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Steve Pierce
05-23-2012, 07:12 AM
I got this email yesterday. After looking at multiple sources I could not find anything so I contacted Clyde Smith. Thought this might help others.


Hi Steve,
I’m preparing to paint trim on my Vagabond (after years of being just plain yellow), and I wonder if you might be able to suggest someone to contact about measurements/dimensions (or a template?) for a fuselage trim stripe (the “fish hook” or “half arrow” style stripe). I’m hoping you might be able to help!
Thank you,
Sparky Barnes Sargent



Steve,

There never was a paint scheme drawing for the Vagabond because they
were all yellow anyway. The one, and only one, that had the stripe
was done specially at the factory. We think it might have been a
prototype design for the 1949 PA-18 Vagabond, but since that program
was cancelled, only one airplane got the stripe.

Clyde


3814

3815

cammons3
05-23-2012, 09:44 AM
...Thought this might help others.
Ironic as I'm currently stripping paint off the FWF metal on ThunderVag (aka Li'l Tweet). Long story, but it should be flying much sooner than (Big) Tweet.
Prior to losing the boot cowl stripe to stripper, I traced both sides. Neither matched, so I guess we can take creative licensing on how we want ours to look. As such, just to add to the confusion, I decided to use:


18" dia arc for the forward section of the "arrow"
6.5" dia arc for the back section.

My stripe will just marry up to what is alread on the door/side fabric.
38213822

pacerman
05-27-2012, 09:28 PM
Is that the correct yellow for the Vagabond? I thought they were Lemon Yellow. Mine is painted Lemon Yellow anyway. It was recovered in about 1980 if I recall correctly from the logs. Joe

cammons3
05-28-2012, 08:04 AM
Is that the correct yellow for the Vagabond?

Not sure, Joe; another hard question that may be require Clyde Smith clarification. I did pick this up from the Cub Forum regarding Randolph's J3 Cub Yellow color (http://www.pipercubforum.com/yellow.htm), but even it may not be correct.

Much like the stripe's existence, I'm unsure where it was decided which "blue" was the proper color when the black/white photo above gives credence to the prototype's stripe having a significantly black shade to it. Anyway, it does allow us to imagine the "correct colors"; and we may not have been correct in any of our assumptions of what these planes should have looked like. They sure are fun flyers though, aren't they?

My buddy is painting his J3 Lemon Yellow, and it looks good, too, if not "correct". As long as no one tells the plane...:wave2:

http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/view_larger_image.php?pid=12671

BrettL
06-01-2012, 12:38 AM
I've reached the following conclusions from my discussions with Clyde Smith and my own research:

All Vagabonds (PA-15 and PA-17) were recorded as being painted "ALL YELLOW" at the factory. My inference from this is that any striping, as shown in the photos above, was done as an accessory to be added to a completed aircraft, rather than an option that could be included on a completed aircraft. I believe Piper offered the Consolidair Model 17 Wheel Fenders, a skull cap propeller spinner, a floor mat, and possibly tie-down fittings in the same manner. My suspicion is that this may have been done to keep the final printed sales price of the Vagabond as small as possible in order to keep the bankers happy during a difficult financial time at Piper, while still offering some options to class up the Vagabonds a bit. Obviously the PA-17 in the photos above had the stripes, pants and spinner, and there may have been a few more that did as well at customer request, even though these are not shown in the factory records.

Piper used Randolph, Titanine, and Interchemical finishes during the production of Vagabonds. You can order an aircraft history from Clyde Smith that should include this information for your particular Vagabond. The yellow was Randolph F-6285 CUB J3 YELLOW, or an equivalent color from Interchemical (MA1140 and/or MA1311), or Titanine (Cub Sport Yellow Shade 74?). I believe the closest color currently available to these is a special color available from Univair. They have a Randolph formula for "Clyde Smith Post War Yellow", which I've found to be a very close match to the original Randolph F-6285. The current Randolph F-6285, since Randolph sold their name and rights to Consolidated Aircraft coatings, is a poor match for the original color. I have been told by both representatives at Randolph and Consolidated that Consolidated did not receive any of Randolph's formulas for the colors, and they simply attempted to copy Randolph's colors using their own formulas.

