hooker harnesses for me where the H style so four straps, four holes. Quite happy so far. Researching into what I can do with the long tails left after adjusting and such still. 1472014721

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using ShortWingPipers.Org mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=95463)

Flyjeep
01-19-2019, 01:18 PM
Just an update on my hooker harnesses install. Wow. Super simple. Done is about 20 minutes. Just measure where you will cut the holes in the headliner. And hope your hands are small enough. Mine were (5'10" 160lbs). Hooker harnesses for me where the H style so four straps, four holes. Quite happy so far. Researching into what I can do with the long tails left after adjusting and such still. 1472014721

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using ShortWingPipers.Org mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=95463)
Cost? I need to decide soon between these and the wag aero.

Spdcrazy
01-19-2019, 01:21 PM
Cost? I need to decide soon between these and the wag aero.I don't recall. But I do know that it was very reasonable. Give Scott a call over there. His phone number is on the website and he will answer today. Just called him a few minutes ago

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using ShortWingPipers.Org mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=95463)

Gilbert Pierce
01-19-2019, 05:44 PM
I pushed the the tails back up thru the slit.

Spdcrazy
01-19-2019, 07:12 PM
I pushed the the tails back up thru the slit.I called Scott from hooker and he recommends not cutting them in case I want them longer later. Didn't sound like there is a safety issue doing so. But he recommended just rolling it up and zip tying the tails.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using ShortWingPipers.Org mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=95463)

smcnutt
01-21-2019, 11:46 AM
I called Scott from hooker and he recommends not cutting them in case I want them longer later. Didn't sound like there is a safety issue doing so. But he recommended just rolling it up and zip tying the tails.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using ShortWingPipers.Org mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=95463)
That's what we did. Use a black ziptie and you'll never notice them.

ClippedWing
01-21-2019, 08:46 PM
Black Velcro straps did the trick in my case.

Flyjeep
01-23-2019, 02:27 PM
Looks like hooker is $245 per seat. Two holes and wraps around the bar. Wag aero is $185 one hole and bolt on bracket. I just need to make a choice on which one and color.

Spdcrazy
01-23-2019, 02:42 PM
Looks like hooker is $245 per seat. Two holes and wraps around the bar. Wag aero is $185 one hole and bolt on bracket. I just need to make a choice on which one and color.What do you mean two holes? If you mean in the headliner, you can choose a Y type harness of an H. I went with the House to keep my neck from being chaffed.

I also went with Hooker because trying to get a wrench up there would be nearly impossible. Wrapping the belt around the tube was easy to do blind.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using ShortWingPipers.Org mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=95463)

Flyjeep
01-23-2019, 02:57 PM
I guess hooker does Y style to. I was just comparing wag aero y with hooker H style. I might need to clarify with hooker as to which one I was quoted. I just asked for a tri pacer belt.

Spdcrazy
01-23-2019, 03:02 PM
I guess hooker does Y style to. I was just comparing wag aero y with hooker H style. I might need to clarify with hooker as to which one I was quoted. I just asked for a tri pacer belt.Gotcha. I was/am pleased with my H style. Easy to install and my headliner didn't get messed up either

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using ShortWingPipers.Org mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=95463)

Flyjeep
01-23-2019, 03:20 PM
I've sat in 2 planes with the Y style and liked them, but I didn't fly in them so not sure if I'd like them long term. Never tried the H but looks like they would be comfortable. How are they reaching for flaps or brakes?

Spdcrazy
01-23-2019, 03:21 PM
I've sat in 2 planes with the Y style and liked them, but I didn't fly in them so not sure if I'd like them long term. Never tried the H but looks like they would be comfortable. How are they reaching for flaps or brakes?I haven't used mine yet. But I don't expect it will be any different than the Y style.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using ShortWingPipers.Org mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=95463)

Gilbert Pierce
01-23-2019, 08:54 PM
I had to take my Hooker Y style out and replace the with the H.. The Y style rubbed my wife’s neck. Put the Y in my Vag.

wmvosburgh
01-29-2019, 09:33 AM
Eddie Trimmer's inertia reel installation. These look like the Hooker Harness inertia reels.

