Flying the Piper PA-20

[vapilot]

I hope I am in the right forum, but I am seeking some guidance regarding flying a Piper PA-20. I have been looking at taildraggers to purchase and find that the Pacer seems to be within my budget window, for the most part. When I mention this to others, sometimes I get the look and they say that's a "squirrely " little airplane. Do they know something that I should be aware of? I know it has a short fuselage; does that factor into it? I was hoping that someone might be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Thanks,
Rick

[Stephen]

Rick, The PA-20 or PA-22/20 are great planes to fly. Do you have any tail dragger time? If not find a good instructor, maybe someone from your area has recommendations. Also, if you find a Pacer that you want to buy, get an experienced Pacer pilot to fly it before you purchase it, just to make sure it fly like it should. There are a number of pilots here who have learned to fly in a Pacer.

[vapilot]

Stephen, thanks for the advice. I have minimal tailwheel time; enough to get an endorsement. There is one in OH that I am interested in, if I can get out there to get eyes on it. Finding an experienced Pacer pilot might be challenging, as I don't know of anybody out of my airport that has time in one, but I will ask around.


Rick, The PA-20 or PA-22/20 are great planes to fly. Do you have any tail dragger time? If not find a good instructor, maybe someone from your area has recommendations. Also, if you find a Pacer that you want to buy, get an experienced Pacer pilot to fly it before you purchase it, just to make sure it fly like it should. There are a number of pilots here who have learned to fly in a Pacer.

[RLMessenger]

ask around on this site, plenty of shortwing owners all over the country that are willing to help.

[Pacerfgoe]

Yes they can be a handful if you don't stay on top of them. The short fuselage combined with narrow gear can get away from you in a hurry if you let it.
That said, they are wonderful little airplanes that are very capable, fun to fly, and inexpensive. There is a wide gear STC for the pacer, which should make them more stable, but I have no experience with one of these.
If you don't have any tailwheel time, I might suggest finding a taylorcraft, or j3 to learn on,(they are easier because of a longer fuselage) then transition to the pacer. Flying a tailwheel is not hard, it just requires attention at all times.
You should see if someone on here is close to you and maybe a ride along is possible, that may put you at ease.
Pacers are great airplanes.....


Man....you guys type too fast

[Bob Ohio]

Where is the pacer in Ohio. There is a pacer owner in the Columbus area and is an experienced tail wheel instructor.

Bob Southern Ohio Tri-Pacer

[tim kerns]

I have made it to16 hrs total time in the pacer so far and my opinion is that it is a great machine, Granted it has ate my lunch a few times. I guess my advice right now is to keep it tight in the pattern because of sink rate. Keep it pointed straight on landings, and keep flying it until it reaches the chalks, other than that it is a cool airplane.

[Grantmac]

I transitioned into my clipper with under 5hrs previous TW time in a Citabria.
Yes its harder to fly then a Citabria, but it is also extremely honest. Just like initially learning to fly TW required smaller rudder movements at greater frequency, flying a shortwing requires another step-up in skills. Flying it off some grass or dirt the first time is a solid plan.

Important thing to look for is past damage history involving the landing gear, if the alignment is not correct then they can be a real handful.

-Grant

[d.grimm]

Let me know if I can help. I have some experience in this area.
Dave

[Frank Green]

As mentioned there are 2 landing gears on the Pacers. The original PA 20s had a "narrow" gear and originated the reputation. Some were changed to a "wide" gear and the 22/20 conversions used the "wide" gear. Our 20 has the narrow gear and it is all I have flown. Father in law has flown both as a friend of his changed his years ago after an "incident" and it made quite a difference in the airplane. I have flown other tail wheel airplanes and they seem easier but like I said I learned to fly tailwheel in a "narrow" gear but I had a good instructor, father in law, and I think that would be important with either gear.

[vapilot]

Bob, it is located outside ov Cleveland at 5A1. I talked to the guys last night and if the weather holds, I am going to meet him halfway and get eyes on.


Where is the pacer in Ohio. There is a pacer owner in the Columbus area and is an experienced tail wheel instructor.

Bob Southern Ohio Tri-Pacer

[vapilot]

Good to know, Tim. Thanks for the advice!