The blue color for portions of the interior and for external markings (N-numbers) is Randolph "Piper Trainer Blue" Q-1920. I don't know of a source for this color at present. I have found that Ford Acapulco Blue (used on 1967-1969 Mustangs) appears to be a very close match, but may have a have a bit more of an iridescent violet hue than the Piper Trainer Blue.

I'm not sure "Lemon" is a good description for the yellow. The J3 post-war yellow while not as dark as the pre-war yellow still has a bit of an orange hue.

BrettL
06-01-2012, 01:07 AM
Much like the stripe's existence, I'm unsure where it was decided which "blue" was the proper color when the black/white photo above gives credence to the prototype's stripe having a significantly black shade to it.

Curt,

I believe the black appearance of the stripe in the black & white photos may be due to the fine metallic quality of the "Piper Trainer Blue" color. At certain angles it can look quite dark. Both the interior of the firewall and the seat back support tube in my Vagabond are this color and appear to be the original paint. The assumption of the stripe being blue is based on the assumption that Piper would have matched the color of the stripe to the interior and the rest of the exterior markings. Most of the Vagabonds I've seen with blue trim have used either Randolph "Newport Blue" (with a considerably coarser metallic flake and a lighter appearance) or Stits/Polyfiber "Piper Trainer Blue" (also with a lighter appearance) in place of the Randolph "Piper Trainer Blue". I find this common on PA-11s as well.

Brett

BrettL
06-01-2012, 10:52 AM
As far as the dimensions of the stripe, I believe this style stripe was also used on some J-4s and J-5s. My guess would be that when a customer requested a stripe on the Vagabond, they used the old J-4 masks to paint it.

LightFlight
08-12-2013, 10:59 PM
Piper originally used nitrate dope for the J3. This is the darker, more orange shade that Piper called "Lock Haven Yellow". Some time after the war, when the supply of nitrate dope was dwindling, bids went out from Piper for a paint manufacturer to come up with a pigmented yellow butyrate dope that would as closely match the nitrate shade as possible.
None of the companies could match the Lock Haven Yellow exactly, but Randolph was the closest and thus was awarded the contract. This butyrate yellow was a little brighter and more a pure yellow and though Piper continued to refer to it as Lock Haven Yellow, Randolph dubbed it "Piper Cub J-3 Yellow".
So, all J3s up until the change of dope during 1946 was painted with the darker shade which Randolph refers to as "Lock Haven Yellow" (#M-9521), while the butyrate doped J3s and ALL PA-11, 15, 17, 18 and PA-20/22 aircraft were finished with the light butyrate, Randolph's "Piper Cub J-3 Yellow" (#F-6285).
A nice detail: After changing to butyrate dope, Piper couldn't use dope for the boot cowl. The boot cowl had to be painted with enamel, and that is why the butyrate doped J3s (especially from Ponca City, Oklahoma) had a shorter black lightning bolt, ending (starting) behind the boot cowl.
Best regards,
Magnus



After reading this, and looking at my logs, I know I have "Lincoln Fabric finished with Randolph Dopes," but can't seem to find anything on Lincoln Fabrics.

I had a question about the dope too... how would I touch up nicks where the dope/paint has come away? I can see some silver at the edges (silver butyrate?).

Also, if I wanted to have the plane be painted with a new top coat so it was all one nice yellow instead of several yellows all over it from over the years, would I have to use a different topcoat for the metal surfaces versus the fabric ones???

Thanks in advance for any insight!

Joel

Clayton Harper
08-13-2013, 07:00 AM
BrettL, You mentioned in your post that a number of the "PA" aircraft including the 20/22 were painted with "Lock Haven Yellow". I know Piper would have painted an airplane any color to sell it. Does anyone have knowledge of an original yellow Pacer or Tripacer?

