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mike_in_mn
08-01-2011, 03:08 PM
Im in the very slow process of restoring a PA22/20. Im currently trying to get all three of the doors (front back and baggage) complete so I can feel like I have accomplished something. I want to get the metal work finished and all the latches etc done and then install new windows. What do folks use to seal the window? Do you use a foam tape or silicon sealant? Its not at all clear what I should use.
Thanks in advance for your input.
Mike
P.S. Anyone near 21D with a PA22 / 20 that they could let me look at from time to time would be much appreciated.

mike mcs repair
08-02-2011, 01:41 AM
silicone, after painting.. tape off just like you would to apply a color paint stripe, remove tape right away..

JohnW
08-02-2011, 06:45 AM
I STRONGLY disagree with using silicone (Sorry, Mike...truly. I just feel that strongly about it). It's crap, it doesn't do the job you want from it, it's the "wrong stuff" chemically, and it is RIDICULOUS for the next guy to remove. The "right stuff" is available from LPAero. It's a "tar" tape, never ever hardens up in place, is a relative JOY to work with, simply DOES NOT EVER LEAK, it reasonable to work with and forty years from now will still be acceptably NOT difficult for the "next guy" to remove. Yes, it is a tad "too good" when it comes time to restore the trim pieces (hangs on unbelievably well) but still it's scared shirtless when you go after it with lacquer thinner and wipes right off. Silicone sux, and the "next guy" will damn your eyes for using it (too bad it never turns out that the guy that put it there is the guy that gets screwed by having to remove it). You can trim it on the backing (if desired) with [even] Kid Scissors, and when you are all done, even the most unfortunate "whoops!" cleans right up (fingers, too). It doesn't kill you to work with it, and is environmentally the right choice.

Next time, I'll try to be a little more CLEAR about how I actually FEEL about "sealing" with silicone. The tar tape (LPAero calls it "Piper glass sealing tape") is the preferred method. Try it, you'll like it. They don't give it away, but its worth every penny in EVERY respect. Next best product is automotive "ribbon caulk" (there's even a hardware store product known as "TiteSeal" and similar takeoff names -like Mor Tite, et c) that beats silicone hands down. It DOES eventually "dry out", however, unlike the Bear ribbon caulk. DO NOT get the new "epoxy stuff", but the age old stuff that Bear made famous and NAPA still sells. Comes gray or black with four or five or so ribbons tacked together, on a roll between backing paper. The ribbons can put it between two pieces of wax paper and rolled out with a kitchen wooden roller to make thin tape-like strips. Just a bit more tedious than using the tar tape, but better than trying to remove silicone from a windshield bottom strip twenty years down the road.

[EDIT] Piper Black Tar Tape 1/16" x 1" x 50' SP-TT50

Steve Pierce
08-02-2011, 10:15 AM
From LP Aeroplastics. http://www.lpaero.com/accessories.html
I (http://www.lpaero.com/accessories.html) have been using the Bostik 1100.

Gilbert Pierce
08-02-2011, 11:32 AM
Amen to Johnw's feeling about silicone. Detroit loves it because they can squirt it on in place of proper gaskets. It has no place in an airplane.

ysifly2
08-02-2011, 09:55 PM
I used a butyl 'tape' that I found at a local RV store. They had a couple different sizes.
Got the idea from an EAA hints video... http://bcove.me/lepkt3he


Bryan

mike mcs repair
08-02-2011, 10:27 PM
I guess its like a political thing.. people get told it's bad, and accept/believe it....

i have heard the grumblings, but NEVER in almost 25 years seen a single problem, many of my jobs are 15-20 years old now...

all I have ever used, and seen used by the high end shops is silicone for windows....

the only place it is not good is across the top of a cessna windshield, since the cabin slides side to side to much for any dried sealer to hold....

I do use that 3m strip caulk under windshield strips, but that's not to seal the window in just to seal strips to the boot cowl......