Reading up on shoulder harness installation and noted the small tube running diagonally next to the pilot's inertia reel harness on Eddie trimmers installation (Steve's post #13). Can someone educate me on this part? Thanks!

kevbot
01-29-2019, 10:52 AM
I have Hooker Ys in my Pacer, my dad installed them back in the 90s. They're ok, but on multi-hour flights I also start to notice the neck rubbing. I think I would prefer the Hs but if I was thinking about doing seatbelts I would only look at the inertia reel options. Got used to flying the Husky with their Y inertia reels and that is nice, it would be great for reaching the flap handle in the Pacer.

Steve Pierce
01-29-2019, 10:56 AM
Reading up on shoulder harness installation and noted the small tube running diagonally next to the pilot's inertia reel harness on Eddie trimmers installation (Steve's post #13). Can someone educate me on this part? Thanks!
Looks like a wire or cable.

Flyjeep
01-29-2019, 03:43 PM
Has anyone put shoulder straps on the rear seats?

stevesaircraft(Bri)
01-30-2019, 10:07 PM
Has anyone put shoulder straps on the rear seats?

I did not install the actual harness but did set up a pair of hard points for rear seat harnesses by using .040 steel plates bent around the streamline tube that is behind the rear of the headliner... the tabs were just above the headliner at the very rear of the hat shelf... might have a picture somewhere..

Brian

Edit, found a photo..

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190131/c1c3aae6071e675130d1b7cf99f84afe.jpg

These were mainly done because the owner has small kids and he wanted them to have the restraints... If I was to do it again I would put the tabs just under the rear U channel and out the top of the rear close out panel that is put in there...

Brian

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dgapilot
04-03-2019, 12:06 PM
I just got a Clipper project, hasn't flown since the 60's, so still only set up with single belt in front and back.The Clipper structure in the overhead is different that the PA20 or PA22 in that with the later airplanes, the bracing from the front carry through is a V that intesects in the middle of the rear carry through. On the PA-16, it is a single daigonal brace that runs from the right front to left rear (if I remeber correctly). So using the rear carry through on the 20/22, the column buckling is only half the with of the aircraft while the 16 ir is the full width of the airplane. I plan on installing the X bracing so I have structure between each diagonal wing attach point, but that doenst change the span of the rear carry through. Any ideas for additional bracing for the shoulder harness attach? Run another tube from the center of the X to the center of the carry through? run 2 short tubes from the aft legs of the X that would divide the carry through in thirds? Or just leave it alone? My plan is to have H style shoulder harnesses. Like everything I don't want to add any excess weight that isn't necessary (actually the plan is to reduce weight wherever possible, but crashworthiness is important). I will be looking at the lower cross tubes (front and back) as well as that is where the two lap belts will be attaching.

Steve Pierce
04-04-2019, 08:30 PM
I just got a Clipper project, hasn't flown since the 60's, so still only set up with single belt in front and back.The Clipper structure in the overhead is different that the PA20 or PA22 in that with the later airplanes, the bracing from the front carry through is a V that intesects in the middle of the rear carry through. On the PA-16, it is a single daigonal brace that runs from the right front to left rear (if I remeber correctly). So using the rear carry through on the 20/22, the column buckling is only half the with of the aircraft while the 16 ir is the full width of the airplane. I plan on installing the X bracing so I have structure between each diagonal wing attach point, but that doenst change the span of the rear carry through. Any ideas for additional bracing for the shoulder harness attach? Run another tube from the center of the X to the center of the carry through? run 2 short tubes from the aft legs of the X that would divide the carry through in thirds? Or just leave it alone? My plan is to have H style shoulder harnesses. Like everything I don't want to add any excess weight that isn't necessary (actually the plan is to reduce weight wherever possible, but crashworthiness is important). I will be looking at the lower cross tubes (front and back) as well as that is where the two lap belts will be attaching.
I have thought about that as well but decided that the tube will probably bend a bit but I doubt very much. The important part I think is to tie the lap belts to the floor in the center.

dgapilot
04-05-2019, 07:28 AM
Attaching the belts to the floor cross tube is essential in my opinion. I’ve seen some installations where the tie to the rear seat frame tube, but that would likely not support crash loads even to CAR 3 standards.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Steve Pierce
04-06-2019, 06:32 AM
There was an accident at Johnson Creek a few years ago with an early Pacer that they had tied the belts to the center of the seats. The seat buckled and they went under the dash. They did have shoulder harnesses. On my Dad's Clipper we replicated what is in the later Tri-Pacers but because the truss is off set to one side for the elevator cables we add a short tube between the diagonal tube and the carry-thru tube. I will get a picture and post it.

