Tri-pacer pattern speeds

[gliderman]

Dan
How is the pattern work going?
shane

[Subsonic]

Found this on search. Pretty funny for anyone who's flown more than a hundred hours in a shortwing.

[dgapilot]

Pattern speeds are a function of the environment you are in. I’ve held 130 to the runway fence when being chased by a GIV, and kept an easy 65 at a lazy airport. I prefer putting all the flaps I’m going to use all at once, and trim accordingly depending on where I am and traffic. I prefer patterns close enough and high enough that I can make the runway at any point if the engine fails. I’ll maintain pattern altitude until I’m on a glide path that will allow that. If I’m in the pattern with guys that drag 5 mile finals, I’ll slow to about 65 on downwind to close up the space so I can turn a more comfortable 1/4 mile final.

In short, learn what your airplane can do and adjust speed, altitude, flaps, and power so it puts you in the proper glide path for the conditions.


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[akflyer]

Pattern speeds are a function of the environment you are in. I’ve held 130 to the runway fence when being chased by a GIV, and kept an easy 65 at a lazy airport. I prefer putting all the flaps I’m going to use all at once, and trim accordingly depending on where I am and traffic. I prefer patterns close enough and high enough that I can make the runway at any point if the engine fails. I’ll maintain pattern altitude until I’m on a glide path that will allow that. If I’m in the pattern with guys that drag 5 mile finals, I’ll slow to about 65 on downwind to close up the space so I can turn a more comfortable 1/4 mile final.

In short, learn what your airplane can do and adjust speed, altitude, flaps, and power so it puts you in the proper glide path for the conditions.


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my thoughts exactly, If you need more than 1/4 mile final you need a lot more practice. I hate the local flight school teaching 3 mile finals and flying really low flat approaches. I have gotten on the radio more than once and asked them what the plan was if the engine quit and they were over houses 2 miles out at 500'. One can come in with extra speed, a quick slip and them pull in the flaps and be set down on the numbers every time. Too many these days are just along for the ride and not really flying the plane.

[dgapilot]

my thoughts exactly, If you need more than 1/4 mile final you need a lot more practice. I hate the local flight school teaching 3 mile finals and flying really low flat approaches. I have gotten on the radio more than once and asked them what the plan was if the engine quit and they were over houses 2 miles out at 500'. One can come in with extra speed, a quick slip and them pull in the flaps and be set down on the numbers every time. Too many these days are just along for the ride and not really flying the plane.

If they go much more than 1/4 mile out and haven't turned base, I consider them to be out of the pattern on a cross country and turn my base in front of them.

[Jim]

Hi,

I know some folks take the long finals because they aren't very good at getting everything set up to land. Flight training and pilot proficiency should have a goal of every pilot having the field made from pattern entry to touchdown.

[Tnathan]

Hi,

I know some folks take the long finals because they aren't very good at getting everything set up to land. Flight training and pilot proficiency should have a goal of every pilot having the field made from pattern entry to touchdown.

I agree with you all. Folks who learned on planes that tend to quite taught us differently. But the current trend driven by the atp puppy mills seems to assume the engine will run and the biggest risk is the pilot doing something dumb, which may have some merit when green instructors are teaching green students. The big patterns buy the student time to get set up. And the focus these days is avoiding stall spin accidents. I thought it was embry riddle that was advocating moving from a square pattern to a standard rate, coordinated, descending, 180 turn from downwind to final as a solution.

Anyhow, big patterns slow me down when I am trying to land but live and let live. And, I am just boring hole in the sky anyhow. 5 more minutes in the air ain’t a bad thing.

[azevedoflyer]

PA22/20-150hp
Downwind, no matter what loading, 80 mph, no flaps, about 1500 rpm.
Abeam ldg spot, 1st notch of flaps, trim to 70 mph.
Turning base, 2nd notch of flaps.
If loaded to the gills, that is the speed to carry down to the actual landing. PA22/20s kind of seat on rails at this speed. Truly a sweet spot speed.
If by myself, turning final, trim to 60 mph and carry some power. How much, I do not know. As someone else said, I am looking outside!