Steve Pierce
08-03-2011, 07:14 AM
Mike, Have you not ever had any adhesion issues with silicone? I did and started using the Bostik urethane upon LP Aero Plastics recommendation.

mike mcs repair
08-03-2011, 09:24 AM
Mike, Have you not ever had any adhesion issues with silicone? I did and started using the Bostik urethane upon LP Aero Plastics recommendation.

no problems, but I only use dow corning stuff in the dark green tubes from AIH, maybe its a brand issue...... I don't like much of the stuff lowes and home depot sells...

JohnW
08-04-2011, 06:57 AM
Mike, there are silicones and there are silicones. When you say something like: "silicone, after painting", MOST people without vast aircraft experience think of the clear or white stuff that Lowes sells for caulking your bathtub. Many others think of "blue silicone" or "red silicone", or the "high tech copper" colored [crap] that hang from a hook in a discount auto parts store. Some may even outdo that and think you are saying "Krylon first {no primer necessary}".

There is a Lycoming approved "silicone" (GE RTV-102) that is approved for crankcase parting lines at overhaul. It is a completely different animal from GE tub and tile caulk. I'm POSITIVE that you know this, but you need to be cognizant that the person(s) you are talking to MIGHT NOT HAVE THE SAME EXPERIENCE as you (some, maybe more). You wouldn't KNOWINGLY use a product (a second time, for sure) that obviously was not designed for the task of sealing machined surfaces built to NOT have a gasket! But RTV-102 is WHITE from the tube, and could be mistaken by the uninitiated as "being the same thing".

Hey! I GOT some "dow corning stuff in the dark green tubes" (but what's a AIH? and is that relevant?). DC 4!!! Is THAT what you mean? That's a silicone, it's clear, and it's dielectric. (Jeesh!!!) You getting my meaning yet? I'm trying to learn something here. You are making us "pull teeth".

So, howsabout you zero in on "what stuff" you DO use for sealing windows on lightplanes? Like by Manufacturer's Part Number (or something we can USE!). Maybe even some of us that DO THIS on a daily basis for fifty years may learn of a "better product".

P.o.P.
08-04-2011, 09:40 AM
Amen to Johnw's feeling about silicone. Detroit loves it because they can squirt it on in place of proper gaskets. It has no place in an airplane.

Not quite true.

Some engines & Constant Speed Props are sealed with the PROPER type.

My FIRST experience with GE RTV (Room Temperature Vulcanizing) was sealing the Afterburner of an F-100C.

Throttle Pusher
08-04-2011, 09:23 PM
I agree with JohnW
silicone has no place on a GA airplane. We did use it on the jets at Boeing, but the application are different.
When you use silicone it absorbs into paint and metal,and other proper sealants wont stick after you use silicone.
In some applications you might as well throw out the parts you used it on, and start over. At Boeing you never use the tools you used on silicone on any other sealant because of contamination.You cant uncontaminated a tool thats been in contact with silicone.

Ken

Tri-Pod
11-16-2012, 06:42 PM
Good day all,
Cleaning up the parts, getting ready to install my new windshield.
The old black sealant was pretty much all over, probably been done a few times and never really cleaned up.
Hard to tell exactly where it is actually supposed to be applied.
Attaching a little sketch, looks like the caulk should go in 2 places ... between the INNER PIECE and the cowl, and between the INNER and OUTER PIECES (both sides of the bolts). Depicted as RED in the pic. (hey, I'm a pilot .... NOT an artist :icon_wink:)
I have the black ribbon caulk mentioned earlier in this forum.

Thanks for guidance and verification.
Regards,
TP4471

Steve Pierce
11-17-2012, 08:51 AM
I lay a strip in between the two trim pieces and then use an awl to make a hole in the sealant for the screws. It squishes out and seals.

Tri-Pod
11-17-2012, 09:30 AM
........ between the two trim pieces It squishes out and seals.

So it is not necessary to put any against the cowl (under the inner trim piece) I was not sure if there would be enough to squish out and seal along the front edge.