Just a note: At Sentimental Journey a few year ago I went though the build documents for the Clippers to see the color combinations Piper produced. If anyone is interested I'll see if I can fine it and post the combinations. I do know they didn't build a Yellow/Dark Green one. :)

BrettL
08-13-2013, 11:02 AM
BrettL, You mentioned in your post that a number of the "PA" aircraft including the 20/22 were painted with "Lock Haven Yellow". I know Piper would have painted an airplane any color to sell it. Does anyone have knowledge of an original yellow Pacer or Tripacer?

Just a note: At Sentimental Journey a few year ago I went though the build documents for the Clippers to see the color combinations Piper produced. If anyone is interested I'll see if I can fine it and post the combinations. I do know they didn't build a Yellow/Dark Green one. :)

Clayton, I don't think that was me that listed all those aircraft. I'm only seeing it above copied into LightFlight's post, quoting Magnus. I'm not sure what happened to Magnus's original post. I have a copy of Piper Service Letter No. 303A, which lists Yellow as one of the colors being used on the PA-16, PA-20, and the PA-22 through 1957. Yellow is not listed for the 1958, 59 or 60 PA-22s. However the service letter also lists all the dopes being used through the 1950 model year as being nitrate, with all butyrate dope being introduced for the 1951 model year.

Clayton Harper
08-13-2013, 01:23 PM
BrettL, Sorry, my mistake. Maybe Magus will chime in here.

I did find the list I made from Clyde's data. 1949 Clippers: Most were Ivory with Red trim. There was about 100 were painted Blue with Yellow trim. Three or four were Blue with Ivory trim. One was painted Ivory with Burgundy, and one was painted Green with Ivory trim. There were some interior notes I saw. "Special Brown" "Deluxe Brown" "Blue Headliner" "Reinforced Seat Back" "Liner Tubes in Front Seats Backs" "J-4 Throttle Knob" and "Plastic Door Handle". If anyone is interested.

BrettL
08-13-2013, 01:51 PM
Clyde's build info documents are very interesting. I'd love to have a copy of the whole thing, at least for all the Vagabonds.

cammons3
08-13-2013, 05:50 PM
Clyde's build info documents are very interesting. I'd love to have a copy of the whole thing, at least for all the Vagabonds.
Same here, if they are available... more good info for the forum.

Clayton Harper
08-13-2013, 06:35 PM
Clyde's build info documents are very interesting. I'd love to have a copy of the whole thing, at least for all the Vagabonds.
Remember, it is what he has to sell. He saved these when no one else thought they had any value. Thank You Clyde Smith Jr (his dad did the production test flight on my Clipper). I can't clearly remember but $10 a set is what I remember. So 350 PA-15's $3500, and another $2500 for the PA-17's should make him happy to share.:)

Clayton Harper
08-13-2013, 06:38 PM
Help Clyde out, go to one of his seminars, so he can keep up the good work.

LightFlight
08-13-2013, 08:03 PM
Not sure, Joe; another hard question that may be require Clyde Smith clarification. I did pick this up from the Cub Forum regarding Randolph's J3 Cub Yellow color (http://www.pipercubforum.com/yellow.htm), but even it may not be correct.

Much like the stripe's existence, I'm unsure where it was decided which "blue" was the proper color when the black/white photo above gives credence to the prototype's stripe having a significantly black shade to it. Anyway, it does allow us to imagine the "correct colors"; and we may not have been correct in any of our assumptions of what these planes should have looked like. They sure are fun flyers though, aren't they?

My buddy is painting his J3 Lemon Yellow, and it looks good, too, if not "correct". As long as no one tells the plane...:wave2:

http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/view_larger_image.php?pid=12671

I got the quote from Magnus in the first link of this post... just for everyone's info.

I just read about the matching enamels to go with dopes etc. that various manufacturers offer, so I answered my own question about painting the fabric versus the metal parts, but does anyone know anything about Lincoln fabrics?

Thanks!

Clayton Harper
08-13-2013, 08:12 PM
As I remember the story..... When only nitrate dope was used, the yellow melted into the silver below it and made it a little more "green".