I have made it to16 hrs total time in the pacer so far and my opinion is that it is a great machine, Granted it has ate my lunch a few times. I guess my advice right now is to keep it tight in the pattern because of sink rate. Keep it pointed straight on landings, and keep flying it until it reaches the chalks, other than that it is a cool airplane.

[vapilot]

Grant, I have 5 hrs in and Champ and 1.8 in a C-120, but have been without an airplane to fly for quite some time. So it will be like learning all over again, I suspect.


I transitioned into my clipper with under 5hrs previous TW time in a Citabria.
Yes its harder to fly then a Citabria, but it is also extremely honest. Just like initially learning to fly TW required smaller rudder movements at greater frequency, flying a shortwing requires another step-up in skills. Flying it off some grass or dirt the first time is a solid plan.

Important thing to look for is past damage history involving the landing gear, if the alignment is not correct then they can be a real handful.

-Grant

[vapilot]

Dave, I just might take you up on that. Thanks, for the offer!


Let me know if I can help. I have some experience in this area.
Dave

[vapilot]

Frank, I talked with the guy last night and asked him if it had the narrow or wide gear. He said that it had a ground up restore when he purchased it and that a Univair landing gear was installed, which he believes is the wide gear. I hope it is. If the weather works out, I will get to look at the airplane and logs this coming weekend.


As mentioned there are 2 landing gears on the Pacers. The original PA 20s had a "narrow" gear and originated the reputation. Some were changed to a "wide" gear and the 22/20 conversions used the "wide" gear. Our 20 has the narrow gear and it is all I have flown. Father in law has flown both as a friend of his changed his years ago after an "incident" and it made quite a difference in the airplane. I have flown other tail wheel airplanes and they seem easier but like I said I learned to fly tailwheel in a "narrow" gear but I had a good instructor, father in law, and I think that would be important with either gear.

[smcnutt]

We bought our PA-22/20 after I had only about 6-7 hours in a 172 and I got my ticket in it. Had a real good TW instructor that had about 18,000 hours TW time. Since I learned in it I don't know how it compares to anything else other than what I've been told. I've heard the usual nightmare stories of how they are soooo squirrelly and all that. However, I've never had any problems with it. As for landing on grass, my instructor never had me on grass until I was almost ready to get my ticket. He felt that even though it can cover up some mistakes, I was there to learn how to do it right so I should stick to pavement and learn from my mistakes. Like someone said earlier, keep it straight on landing and keep flying it till the spinny thing up front stops and you will be fine. Good advice no matter what you're flying.

I only have about 175 hours so I'm still a newbie. However, it's a great airplane and I'm very happy with mine.

[Gilbert Pierce]

I had about 15 hours. in a C152 TW conversion, C140, Champ and Citribria. I built a Kit Fox and got my TW endorsement in that.
200 hours in the KF I bought the Clipper. My first landing in the Clipper I thought "gee, I could go to sleep and land this airplane after the KF"

I have had several Cub pilots tell me they bought a Clipper and could never master it. It lands just like a Cub but things just happen a little faster. The Clipper has narrow gear which I have never felt was a problem. It is harder to wheel land then the KF but cross wind landings work out great in a 3 point attitude.

[pa20]

Frank, I talked with the guy last night and asked him if it had the narrow or wide gear. He said that it had a ground up restore when he purchased it and that a Univair landing gear was installed, which he believes is the wide gear. I hope it is. If the weather works out, I will get to look at the airplane and logs this coming weekend.

Yes, the gear on the Univair conversion is wider than the original PA-20 gear.
I have the narrow gear, and have not had any real issues (God, I hope that I am not jinxing myself!). What others have stated is true for any taildragger, but especially the narrow gear Pacer. Proper technique, and don't stop dancing until the music stops is crucial.
Good luck!

[andya]

Dave, I just might take you up on that. Thanks, for the offer!

Dave is quite experienced and could really help your transition if you have the time

[vapilot]

That is good to know and I am sure you've not jinxed yourself!


Yes, the gear on the Univair conversion is wider than the original PA-20 gear.
I have the narrow gear, and have not had any real issues (God, I hope that I am not jinxing myself!). What others have stated is true for any taildragger, but especially the narrow gear Pacer. Proper technique, and don't stop dancing until the music stops is crucial.
Good luck!

[vapilot]

I really appreciate everyone's input, comments and advise. I am new to the forum and really did not expect this level of response. Thanks everyone!

-Rick