Thanks Steve,
TP

Steve Pierce
11-17-2012, 09:56 AM
I normally have to scrape the excess off the windshield and the trim piece from it squishing out.

Tri-Pod
11-17-2012, 03:38 PM
PERFECT !

Thanks again Steve

NRW-Aviator
11-21-2012, 05:29 AM
Steve, how do you seal between window and outer trim?

Steve Pierce
11-21-2012, 07:19 AM
I use Bostix 1100 Urethane sealant. Here is a discussion on the subject. http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/showthread.php?7090-Window-sealent&highlight=sealant

Steve Pierce
01-16-2013, 10:23 AM
I use this 3M Rope Caulk on the frame at the boot cowl and up the sides of the fuselage installing the retaining screws through the caulk. I get it at the local auto parts store.

http://3mcollision.com/3m-strip-calk-08578-black.html

http://3mcollision.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/300x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/0/8/08578.jpg

DougG
01-16-2013, 05:02 PM
Gee, I was all excited that JohnW was back then I saw the date of the post.
I can't remember name of stuff I used but sure it simliar to John's recommendation, it's the replacement for zinc chromate tape used on floats etc, never dries out but very expensive!
Doug.

pa20
06-17-2013, 03:41 PM
What is a good solvent to remove the remains of the butyl tape? I was going to try isopropyl alcohol, and maybe a citrus based "Goof Off". It seems that any of the petroleum based products could cause damage in the longterm.
Thanks!

Steve Pierce
06-17-2013, 05:25 PM
I use 3M General Purpose Adhesive Cleaner. It is listed on the 3M strip caulk I use for clean up and is available at most auto parts stores. Just installed a new windshield and it worked great on the windshield and the new painted parts.
http://3mcollision.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/300x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/0/8/08984.jpg

Specially blended solvent for removal of light paint overspray, adhesive residue, wax, grease, tree sap, dirt, road tar, oil and bugs in aerosol form. Quickly removes waxes, greases, oil and tars. Will not harm most thoroughly cured automotive paint, vinyls, or fabrics when properly used.

pa20
06-18-2013, 12:54 AM
Thanks, Steve. I will pick up some tomorrow at the local paint store.

Tri-Pod
10-04-2013, 08:39 PM
I use this 3M Rope Caulk on the frame at the boot cowl and up the sides of the fuselage installing the retaining screws through the caulk. I get it at the local auto parts store.

http://3mcollision.com/3m-strip-calk-08578-black.html




What is safe to use for cleanup with this gooey stuff ?
Safe for enamel paint and the window.

Thanks

Steve Pierce
10-06-2013, 06:07 PM
I use 3M General Purpose Adhesive Cleaner.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcTVv0uqLLym7lTRea77Z7RlD-qWfAdgoL7_gMyaPa9YW8sam3HVDKhurV08LoV095BWcywP_tWJ&usqp=CAE

puddlejumper
11-17-2013, 09:18 PM
PRC Desoto 890B1/2, works great on Lear Jets

51-pa22
07-14-2014, 11:48 PM
Dang

i was hoping John was back.

now off for some window seal for the back windows.
Will also look for top windshield seal.
Right now before looking, thinking of a 1-1/2" wide piece of .015-.025 thick piece of red silicon under top cap.
covering the windshield ad area. Hope you know what I memean

51-pa22
:smokin.gif
http://165thbdhr.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/smokin.gif
6733

Clayton Harper
07-15-2014, 08:02 AM
My buddy at the metal building company fixed me up with some sealer they use to seal between "R Panels". It's grey flat and come on a paper back roll. I used it because I could get it, worked great. What I really liked was some Zinc Chromate Tape that LP Aero sold, Oh well, no more chromate.

Gilbert Pierce
07-15-2014, 09:46 AM
I guess I am only one who uses no window sealant and has no window leaks.

The windshield bottom fairing is designed such that when the inner and outer piece are properly installed no water runsi in the bottom. The only possible entry point would be around the screws. I installed nut plates and have seen seepage around them.

