ADSB-Out . . Creeping toward 2020

[ysifly2]

The Navworks unit will plug into your Trig TT22 transponder to comply with the ADSB mandate.

Just a heads up and word of caution as of me writing this. The NavWorX is supposed to have a certified version, and advertising to also be applicable for the FAA's current rebate program. As it will work with many transponders and allows an installation method to use a current transponder without having to break into the existing transponder / encoder wiring, it was very appealing to me. So much so, that I decided to proceed down that path at Oshkosh and purchased the NavWorks ADS600-B unit. As the FAA rebate program opened up last week for the registration, I logged in and started the rebate process.

To my surprise, I received the following email from the FAA:

To: Undisclosed recipients:;
Subject: ADS-B Rebate Program, Rebate ELIGIBLE NavWorx Equipment/Part Number list

Thank you for your interest in the FAA GA ADS-B Rebate Program. The FAA reiterates that ONLY the following NavWorx part numbers satisfy the requirements for the Rebate Program at this time: ADS600-B 200-0112 and ADS600-B 200-0113. NavWorx avionics with the following part numbers do NOT satisfy the requirements for the Rebate Program at this time: ADS600-B 200-0012 and ADS600-B 200-0013 even if marked as TSO-compliant. FAA has previously informed NavWorx that they are not authorized to mark these part numbers with the FAA TSO C154c marking. The FAA cautions that you may be subject to civil or criminal penalties for any knowing and willful misrepresentation in the reservation request or in any other matter or representation related to the reservation.
If you had planned to base your rebate claim on either the ADS600-B 200-0012 or ADS600-B 200-0013, and if you would still like to participate in the FAA’s ADS-B Rebate program with an ADS-B device that meets the program rules of the ADS-B Rebate Program, we will extend your rebate reservation, allowing you additional time to identify a new product and complete the rebate process.

ADS-B Rebate Program Office,
Federal Aviation Administration

The unit I purchased and received was in fact the p/n 200-0012, so at this point in time, I currently do not have an ADSB system that is eligible for the rebate, and further there is some question regarding its TSO compliance. It may certainly be 'ok' and compliant to meet the 2020 requirements... but my purchase and plan to install at this time was largely driven by the ability to take advantage of the FAA rebate.

On Saturday I sent a email to both Sarasota Avionics (purchased from) and to NavWorx regarding the above email from the FAA. Was pleased to have received a response from Sarasota Avionics today acknowledging my email and subject concern and that they have also reached out to NavWorx to get more information. As of this writing I have not received any response from NavWorx, but noting that the email I received was sent to an unknown number of un-disclosed recipients, I will not get too excited just yet. I did not have the time to try and initiate a call to them today.

Just wanted to pass along so that if anyone else was preparing to go down this path, they can inquire to the above prior to purchase.

Will provide update here as I have any further information.

Regards,
Bryan

[Subsonic]

So, being new to all of this I have questions. I have a Normal category certified aircraft, a 1956 Tri-Pacer PA-22 150. To understand the potential utility of the ADS-B in and out data, I purchased an OpenFlightSolutions Flight Box with the external GPS that runs on an external battery. Put it together myself from the simple kit and I've flown with it a couple times, and it does indeed update my ForeFlight iPad display with other aircraft that have ADS-B. Those other planes with ADS-B have been few in number thus far, and tend to be jets. I assume that number of aircraft will grow over time. I also assume the FAA 2020 deadline will, at some point require me to buy a "certified" ADS-B transponder, and a log entry will prove that's been complied with and checked when I get my July annual inspection. Just wondering, if an aircraft were to be found non-compliant with that requirement in 2020, does the IA "ground" your plane? Like many on this thread have indicated, I was thinking to push out in time, as long as possible to see if "certified" aircraft compliant transponders become cheaper. I'm also wondering why a portable ADS-B like the Flight Box unit does not meet the requirements for certified aircraft. Seems to me that would meet the needs of the system...

[andya]

I don't know anything about flight box but assume it is ADS-b IN and that is what you are receiving you traffic and wx on.
It doesn't have to be certified. ADS-b OUT requires an approved TSO'd equipment, not even the ADS-b out equipment
that guys can put in their experimentals cannot be legally installed and used in a certified aircraft.
Come 2020 you don't have to have a ADS-b out in you plane and the IA shouldn't care as it is not an airworthiness item
as such. ADS-b out is only required in certain airspace like Class B or C or above some altitude where you won't be flying your
Tripacer because it won't get that high.

[Jim Hann]

Subsonic,

The areas that will require ADS-B in 2020 are the same areas we now require a transponder with Mode C. If you do not need those where you are now, you do not need to worry about having the equipment by 2020. If you are in an area like I am, eight miles from the primary airport of a Class B area, you will have to have it.

The only other issue at play is the resale value of your airplane, it will be worth less to folks that live in areas that require ADS-B, which is entirely subjective.