dgapilot
04-06-2019, 08:52 AM
There was an accident at Johnson Creek a few years ago with an early Pacer that they had tied the belts to the center of the seats. The seat buckled and they went under the dash. They did have shoulder harnesses. On my Dad's Clipper we replicated what is in the later Tri-Pacers but because the truss is off set to one side for the elevator cables we add a short tube between the diagonal tube and the carry-thru tube. I will get a picture and post it.

Thanks, I’d appreciate it! I’m considering putting all the “safety improvements” together, and trying to go for an STC that will also give a 50 lb gross at increase for airplanes with the O-235, and 100 lb increase with larger engines. It will likely use modified TriPacer front struts. The only missing thing I have is landing gear leg drawings for PA16 and narrow PA20 to substantiate the higher weight for the various landing conditions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Steve Pierce
04-07-2019, 07:46 AM
I have the PA16 landing gear drawing. The difference is the rear tube is .035" wall over the .049" on the Pacer. I replace them with .049" wall in my jig. Never been a problem except when I hit a little dune with one wheel I didn't see on a sand bar.

siouxpilot77
10-28-2019, 03:39 PM
There was an accident at Johnson Creek a few years ago with an early Pacer that they had tied the belts to the center of the seats. The seat buckled and they went under the dash. They did have shoulder harnesses. On my Dad's Clipper we replicated what is in the later Tri-Pacers but because the truss is off set to one side for the elevator cables we add a short tube between the diagonal tube and the carry-thru tube. I will get a picture and post it.


Steve,

I'm redoing the interior on my PA20 this winter and I have the belts that attach to the seat frame. I also have the rear heat ducting installed. Any suggestions on making a modification to attach some new belts on the airframe? What does the FAA have to say about making mod's like this?

Mike

Steve Pierce
10-29-2019, 11:04 AM
Look at AC43.13 on installing seat belts. What year PA20 do you have, didn't realize they had rear seat heat. A clamp or cable around the fuselage tube attached to the seat belt should suffice. Piper used a steel strap to keep the heat off the seat belt from the rear seat heater.

siouxpilot77
10-29-2019, 11:07 AM
Look at AC43.13 on installing seat belts. What year PA20 do you have, didn't realize they had rear seat heat. A clamp or cable around the fuselage tube attached to the seat belt should suffice. Piper used a steel strap to keep the heat off the seat belt from the rear seat heater.

It’s a ‘53 PA20. With the front and rear heat, the insulation and an O320 it keeps the cabin toasty in the winter even up here in Chicago.

I’ll take a look. Anything will be better then attaching it to that bench seat frame. What an awful design.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

krwill
10-30-2019, 08:29 AM
Steve, I've got a 53 PA22 that I'm installing harnesses in this winter. I also have the rear seat heat and need to figure out where to mount the lap belts. I was going to pull the pans and stare at it a bit come the time, but I would love to hear a recommendation.
Thanks!
Ken

Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk

Steve Pierce
10-31-2019, 06:24 AM
I believe there is a picture of a clamp in this thread to tie the center seat belt mount to the fuselage. Wicks sells structural clamps as well. A strap to raise the seat belt like Piper did in the later models to keep the rears eat heat from damaging the belts as well.

dgapilot
10-31-2019, 07:31 AM
I would think that if you are installing seat belt attach fittings to the fuselage structure for the center attach point, and you have a rear seat heater, then you should also be complying with AD 60-05-03 by installing seat belt extender part number 14920-02. The attach method can be seen on drawing 14705 section H-H. This drawing doesn’t show the extended link, only the original installation.

Likewise, if you are putting a center seat belt attach in an early PA-22 rear seat, the cross tube on them was only 5/8 X .035. Later PA-22s that came with individual lap belts had 1 1/8 X.049 for the same tube. The 5/8 tube isn’t strong enough to hold in a 9G crash! I ran the numbers, and you can use a 1 X .035 just barely meets the requirements. I would strongly suggest replacing that tube!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Anthonybox
12-13-2019, 11:42 AM
Hi all,
New to the site. Just bought an experimental Pacer with the Bushmaster conversions. Looking for input on a inertia reel seatbelt setup that you may have installed and like and has cheaper prices than the STC'd versions. Where did you mount the belt attach points? Did you have to weld in some additional bracing so the seatbelt 'Y" or "H" wouldn't rub on your neck? Which manufacture did you use and was the price less for experimental aircraft?

