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Thread: Experimental?

  1. #1
    piperrocks2013
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    Default Experimental?

    Quote Originally Posted by mmoyle View Post
    And two others that I know of.

    There are a few differences between what I'm doing and Eddie's wing. First is the spar splices, aileron and flap spar splices, trailing edge splices. Single flap hinge per flap. Wing tip.... which I'm a bit concerned about... I feel the need for the wing tips with the fence...a squared off wing tip will reduce the effectiveness of the outboard end of the aileron. If the wing tip can't be installed.... will need to get some engineering help with spar reinforcement.

    Nothing in my wing build is spliced together, the leading edge and false spar metals are .020" not the original .016" The additional flap hinge per flap is an insurance policy. I have on occasion pulled the first notch of flap above the white arc on the airspeed indicator.

    I think the only other modifications that are non standard is the seat belt retractor mounts, belly pan at the tail, additional structure at the tail, the entry steps I added to the landing gear duplicating the re-fueling step, USB power supply for the Stratus 2 and iPad, fly pad mount, dual impulse couplers, starter solenoid, key/start switch, and a switch operated master solenoid. It's still a Pacer.

    I will be moving the access to the aileron turn buckles/flap mechanism. Instead of round or rectangular covers on the bottom side of the wing I'll modify the tank bay false spar to gain access through it with flush covers. And where ever I can...install counter sunk nut plates and flush rivets.

    The stall fence mount structure will differ from what Charlie Center supplied with the leading edge cuff kit...and I haven't decided if I'll install Charlie's gap seals... if I do they'll need drain holes... can imagine a rain shower...then freezing temperatures... not good.

    One big reason I'll not take the experimental route is insurance... can't insure any experimental aircraft in Alaska....if is moving.



    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

    did not know that about Insurance. In Canada OM category aircraft don't even change rates.

  2. #2
    Gilbert Pierce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Platinum Pacer Wings

    Certified parts in any form don't count toward rhe 51% rule foe amateur built. The best he could get would be Experimenral Exihibition.

  3. #3

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    Default Re: Platinum Pacer Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilbert Pierce View Post
    Certified parts in any form don't count toward rhe 51% rule foe amateur built. The best he could get would be Experimenral Exihibition.
    Gilbert,
    I don't believe that anybody on this Forum understands what the 51% rule really is.
    I know I don't, but what I do know is that you do not have to build 51% of the airplane. You can satisfy the rule by WORKING on 51% of the parts. Cub Crafters has pretty much defined this with their builder assist program.
    For instance my Grandson went to Cub Crafters last July to build a FX Cub for a dealer friend of ours because he didn't have the time to do so. Grandson was there for 5 days and his name will be on the data plate as the builder after he goes back when the plane is completed. There are a lot of factory parts that count now days.

    FWIW I don't understand how you can't get insurance on an EAB in Alaska with all of them that have to be there.

    A newly announced Carbon Cub FX builder's assistance program bonds builders to the intricacies of their aircraft because factory specialists walk them through each part of the Experimental amateur-built (E-AB) manufacturing process during a five-day construction session at CubCrafters’ Yakima, Washington, headquarters.


    Jim Richmond, CubCrafters founder and CEO, explained in a press release that builders of the $219,900 Carbon Cub FX begin with five eight-hour days on the factory floor working hand-in-hand with technicians to construct their Cub using steel, aluminum, and composite aircraft components. Then, CubCrafters assembles these customer-built components for a nearly complete Carbon Cub FX.
    About 50 days later, builders return to put the finishing touches on their aircraft. They’ll spend one day completing final assembly and preparing for airworthiness inspection; another day is reserved for the airworthiness inspection, certification, and at least two test flights by CubCrafters test pilots.

  4. #4
    Administrator Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Platinum Pacer Wings

    Cub Crafters has FAA approval for their builder assist as do other manufacturers. Is your grandson listed as the builder of that FX on the owner's paperwork? Nothing similar to 51% rule. For homebuilders their is a 51% worksheet and it specifically calls out not taking a certified airplane and making it an experimental with some mods. This was the cause of a huge split in the EAA very early on. "This Is EAA" by Duane Cole is a good read and covers the rif.

  5. #5
    Gilbert Pierce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Platinum Pacer Wings

    Jim
    In my opinion CubCrafters has been working FAA loop holes for years. You and I could never get by with the stuff they do.
    An LSA CUB with a 180hp + engine and a placard that limits full throttle to x number minutes to satisfy the speed limit requirements. Really!