Jim

[Subsonic]

Andy,
The Flight Box I put together has both the ADS-B In and OUT functions...It is not TSO'd. I fly with it. Nobody cares. So far... Check out OpenFlightSolutions Flight Box. https://www.openflightsolutions.com/ I bought and fly with the dual band unit - UAT 978 MHz band and the 1090-ES band. It sits on the tray over the luggage compartment with it's own Lithium battery. I also bought the options - friction mount, remote GPS, the larger half wavelength antennas, but just put them on the box, don't have them on a remote mount. It works great. What's not to like? I guess the fact it's not blessed by the FAA? hmmmm In the meantime, I'll use it and learn about ADS-B before I'm forced to buy a certified unit of some sort. 300 bucks into the whole thing and I get to study it for the next 3 and a half years before I buy something.

[PACERGUY]

Pay attention to what andya is saying!!! Unless you are flying into class B or C it is not needed!!! Even if you have it there will be a lot of aircraft flying around without it so you still have to look outside not inside the plane. I don't mean to be harsh but it sounds like someone/or yourself is pushing for some big time IFR dash. JUST LEARN TO FLY. Once you spend a few years doing that than consider if you need a bigger dash (or bigger plane). I understand playing with some stuff would be fun and I would encourage that because if you do go to the dark side in the future it will help. Just don't worry about throwing big buck at this stuff, you will never get it back if you sale the plane, save it for FUEL, SPIN TRAINING, and GOOD CFI's. As far as ADS-b that is ground based, it will fail and be replaced by a satellite based system once unmanned aircraft and drones come on to the playing field. Plan a cross country to Texas and Steves fly-in week, than you will be throwing everything you can find out of the plane.
DENNY

[51-pa22]

Subsonic,
I own one of the flightbox ads-b dual frequency receivers.
It works well as a Receiver. It is not designed as a transmitter other than a little noise it that was demonstrated it was producing with several of Software Defined Radios (SDRs). Please check with Steve over at Openflight. Its a great little portable ADS-B in not out. For the next year or so i am hoping on putting it just over my nose wheel in my little short wing.
I only wish it was an ADS-B out for $200

Our gov does not trust us to be able to do such complex issues without their direct interference.

[Subsonic]

Thanks everybody for the comments. I do appreciate it. Re: only an the OFS ADS-B being only an "In" and not "Out" too...Really? I guess I need to look into that. You're saying they're defective in their transmitter output power, or the data format is noisy, or what? I read the 978 UAT band is both in and out, while the 1090 ES band is Out only. I also heard what Andy said and Denny reiterated, I guess I should have acknowledged the comment. So, I live on the central coast of CA, hangar at OAR, and have to skirt the San Jose and Oakland class C and San Francisco class B airspace if I want to fly north because I don't have a mode C xpdr. I'm getting one soon, though, to fix that. I will want to fly in those spaces after 2020 too, and figured getting a cheap ADS-B now would be a smart way to become familiar with the system and data provided, and certified boxes might become cheaper in 3 years. But you're right, I need to learn to fly everywhere, and my head is not just inside the plane looking at gauges. The whole reason I fly is to look at the scenery and get places I want to be quickly. In fact, I'm wondering why I need more than an altimeter, airspeed indicator, and compass and my iPad with ForeFlight at this point. Later, I'll want to get my IFR cert, and want to plan for a certified panel to support that goal. Re: Spin training recommendation, I guess that means in an aerobatic plane, or if I lighten up the TP so that I'm clearly under Utility upper weight limits, am I good to go with a qualified CFI? Yes that was a question. When is Steve's fly-in? Thanks.

[51-pa22]

Subsonic
Your right in that the 978 MHz band for UATs is for both in and out.
The key here is the term UAT. That T is for transmitters or transcevers.
Like your AM/FM radio. You can redeive all day on many frequencies. Your not allowed to transmit unless.......
It might be wise of us to have thread dedicated to ADS-B options, costs, & definations.
I know Homer is well passed up to, his eyes in his battle trying to find logic at his fsdo so, have others.
Skyguard is another company I've been watching their product for some time for an approved transmitter. And to date, we dont have a solution under $500 or even $1000 to legally transmit on this frequency for 2020 ADS-B out requirements.

[MN_flyer1]

From: http://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb.../requirements/

ADS-B Out will be required in the following airspace:

• Class A, B, and C airspace
• Class E airspace areas at or above 10,000 ft MSL over the 48 states andDC, excluding airspace at and below 2,500 ft AGL
• Airspace within 30 nautical miles (nm) at certain busy airports from the surface up to 10,000 feet MSL; airports listed in appendix D to part 91.
• Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class Cairspace area up to 10,000 feet MSL
• Class E airspace over the Gulf of Mexico at and above 3,000 feet MSLwithin 12 nm of the coastline of the United States