Thanks, Anthony

smcnutt
12-13-2019, 01:25 PM
https://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/showthread.php?5799-Shoulder-Harness-Installation&highlight=seatbelts

Did a search on "seatbelts" and this link has loads of info.

Steve Pierce
12-13-2019, 10:37 PM
Merged the thread. Look at the previous posts for lots of options and pictures.

krwill
12-14-2019, 01:16 AM
I have spent hours trying to find any image of a early Tri Pacer (mine is a 53) with rear seat heat showing where the lap belt is mounting. I haven't pulled my floor yet (figured I would get everything on hand first) but it looks like the heater is right over the tube. Can anyone post an image showing where it mounts?

Thanks!
Ken

Steve Pierce
12-14-2019, 10:32 AM
I have spent hours trying to find any image of a early Tri Pacer (mine is a 53) with rear seat heat showing where the lap belt is mounting. I haven't pulled my floor yet (figured I would get everything on hand first) but it looks like the heater is right over the tube. Can anyone post an image showing where it mounts?

Thanks!
Ken

Look at drawing 13038 section C and you will see the lap belts attached to a tab welded to the center of the bottom seat frame.

dgapilot
12-14-2019, 10:44 AM
I have spent hours trying to find any image of a early Tri Pacer (mine is a 53) with rear seat heat showing where the lap belt is mounting. I haven't pulled my floor yet (figured I would get everything on hand first) but it looks like the heater is right over the tube. Can anyone post an image showing where it mounts?

Thanks!
Ken

Don’t forget, with the rear heat, you need the extenders to comply with AD 60-05-03. That is, if you modify the fuselage to attach to the fuselage rather than the seat frame.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

krwill
12-14-2019, 10:51 AM
Look at drawing 13038 section C and you will see the lap belts attached to a tab welded to the center of the bottom seat frame.

Steve, that is what I have. I have read numerous posts where others state they moved the mount off the seat frame so it wont just fold up in a impact. Where are people attaching it to the frame? I am installing the shoulder harness and wanted to do both at the same time.

dgapilot, yes I actually have a set of the extenders in some spare parts I have. Just need to figure out where to attach them to...

Thanks!
Ken

Steve Pierce
12-15-2019, 08:21 AM
Look at the later fuselage drawing. The clamp is welded to the tube under the seat and floor boards. Pictures posted in this thread.

krwill
12-15-2019, 11:07 PM
Look at the later fuselage drawing. The clamp is welded to the tube under the seat and floor boards. Pictures posted in this thread.But that is where the rear heater is. What am I missing here? Isn't the tube under the heater? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/0c90125bda1597c3d3027de485c8a409.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/9448d3cb9de915171dd526ea647f3fa5.jpg

Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk

Steve Pierce
12-16-2019, 07:13 AM
The welded on fitting in the later models requires strap so the rear seat heat doesn't cook the belts. There is a picture on post #27 of this thread of haw a clamp on version was done on a Clipper.

JPerkins
12-16-2019, 11:07 AM
This is what it looks like, hole in seat rail bracket is where heat vents. The two white arms are the seatbelts extenders to keep them from melting/baking. 16132

Sent from my SM-G930V using ShortWingPipers.Org mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=95463)

krwill
12-16-2019, 02:05 PM
This is what it looks like, hole in seat rail bracket is where heat vents. The two white arms are the seatbelts extenders to keep them from melting/baking. 16132

Sent from my SM-G930V using ShortWingPipers.Org mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=95463)Awesome, just what I needed to see! So the mounting tab is right where my heater is; that's what i thought from looking at it. Guess I'll make new grate that has clearance for the extenders to pass thru. Just seamed odd that it was blocked by the heater but I wasn't reading anything on it.

Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk

Steve Pierce
12-16-2019, 02:10 PM
That is why I liked the way it was done in post 27, off to either side.

mmoyle
12-16-2019, 06:12 PM
I think this is the OEM set up?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/6407e2880877e7db826006a8d21aa8ce.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Steve Pierce
12-16-2019, 06:48 PM
I think this is the OEM set up?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/6407e2880877e7db826006a8d21aa8ce.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Not that I have ever seen nor have I seen a drawing as such either.

mmoyle
12-16-2019, 07:08 PM
Not that I have ever seen nor have I seen a drawing as such either.

Bought them off eBay...was supposably off a PA22?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Steve Pierce
12-16-2019, 07:13 PM
Bought them off eBay...was supposably off a PA22?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Piper used a steel strap, never saw Piper used swedged balls on anything of our vintage.

stevesaircraft(Bri)
12-16-2019, 11:42 PM
Piper used a steel strap, never saw Piper used swedged balls on anything of our vintage.

I believe some PA-28’s had them on the rear seats...

Brian

Edit... quick search came up with a pair at Dawson..

https://aircraftpartsandsalvage.com/aircraft-parts/airframe/general-airframe/piper-pa-28-cherokee-seat-belt-attach-cable-pair-2/



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

krwill
12-17-2019, 12:29 AM
That is why I liked the way it was done in post 27, off to either side.

I do like how clean it is, just it looks like there is about a 1" gap between the two clamps. I'll have to look and see how big of an angle the extenders would have to be spread to in order to clear the heater.

Lots of good knowledge to be gleamed from here!

blue44
01-08-2021, 07:25 AM
Anyone know the outside diameter of the fuselage tube at the rear of the pilot seat ( PA-16 ) ? Shown in post 27 ( on page 21 for me ) in this thread. Thought I might use a clamp loop from Wicks to mount individual lap belts. Gonna have to pull the seat and floor eventually but still capitalizing on nice January days... Thanks !

18415

Steve Pierce
01-08-2021, 09:05 AM
Anyone know the outside diameter of the fuselage tube at the rear of the pilot seat ( PA-16 ) ? Shown in post 27 ( on page 21 for me ) in this thread. Thought I might use a clamp loop from Wicks to mount individual lap belts. Gonna have to pull the seat and floor eventually but still capitalizing on nice January days... Thanks !

18415
Just measured one and it is 1". That is the rear spar carry-thru tube behind the pilot's head.

dgapilot
01-08-2021, 09:35 AM
Anyone know the outside diameter of the fuselage tube at the rear of the pilot seat ( PA-16 ) ? Shown in post 27 ( on page 21 for me ) in this thread. Thought I might use a clamp loop from Wicks to mount individual lap belts. Gonna have to pull the seat and floor eventually but still capitalizing on nice January days... Thanks !

18415

The original cross tube under the rear seat is only 5/8x.035, and not strong enough to attach a center seat belt attach point. It wont provide sufficient strength in an accident and doesn’t comply with the CAR 3 crash requirements. In later TriPacers, it was increased to 1 1/8x.049. On my PA-16, I’m increasing it to 1x.035 as that just barely gets a positive margin with a 6g impact with two 170 lb occupants in the back, yet keeps the weight low.

Mis read your original post, I thought you were referring to the rear seat. For the front seat, there is the cross tube with an offset V coming from the front. Weld in a short tube that goes longitudinal from the cross tube to the one leg of the V and then weld in an attach bracket to that new tube, or fabricate a clamp from .090 material. The clamp you shoe doesn’t have sufficient material for the shear forces for a seat belt loaded to 6g with two 170 lb occupants in the front. As I recall, all those tubes are also 5/8x.035, but with the V bracing it will withstand the loads.

If you search, I think you will find pictures of the installation in Gilbert’s Clipper.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

dgapilot
01-08-2021, 09:47 AM
I think this is the OEM set up?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/6407e2880877e7db826006a8d21aa8ce.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

You might want to review AD 60-05-03, that AD required seat belt extensions for airplanes with the rear heat.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Gilbert Pierce
01-08-2021, 11:22 AM
Clipper modification for front split seat belts.

blue44
01-08-2021, 04:28 PM
thanks for all the replies, don't think I can ask anyone to weld anything into a covered airframe. Steve if you could measure that cross piece in Gilbert's photo ( or if somebody knows the diameter ), looks bigger than 5/8". That would get me started. Sorry I wasn't specific enough the first time. I need the cross bar just behind and under the PA-16 pilot bench... Cheers !