I only do 3 pointers and after 20 years of ownership and surviving 1500+ ldgs, I still do not consistently get good ones! But get to use the plane again...
The result is a very short run, no brakes.
Good luck.
azevedoflyer

[Tnathan]

I am always amazed at all the different recipes for landing. I think it depends on your goal. I guess that’s why we learn normal landings, short field, and soft field when getting your PPL.

If you want the shortest landing, with the least roll out, than something just above stall with full flaps could work. But you may be setting yourself up for having to deal with a healthy sink rate. If you got the skill, Bush wheels, and or a soft landing surface, this may be the end of the spectrum you prefer.

If you don’t like how fast you are coming down and the sometimes abrupt end to your flight, you can use less flaps and a faster approach. But, I have had wry old pilots say adding power when you are trying to land near the ground is counter productive to the goal and adds energy you don’t want if you have an accident. There’s truth to that too.

So, for me I played around with different set ups. My home airport has a paved runway often with crosswinds off the bay. The hardtop runway is good at telling me when I didn’t manage the descent rate. So, for me I was looking for smoothing out my landing , keep good aileron control, and I have gobs of runway to use. If you landing in a short backcountry strip what I do is not ideal.

So, at the key position, I power back to 1500 rpm. ( as an aside I have both the original tach and a digital tack. 1500 on my digital is more like 1600-1700 on the original tach). I trim to the second line from the back and let the airspeed drop. Once I am in the white arc, I add one notch of flaps. I have Vgs and Stewart wingtips. All this settles out to around 75 mph and a nice 300-500 fpm descent rate. I make small adjustments on final to get me to ground effect depending on loading, headwind, density altitude, etc. I tend to carry power into ground effect where ground effect will help dampen the descent rate.

If I am doing a wheel landing on short final I may add a 100 rpm or so and push the nose down to the horizon depending on how she is sinking. If I am trying to shorten my roll with the wheel landing I will flare for 5degrees nose up. If I am doing a 3 point, I smoothly pull the power to idle, round out and flare 10 degrees nose up or so.

I seem to be in the minority but I decided I didn’t like 2 notches of flaps in the pacer. It worked fine in the 172 to work all the flaps in from downwind, base, final. But, I reasoned everyone complains that pacers drop out of the sky. Why am I throwing out a boat anchor in a plane that comes down fine on its own? Secondly I read an article that for most certified airplanes the first notch of flaps typically corresponds to L/D max. When I thought about it, that was exactly what I wanted in the pacer: max lift to drag. I also liked the view out the window. 2 notches at 60 left me having to add a lot of power and nose high. I liked the shallower pitch especially if I want to wheel land.


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[akflyer]

I think this comes down to skill level and mission. I make every landing set up to hit the numbers or my landing spot. If I find myself needing to avoid a long taxi I still set up for hitting the numbers then add power to carry me down the runway to the desired touch down spot. We are what we practice. If you need to fly by numbers (RPM, Airspeed etc) you need more practice. The plane will tell you if its happy with a solid feel on the controls, your butt will tell you if you sinking or not and your eyes will tell you how fast you are approaching the runway and where your touchdown spot will be.

Full flaps don't just add drag, they lower stall speed. Lower stall speed = lower touch down speed. Lower touch down speed = less tire wear (especially if you are running BW) Lower touchdown speed=less brakes needed and less chance of a ground loop. Setting trim to XX position only works on your plane as they are almost all rigged differently. Airspeeds and RPM are the same, we all vary and can vary VASTLY due to many things. The speed that XXXX RPM gives you on your airplane with your cruise prop on tiny tires with wheelpants will be vastly different than I get with big wheels and a climb prop.

You want real landing speeds, go to altitude and learn your plane. Drive it around at minimum controllable airspeed and really get a feel for it. I am not talking about a quick straight line run with full flaps and power to see where the stall is, I am talking spending some time driving it all around the sky in various banks, climbs and descents and really get the feel for your plane and what it will do or won't do. It is much better to know your speeds and feel at 2K feet versus learning them the hard way at 50'.

I think most would be shocked at what a short wing will do if you take the time to learn to really fly it.