Landing a PA-22 for beginners?

[dgapilot]

Thanks folks. I have watched those videos and I understand the premise. I guess what just got me curious was like I said, watching some of these videos and seeing these pilots landing their aircraft with very slow but stabilized approaches much closer to stall then seems normal with a tri pacer, and what I gather is that the higher wing loading on our planes makes for more rapid decent rates than say a maule or highlander or kitfox?

That would be correct. I doubt many of those approaches in the STOL videos are done with low power settings. I used to fly in and out of a 400’ strip with a ratty PA-22-160. It did have clear approaches, but was easy to get it in and out. It was metalized, so it was actually pretty heavy. The trick was I had the prop repitched from the normal 60 or 61” pitch down to a 53” pitch. Knowing your limits and the limits of your aircraft are important.

If you want to learn about short field operations, I suggest you find a copy of “Guide to Bush Flying” by F.E. Potts. It’s out of print now, so somewhat pricey, but some libraries can get it. The concepts he covers are invaluable for short field operations.

You might also consider taking soaring lessons. Nothing better for helping understand the concepts of energy management and maximizing the performance of your aircraft.


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[FFSchooley]

Thank you! It’s starting to make more sense. And yes to the soaring lessons! I would love that. I want to take all the lessons possible!

[Tailwind_Fan]

From an aerodynamic standpoint, at stall the wing is still producing gobs of lift! Don’t believe what those books tell you. The lift curve for any airfoil will show that just prior, and just after stall (the point with the highest Cl) the wing is still producing lots of lift, but the interaction of the wing and the tail result in a pitch down. With any aircraft with a higher wing loading, the lift produced at slower speeds isn’t sufficient to maintain steady state altitude. Total lift = .5* Cl* rho*v^2*A. Cl for any given alpha angle can be found from any aero text book for any given airfoil, the most used is Theory of Wing Sections.

Many aircraft are designed with the stabilizer (traditional tail) set at an angle of attack higher than that of the wing. As you increase pitch, the tail will reach the critical angle of attack prior to the wing, which results in the nose pitching over prior to the wing reaching critical angle. This is the basic stability and control built into our airplanes. Others are designed such that the tail actually produces a down force to stabilize the aircraft. As the nose pitches up, the down force is reduced until the tail can no longer counteract the lifting
Moment of the wing resulting in the nose down pitch. The nose drops not because the wing isn’t producing lift, it drops because the horizontal tail can no longer counteract the pitching moment of the wing, but the wing is still producing lots of lift until that pitch over. Once the AoA is reduced, then the total lift produced (see formula above) can no longer support the aircraft, which causes the aircraft to descend.


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I’m sorry, but but having the tail produce down force, and stalling before the main wing are two separate and non related occurrences. In a traditional airplane(large wing/small wing) and not a canard, bi-wing(flying flea/quickie), or tri-wing (Piagio P180) the airplane wing is stable only when the tail produces a restoring moment on the main wing moment due to it producing lift. This only happens when the tail is trimmed to provide down force. The total maximum down force of the tail available sets the forward limits of the weight and balance envelope, while the rear is set via the point the main wing no longer needs the tail to trim the upward pitching moment of producing lift. So, as long as we’re operating ahead of the rear limit of CG the tail always provides a down force. As for which stalls first, that’s not as important. What is important is that total moment resulting from both lift vectors doesn’t become a pitch up moment at the CG at the stall speed. I’ve had this twice in college in both vehicle stability and air vehicle stability. God help you if you load a trailer or an aircraft with the weight too far to the rear.

On the original topic, I’ve found my Tri-Pacer incredibly easy to fly. My targets are 80/80mph base/final with half flaps base and full flaps final. I’ll usually start a little higher and find it’s incredibly easy to bleed off altitude without getting too fast. On flare, a little power will keep the nose off the runway as long as you want. I have encountered some strong up and down drafts in my home airport pattern. I just concentrate on keeping on the glide slope by keeping my eyes on the runway and occasionally glancing at the ASI to ensure I’m carrying sufficient airspeed.

-Alana

[dgapilot]

Not all airplanes are set up to have the tail provide a down force. Yes the majority of them are, but most of the Fleet biplanes had tails with an up lifting vector. Just saying.

[Tailwind_Fan]

Not all airplanes are set up to have the tail provide a down force. Yes the majority of them are, but most of the Fleet biplanes had tails with an up lifting vector. Just saying.

Sure, sure see my exclusions, oh and modern fighter aircraft with augmented active digital stability controls, but anything with a conventional big front wing-smaller tail rear, and hand operated controls has a given amount of static stability given by a main wing producing lift and the rear tail trimming the main wing’s pitching moment by producing a down force. A wing doesn’t just provide lift, it also provide a pitching moment. The tail acts to trim the main wing, and with the typical GA aircraft that means the tail must provide a down force for the aircraft to be stable in pitch.

[dgapilot]

No matter how you look at it, for stability, the forward lifting surface has to reach critical AoA before the aft lifting surface. The basic concept of decollage.


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[Tailwind_Fan]

No matter how you look at it, for stability, the forward lifting surface has to reach critical AoA before the aft lifting surface. The basic concept of decollage.


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Hummm, that contradicts your previous point about the tail having to stall first.....

I think there’s some ambiguity it what we’ve written.

But first I don’t think you know me or my background. I have a MS in mechanical and aero engineering, my advisor wrote the book on vehicle (including airplanes) stability, and my profession is as a SME in system dynamics and stability as it applies to solid rocket motors.

I have a pressing appointment that I’m late for and will return to this in a bit....

Alana

[Jim]

Bleriot-4-960.jpgHi,

The EAA workshops built a replica of a Bleriot aircraft a few years back. The horizontal tail surface is a lifting surface. The engine is just barely ahead of the wings leading edge making an unusual ballance point of the plane as a whole.

https://www.eaa.org/eaa-museum/museu...plica---n908lb

[Jackson]

Just having gotten a Colt, Troy, I would agree with what you have stated. My background was in a C-150 and it has taken me a while to feel comfortable with the Colt. The Colt is a whole new bird for me, but one that can be mastered with some good instruction and practice.

[at7615]

https://www.risingup.com/planespecs/...plane305.shtml
https://www.risingup.com/planespecs/...plane452.shtml

The Colt is a far superior trainer compared to the C-150. The only thing my buddy can do in his C-150 is land slower and easier entry into a spin. I have him beat in every other category, hands down! Course I cheated and put a 0-320 in! But even with a 0-235 I would still beat him! Colt's teach students to use their feet better, land easier (secret there is roll the trim AAALLLLL the way back) I can haul these heavy students with ease. Negatives on a colt are the tube and fabric, but a tube and fabric is a forever aircraft, whereas the aluminum birds are going to succumb to corrosion and stress cycles.