What speed does your tail come up?

[Rollie]

On takeoff in my 22/20 with forward trim and full forward yoke, the tail doesn't come up tip 40-45 mph, regardless of loading (solo, or with dogs in the back, etc.) Also on wheel landings the tail will only stay up until it slows to 40-45mph. I wanted to check if this is normal or if I might have a rigging issue, before I decide to get a PA-18 elevator/stab.

My plane has a 150 hp 0-320, droop tips and VGs and 8.50s which will very soon be replaced with 26" Goodyears.

[Stephen]

That sounds about normal. If I am light aft, I can lift the tail at or just befor 40 mph. I do have the PA 18 tail, Bushwheels and my plane's EW is just over 1000 lbs. When I am at GW my tail comes up much slower.

[Rollie]

Stephen, So you are saying that even with the PA 18 tail, it doesn't come up any sooner? I've read posts that people are putting the -18 tail on to get more flare in the landing, which I don't need, I just want to be able to get the tail off the ground when landing at unimproved strips, which is fast becoming my favorite pastime. If the PA-18 tail doesn't help with that, I guess I'll save my money for a baby bush wheel to at least dampen the bumps if I can't get the tail up off of them.

[Stephen]

When I am light, I may get the tail off a bit before 40. If I am dragging it in to a very short strip, I do use the extra flair and touch tail first which is above 40, then go forward on the stick for better braking.

[Bob Mac]

My experience with both of my Pacers tells me that the geometry is such that the tail can be raised at a lower speed than a speed that provides adequate rudder control. Thus a longer time for the tailwheel to be on the ground may be better. ?

[Pacer 24C]

I would check your down elevator travel and jack screw travel - My Pacer is light (1020lbs enpty) but is fairly aft empty CG at 12.8" - But I can raise the tail very early if I desire like 20mph at the most with 20 degrees of flap. And that is with the trim set for climb (about 4 cranks up from cruise)

[andya]

my experience is about the same as Stephen's. My aircraft is heavy at 1160 empty weight

[Kurts]

Funny, my tail is up while it's sitting in the hangar, although people keep telling me I need to fix that...

[Rollie]

Kurts,
You should definitely have that checked out, from the picture it looks like someone made a terrible mistake and put your tail wheel on the wrong end. I guess they did that a lot, even mine came from the factory that way, but fortunately someone caught it years before I bought it and fixed it.

[Steve Pierce]

Experiment with different trim settings. I did this years ago with my Pacer and was really surprised at the differences in how quick the airplane comes off the ground. Cation however, at some trim settings the airplane jumps off the ground but takes a lot of force to keep the airplane flying once airborne.

[Rollie]

I've been trying lots of different things and have got to where I can consistently get off the ground in less than 500' solo and just over 500 with a passenger. I'm looking forward to mounting the 26" tires to see how much shorter I can get off the ground. I'm just waiting to be able to get ahold of someone at Svenns Aviation so I can get the STC. I'm also getting the lightweight battery STC to mostly offset the extra weight of the bigger tires and thought that if the PA-18 tail will get the tail up sooner, I would go ahead and get that at the same time.

I've got a good running, mid-time O-320 150hp that I think could be putting out just a little more, I have the 58" pitch prop and static RPM is 2250 and flat out, wide open at 2000 MSL I get about 2550 RPM and 135 mph indicated. I'm going to replace all the spark plugs (they have 450 hrs on them) at annual next month, check the mag timing and plug wires and hopefully get a little more RPM out of it. I'm hoping that with that and the bigger tires I can get off in about 300" solo and less than 500" dual, otherwise I'll be shopping for a Borer. Whatever it takes to keep up with the Super Cubs.

[Stephen]

I would check your down elevator travel and jack screw travel - My Pacer is light (1020lbs enpty) but is fairly aft empty CG at 12.8" - But I can raise the tail very early if I desire like 20mph at the most with 20 degrees of flap. And that is with the trim set for climb (about 4 cranks up from cruise)

Hey, Jeff....20 mph.....my AS does not even indicate that low. You need to get back to Lopez and show me. Actually, I will be down in Newport for a month or so...and will be looking for something to do. Maybe I could get you to hop over.

[Pacer 24C]

Hey, Jeff....20 mph.....my AS does not even indicate that low. You need to get back to Lopez and show me. Actually, I will be down in Newport for a month or so...and will be looking for something to do. Maybe I could get you to hop over.