I remade the fabric support trim strip at the top of the windshield to it make wider where it overlaps the top of the windshield. This allows it to shed water down the windshield when the aircraft is parked in the rain.

pinkgas
07-15-2014, 12:02 PM
I was taught that when one gives a preflight safety briefing to passengers, "If you need to get out of the airplane and the door is jammed, and I am not available to help you, you can kick out the plexiglass windows and escape." I know that the tar tape allows this, dunno about silicone. Certainly never use screws.

Gilbert Pierce
07-15-2014, 12:43 PM
I was taught that when one gives a preflight safety briefing to passengers, "If you need to get out of the airplane and the door is jammed, and I am not available to help you, you can kick out the plexiglass windows and escape." I know that the tar tape allows this, dunno about silicone. Certainly never use screws.

Hmmm! Windshields are held in with screws, bottom sides and also the top if you have fabric reinforcing trim strip installed.
The door windows are also held in by trim strips screwed to the steel door frames. Kicking any window in my airplane will surely break it.

pinkgas
07-15-2014, 07:10 PM
This was in my 1965 PA-28. I helped my A&P replace my windshield and one side window, no screws, tar strip only. A cover strip was screwed over the joint. I trained in a Colt, have 90 hours in a Tri-Pacer and was told the same thing. Never seen one of those apart but I am sure you have!

51-pa22
07-15-2014, 10:06 PM
Started out for Steve's 3M Rope Caulk or Clayton R Panel seal and was pre-empted by smoked $50 blu-ray player.
Ended up with the cheapest solution to get the system back TODAY, was a $230 for a 1000W RCA sound system with a $80 blu-ray player......
the tape or panel seal would have done a much better job yet would not have been able to show me later what I did.


http://165thbdhr.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/smokin.gif

Now to worry about flex oil lines above or below the cylinders.
might be time for a new thread.

rocket
07-15-2014, 11:43 PM
51,
rope calk windows would allow one to punch them out if your ashtray caught on fire.

New thread: smoking or non smoking.

I like the black polysulfide stuff myself as it is self healing/sealing.

On the 100/206 spam cans I glue them in with proseal; but his a floatplane thing mostly.


Rocket

ps. nothing more self righteous then an ex smoker... :/

mmoyle
04-23-2015, 09:48 PM
Need clarification for sealing the right side "D" window. Slide into position, tape off the fabric and the window then work a small bead of urethane window sealant into the gap. This is the same stuff used to instal automotive glass.....Or... Have something like pro seal...but used to seal electrical connections submerged in water.....or?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

51-pa22
04-24-2015, 01:33 AM
That RH window is a rather tight fit without ant extra sealing material.
Anything you put in will make it that more difficult to remove the next time.
You might consider som old school sealing material applied after you instal the window.
Think bees wax.
Seals, yet, is removable, will not harm paint,plastic.or metal.
51-pa22
8425

mmoyle
04-24-2015, 03:01 AM
That makes sense. I have a new toilet bowl gasket...plenty of bees wax...could heat, fill a 5 ml syringe and use an 18 gauge needle to put the wax exactly where it's needed... Wonder what the melting point is?...... And of it would run down the window on a hot day tied down on fresh asphalt? Like I can find that around here!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

51-pa22
04-24-2015, 03:22 AM
Beeswax has a relatively low melting point range of 62 to 64 °C (144 to 147 °F). If beeswax is heated above 85 °C (185 °F) discoloration occurs. The flash point of beeswax is 204.4 °C (400 °F).
Beeswax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeswax

And thanks for the reminder I had been looking for about 1/2 cup of bees wax for wadding.
And didnt want to buy 1lb to 5lb min order.
And I had it all along. Go figure!

Mind you
After a few years in the lower 48 it will tend to flow after parking on the ramp for months on end. Now I don't think piper put anything in that joint.

Steve Pierce
04-24-2015, 06:57 AM
I mask the window and the fabric around it and sel with the urethane sealant recommended by LP Aeroplatics.

andya
04-24-2015, 08:53 AM
My window was installed tight and not sure what they used for sealant but when it comes out it , the channel will likely have to be ground out.