Gilbert Pierce
01-08-2021, 07:21 PM
The ShortWing drawing CD lists the cross tube behind the seat that my seat belt tab is attached to is P/N 11567-61 3/4" dia. 0.049" wall.
The diagonal the other end of the tab is attached to is p/n 11857-72 and it is also 3/4" dia. 0.035" wall.

blue44
01-09-2021, 05:06 PM
thanks Gilbert... :)

blue44
12-13-2021, 08:39 AM
Anyone have any experience with Aircraft Belts Inc. ? They appear to have an easy to configure three-point - 20059Cheers !

Glen Geller
12-17-2021, 01:52 PM
Anyone have any experience with Aircraft Belts Inc. ? They appear to have an easy to configure three-point - 20059Cheers !

Hi Donn,
Where and how would the upper end of that shoulder strap attach to the airframe?

There are a few commonly used shoulder belt that secure to a structural member above/behind each front seat passenger via a slit cut in the headliner, with Y or H straps that break both of your shoulders instead of just one!
You will find many posts here discussing those. I personally feel that Y/H is a superior design compared to the single diagonal automobile style.
With Y/H style shoulder restraints, it's better to have slider/adjusters on both parts of the lap belts, so you can center the buckle and related parts and not saw a groove into your neck in flight.

GG

akflyer
12-17-2021, 06:05 PM
When needed you will roll right out of that 3 point, been there, and have the tee shirt. If you are going to install a shoulder harness go 4 point or don't bother.

blue44
12-17-2021, 08:07 PM
secure to a structural member above/behind each front seat passenger

GG

That was my plan Glen, was hoping to reduce clutter using the single shoulder belt. A zillion road hours ( and a bunch of air hours ) in three point harnesses. Only one test on the road, none in the plane. No doubt four points would be ideal, but some car guys say the three point can cause less collateral injuries. Think the shoulder belts will secure to the crossbar outboard of the centerline ( control cables in the middle ) and cross over as in a Cessna. Have to stick the boroscope up there to see what in the actual heck is going on. Hey just getting individual lap belts will be a win... Cheers

dgapilot
12-17-2021, 08:29 PM
That was my plan Glen, was hoping to reduce clutter using the single shoulder belt. A zillion road hours ( and a bunch of air hours ) in three point harnesses. Only one test on the road, none in the plane. No doubt four points would be ideal, but some car guys say the three point can cause less collateral injuries. Think the shoulder belts will secure to the crossbar outboard of the centerline ( control cables in the middle ) and cross over as in a Cessna. Have to stick the boroscope up there to see what in the actual heck is going on. Hey just getting individual lap belts will be a win... Cheers

You need to add a short tube in the center below the front seat for a lap belt anchor. If you put individual belts in the rear, you need to increase the size of the cross tube under the rear seat. That 5/8 - .035 wall tube will not take any crash loads.

I see your at Sky Acres, I used to work for Styles years ago!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

blue44
12-18-2021, 07:57 AM
I see your at Sky Acres, I used to work for Styles years ago!



Probably will just put a new belt in the back, have only used that seat once for an oldster who couldn't climb in front. Would like to lighten that ridiculously heavy seat pad though...

Stop by sometime, a new and very good restaurant is open Fri-Sun, and enough x-winds for everybody... :)

Steve Pierce
12-18-2021, 08:01 AM
Read a report some time ago that proved the 3 point was safer than the 4 point. I will have to see if I can find it. I was rather surprised.

akflyer
12-18-2021, 10:18 AM
Read a report some time ago that proved the 3 point was safer than the 4 point. I will have to see if I can find it. I was rather surprised.

To a degree, they can be. A 4 point that is tight in the shoulders will let you submarine under the lab belt, the 3 point will allow your body to fold forward and the lap belt holds you. If you adjust the 4 point to be loose enough in the shoulders to let your body fold forward, yet tight enough that you can't eat the dash, it will allow the lap belt to do it's job. I have eaten dirt in a 3 point and a 4 point and I know which one I prefer by a long shot!

Steve Pierce
12-19-2021, 08:57 AM
From reading this it seems the location of a single diagonal shoulder harness is much more critical. https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_21-34.pdf