Hey Steve - I have a Helo AS 20-160mph , I am not one that is big on pushing the tail way up - I usually just raise the tailwheel to reduce the rolling drag a few inches - But I can push the tail all the way to level easy enought by 20-25mph - 300ft to brake ground with zero wind solo with full fuel.( 20 degrees flap - 55" pitch prop) I am getting another Sensenich prop done on the low side of 53" - should be even better. Here's my cell no. - if we get a real nice day give me a call from Newport 503-689-2964

[Rollie]

I guess I'll get my elevator and jack screw rigging checked. Its just never seemed right that it takes so long to get the tail off the ground.

[Stephen]

I guess I'll get my elevator and jack screw rigging checked. Its just never seemed right that it takes so long to get the tail off the ground.

Just lift the tail when it is setting on the ground, it is not like lifting the tail of a Cub.

Jeff,

"Good weather?? on the coast?? in winter?? Wind, 30 or under, ceilding at least 500 feet and some visibility...OK?

With my wife insisting on us being there for the arrival of our new grand daughter, even with my new Dynon D1 in my panel, we will be driving.

[Al Rice]

Trim nose down for T/O. It raises the angle on the stab. Works well

[Terry E]

The sun was out this weekend and so was I. I did just that with the stab trim and the tail just poped up allmost instantly.

[Brian]

I believe a significant factor is the 22/20 vs the original pacer. My first plane was a '50 PA-20, and even with a high time 0-290D 125HP engine I could, with a light load, lock the brakes, apply full power / down elevator and get the tail off the ground. Ok maybe in North TX where I was based at the time there was a wind component, but the fact is the PA-20 has less weight on the TW. Possibly the difference in the geometry of the tall / narrow PA 20 gear vs. the wider Univair gear, (and I'm just thinking out loud no math involved), contributes to a difference due to a slight leverage advantage.

[Steve Pierce]

The Univair gear doesn't change the angle of attack as the airplane sits on the ground. Early Pacers are quite a bit lighter than the later models and the PA22/20s.

[Rollie]

I've tried those things (trim all the way forward, etc.) and my tail is just heavy. I talked to Josh at Svenns Aviation a couple days ago and he said his, with the Super Cub tail will come off the ground at a standstill just by adding power. So I'm going to try it. It will be awhile though since I just bought 3 STCs from him and now I have to buy and cover the tail feathers before I can put them on and try it. Or maybe I can get one of my friends to loan me the tail from his Super Cub to try it... I won't hold my breath on that one.

[chopper12]

Rollie ,put a borer prop on her,it will be way more bang for the buck then the SC tail.
When I put a borer on mine [had 56 sensinich] it allowed me to lift my tail easily at a stand still with the brakes on ,it made a HUGE difference in take off,also the Angle of climb is scary[no more pushing the nose down to build speed befor climb] and when you throttle back for landing that big old disc of a prop helps slow you down faster.Mine has 6 inch extended SC gear and 29 inch bushwheels on it.I later put on the SC tail and it gave me better handling when landing slow both on wheels and floats . The borer is the best money I ever spent on her,made it a whole different plane .Just my experience.

[Rollie]

Thanks, I'm thinking of putting a Borer prop on, but understand that will really slow the plane down. I probably will eventually do that anyway and just switch props when I want to go faster. I really do like the idea of super short take offs and steep climbs. It would be nice if there was a ground adjustable prop approved for these planes.

[nicka]

I have an 8244 borer prop and 26" Goodyears on my PA20 and it cruises about 110-113mph, I was pretty happy with that i was expecting slower. The borer prop is definitily the ticket to getting things moving on the ground. I put a supercub tail on a friends PA22/20-180, he really liked it, its an expensive mod, even if you can do the fabric work yourself, but I would put the borer prop and baby bushwheel on the tail first. I need to get the big tailwheel for mine, and after that I will be thinking about the supercub tail.

[Rollie]

That is good news, I thought a Borer prop would slow me down to about 95mph. 110 is a lot better. I normally only cruise at about 115 anyway. It will go faster, but I get 115 at about 2350-1400 rpm. I ordered the STC for the super cub tail, but you are right, it isn't going to be cheap to get the tail parts and put it on. I think I'll start looking around for a borer prop. I'm pretty sure that with it, I should be able to get in and out of small places dual instead of just solo.