Dwain
04-24-2015, 01:15 PM
OK Guys,
Clarify this for me. I need to reseal the space between the top windshield and the edge of the metal "transition" piece from wing to wing as well as where it meets the wings. The PO used what looks like white latex caulk. It lasted a few years but needs to be replaced. Thanks - Dwain

Prosaria
04-24-2015, 04:41 PM
The last guy that installed mine used a boat load of silicon. I didn't think the widow was coming out without a grinder...

wyandot jim
04-24-2015, 05:55 PM
Mine didn't have any on it. BUT the windshield and frames must have had 10# on it. I DO NOT USE SILICON ON ANYTHING. If someone comes into my hanger with a tube I will beat them to a GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO with it. :-) Jim ( the other one)



The last guy that installed mine used a boat load of silicon. I didn't think the widow was coming out without a grinder...

Prosaria
04-24-2015, 06:03 PM
Mine didn't have any on it. BUT the windshield and frames must have had 10# on it. I DO NOT USE SILICON ON ANYTHING. If someone comes into my hanger with a tube I will beat them to a GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO with it. :-) Jim ( the other one)

Every piece of glass on my plane had gobs of it: Windshield, skylight, side windows, doors, holes in the boot cowl... Apparently it makes a good firewall sealant too. The guy must have owned a silicon factory.

Steve Pierce
04-25-2015, 07:29 AM
I use Bostik 1100 a urethane sealant on all the glass.

Jeff Pralle
04-26-2015, 10:59 AM
Used to use zinc chromate putty/ tape no longer available. Used to get a replace ment that was black from Glacier Aircraft Parts in Palmer AK cannot remember the name...

Here is a link to some 3m "tape" looks the same.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/windowsealant.php

Silly putty(silicon) is a pain in the a$$ (yes $$$$$$ if you are paying shop rate to remove it)

i have used adhesive backed felt with good results at rebuild if all your trim strips fit tight and flat.

idahopacer
09-15-2015, 08:35 AM
Ok I,ve searched and found alot of info on sealing the windshield with putties and other sealants but nowhere have I seen any mention of felt tape. Is it not used anymore or never used on these Pipers? The channel at the top seems like it could use a little fill to tighten the fit up.

Bruce
09-15-2015, 02:12 PM
I used the sealant they use to put windows in RV's.

wmvosburgh
03-06-2018, 03:34 PM
So I'm doing my best to sift through the different types of sealant I might use when I replace the skylight on the pacer--its the larger of the two skylight sizes from Steve's Aircraft. The stc recommends silicone, but I've also read about bostik 1100 in this thread as well as Piper Black Tar Tape and others from LP Aeroplastics. Spruce has the 3M strip caulk...
Anyone have a recommendation particular to skylight installation? I'm a bit bewildered by all the options.

Steve Pierce
03-06-2018, 04:17 PM
LP makes windows and sells the Bostik 1100 urethane or you can buy it in most hardware stores, it sticks to the skylight material well so that is what I use on all the glass. The 3M caulk sealant can be used in the groove between materials, is messy and won't work in all areas.

wmvosburgh
04-15-2018, 08:43 PM
So I finally got down to business and started removing the old skylight to make way for the new. I didn't expect this to be turn your head and walk away project, but so far I'm having more fun than I initially anticipated.
The last installer put a white vinyl tape or seal type material over the edge of the skylight and the wing root fairing. This was extended all the way down fuselage to the end of the fairing. Even with heat, a putty knife, and kind words, I couldn't get the stuff up without pulling all the finish off...right down to bare fabric in places.
I've got myself some bostik 1100 as well as some piper black tar tape for the install. It seems as though the previous installer used a black caulk like substance throughout in addition to some crumbly white caulk stuff at the top of the windshield.
Are there areas of the install that would benefit from having one material over the other? I've removed as much of the old sealant/adhesive as possible but I've still got a little wire brushing, priming, and painting to do in the areas where water rusted the frame a bit. 13349

Steve Pierce
04-16-2018, 06:22 AM
I use the 1100 to seal around the edges of the glass after installation.

wmvosburgh
04-16-2018, 07:25 AM
I use the 1100 to seal around the edges of the glass after installation.