  6. #6

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    Default Re: Platinum Pacer Wings

    "Is your grandson listed as the builder of that FX on the owner's paperwork?"


    Yes he is as far as I know. He is listed as an employee of the company.
    No matter how you look at it, the FX is E-AB category same as my Starduster TOO. The BUILDING of 51% of that plane does not apply.
    I assume that you can still build a Breezy which uses Cub wings, and tail surfaces. So all you build is a uncovered fuselage. Not much of the 51% pertains to it. And the list goes on and on.

    I'm with you Gilbert. Same as some of the two place LSAs that you can't put two people and gas in.

  7. #7
    Rick-CAS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Platinum Pacer Wings

    FAR 21.191 Expermental Certificates:
    g) Operating amateur-built aircraft. Operating an aircraft the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation.

    From AC 20-27G:

    Note: The major portion of the aircraft is defined as more than
    50 percent of the fabrication and assembly tasks, commonly referred to as the “51-percent rule.” For example, an amateur-built kit found on the FAA List of Amateur-Built Aircraft Kits has 40 percent of the fabrication/assembly completed by the kit manufacturer. In order to be eligible for an experimental amateur-built airworthiness certificate and per the major portion rule, the fabrication and assembly tasks that may be contracted out (for hire) to another individual (or builder/commercial assistance center) needs to be less than 10 percent.

    Converting a Type-Certificated Aircraft to an Amateur-Built Aircraft. The practice of performing alterations, repairs, and rebuilding of previously type-certificated aircraft for the purpose of obtaining an experimental amateur-built airworthiness certificate is not authorized under § 21.191(g). Such maintenance actions properly fall under 14 CFR part 43, Maintenance, Preventive Maintenance, Rebuilding, and Alteration. You will not receive credit for these actions toward fabrication or assembly. We will not accept applications for airworthiness inspections on such aircraft.
    (1) This policy has been in effect since 1952 under section 1.74-3 of the
    Civil Aeronautical Manual 1 (CAM 1), which specifically states that “structural components of other aircraft may be used [for amateur-built aircraft]; however, it is not intended that this provision be used to avoid obtaining approval of major alterations to aircraft previously certificated in another category....”
    (2) You should use the normal supplemental type certificate process for modifications to these aircraft and they should be kept under their existing maintenance programs to ensure continued airworthiness

    AC 20-27G is a pretty good read to explain the FAA's stand on this. Then you get to play with your local FSDO on their own interpretation of the rules.

  8. #8

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    Default Re: Platinum Pacer Wings

    I'm well aware of what is supposed to take place. Remember I'm the Guy that built a plane from a set of plans.

    FAR 21.191 Expermental Certificates:
    g) Operating amateur-built aircraft. Operating an aircraft the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation.

    Seems like a WHOLE lot of folks are getting around this requirement. I know of three on our airfield. Two RVs and one Glass Star.

    So tell me how you can BUY a complete airframe like a Smith Super Cub and call it E-AB.
    Read the rules to me again

    We won't even talk about the Mono Cub ( you can probably find it on the internet) that won Silver and beat me out at Oshkosh. Yea mostly Cub Parts.

    Found it for you. Now tell me again how you can't make a Certificated into an E-AB

    http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/N37PD.html

    Last edited by wyandot jim; 10-13-2017 at 02:50 PM.

  9. #9
    Rick-CAS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Platinum Pacer Wings

    Read my last sentence in my post above. Even if you follow the rules to the tee you still have to get the local office to play along the same page. My friends cliped wing Luscombe is a perfect example. He ran what he wanted to do by the FSDO office before he started just to make sure it was doable. They said that he had more than qualified to go E-AB at that time. Three years later when it was done they changed their tune. The tail is all new made from scratch only Luscombe parts are the hinges. The fuselage has four skins that are Univair replacement skins that are hydroformed the rest he made. Wings were cut down spars, hat sections, and cut down struts. All was documented as per the regs. The best he could do was put it in experimental exhibition. The amount of work done fabricating parts and assembling was far more than the RV-8 quickbuild that was being built at the same time. If he wanted to call it something other than a Luscombe it might have been a muddy path to an E-AB certificate. It all boils down to what the local interpretation of the law is.

  10. #10
    Gilbert Pierce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Platinum Pacer Wings

    The mono cub above has a symmetrical wing airfoil. Not Piper. Elevator has a trim tab and no jack screw. Cowl and struts are different.

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