Thanks--nothing under the edges of the glass? Previous install had sealant under every conceivable contact point. I'm wondering if this didn't allow the glass to flex and contributed to the cracking. Might have also been the 10 years since install?

Do you use any sort of grommet under the fastening hardware? Quite a bit of leaking under the old fasteners. Previously there was a circular piece of plexiglass glued to the large sheet of glass with sealant. I'll get a photo of this when I head to the shop this morning.

Thanks much for your advice on all this. I'd like to get this install sorted out cleanly for the summer on the lake.

Steve Pierce
04-17-2018, 06:11 AM
Piper used felt washers on the Super Cub. I have punched out and actually found some large area rubber washers at Lowes that I used on mine.

Southern Aero
04-18-2018, 11:31 AM
FWIW ......... I use the 3M strip caulk too, molds in real nice when wiped down with a reducer after in place. Also, I use a 1/4 tubing, or appropriate size, in each hole as a "bushing" between bolt/screw and glass. Cut a little longer than glass thickness. ....... lets glass "float" a little when fuselage flexes. Seems to seal better too. Use a Unibit to open up holes in glass, never a drill. And make sure holes are chamfered, the Unibit does a good job on this too. Have never had a crack from a bolt hole using this method.

mholton63
10-24-2022, 12:54 PM
I have the lower front wind screen piece sealed to the fuselage using the black 3M strip calk. Not sure I want to use that on the plexiglass and outer trim piece.
Does anyone have a good way to seal the front wind screen to the outer trim and up the side and top?

Thanks,
Mark
N3320Z

Steve Pierce
10-25-2022, 07:16 AM
Mark, merged your thread with another on the subject. Bostik 1100 works great.

mholton63
10-25-2022, 01:01 PM
Mark, merged your thread with another on the subject. Bostik 1100 works great.

Thanks Steve.
It say's "sealant/adhesive" will I be able to easily remove it when needed?

Steve Pierce
10-25-2022, 01:33 PM
It isn't too bad. Piper just used the tacky tape under the strips.

mholton63
10-26-2022, 01:00 PM
Amen to Johnw's feeling about silicone. Detroit loves it because they can squirt it on in place of proper gaskets. It has no place in an airplane.

Just to add a comment, silicone is extremely corrosive and paint doesn't play well with it.

Jim
10-28-2022, 07:40 AM
Hi,

Never heard silicone was corrosive, but.....
https://www.allmetalsfab.com/galvanic-reaction-caulk/

Silicone, in my experience, sticks best on the things you need to remove it from.

Gregor6712
11-03-2022, 02:23 AM
What do folks use to seal the window? Do you use a foam tape or silicon sealant? Its not at all clear what I should use.

If You are interested, here You can find a detailed report of my restoration work on a Wassmer 51A.

http://www.drgaida.de/DEHJV/EHJV.pdf

The Windows - replacing process starts from page 173. I used APP - PU 50 to seal the windows.

21257


(http://www.drgaida.de/DEHJV/EHJV.pdf)

mholton63
05-01-2023, 03:05 PM
I guess I am only one who uses no window sealant and has no window leaks.

The windshield bottom fairing is designed such that when the inner and outer piece are properly installed no water runsi in the bottom. The only possible entry point would be around the screws. I installed nut plates and have seen seepage around them.

I remade the fabric support trim strip at the top of the windshield to it make wider where it overlaps the top of the windshield. This allows it to shed water down the windshield when the aircraft is parked in the rain.


I'm with you on this. All I have is the 3M rope sealant between the window and frame......No Leaks, and looks great.

Southern Aero
05-01-2023, 04:06 PM
Yeah, I think we are talking about the same thing............ 3M 08575 "Strip Caulk"