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Thread: PA-22 Fatal near Kingman AZ

  1. #41

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    Default Re: PA-22 Fatal near Kingman AZ

    Quote Originally Posted by bluejeepdad View Post
    This is to give enough time for any water to migrate to the sump?

    What about mis-fueling with Jet-A; since it is more dense than avgas wouldn't it show up pretty quickly?

    Tim
    Yes, to separate from the fuel and settle to the sump.

    In theory, jet A should burn in a recip but it won’t burn well. A lot would depend on how much gasoline was still in the tanks. How long to discover would depend on how long for the fuel to get to the engine. Many aircraft can get airborne with the fuel valve off. It would take longer for contaminated fuel to reach the carb.

  2. #42

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    Default Re: PA-22 Fatal near Kingman AZ

    Quote Originally Posted by Mireaviation View Post
    I'm sure this will go against the grain of the subjugates who believe a certificate from the Feds will make you a better pilot than those without. I have met some rogue unlicensed pilots that I would trust to fly more than my certificated self. I know a fellow even had the nerve to compete in the STOL competition without a license back when it was in Gulkana. I once had a over rated pilot neighbor with over 20,000 hours, mostly corp jets, and couldn't fly his own 65HP Aeronca. Not joking either, he was scared to death of that airplane. People are strange and do strange things. Maybe Mr. Anderson was wrong, an idiot, or whatever, but the certificate doesn't make anyone immune from something mechanical, bird strikes, medical anomalies, forgetting fuel caps and certainly doesn't guarantee a better pilot.

    The man possibly lost the love of his life and that's his problem to explain and deal with, not mine and doesn't reflect on me or anyone I know in the “community”.
    I hope the student pilot at least told his passenger that he was only a student pilot and that carrying passengers is illegal until he completed the training (key here, training required to be competent as pilot in command which includes being trained and understanding it is his responsibility to check gas caps and not the line persons job) and successfully passed the required tests and earned a pilot certificate. That way at least she knew she was definitely putting her life in peril.
    Last edited by SMO22; 11-04-2019 at 06:55 PM.

  3. #43

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    Default Re: PA-22 Fatal near Kingman AZ

    Quote Originally Posted by Mireaviation View Post
    I'm sure this will go against the grain of the subjugates who believe a certificate from the Feds will make you a better pilot than those without. I have met some rogue unlicensed pilots that I would trust to fly more than my certificated self. I know a fellow even had the nerve to compete in the STOL competition without a license back when it was in Gulkana. I once had a over rated pilot neighbor with over 20,000 hours, mostly corp jets, and couldn't fly his own 65HP Aeronca. Not joking either, he was scared to death of that airplane. People are strange and do strange things. Maybe Mr. Anderson was wrong, an idiot, or whatever, but the certificate doesn't make anyone immune from something mechanical, bird strikes, medical anomalies, forgetting fuel caps and certainly doesn't guarantee a better pilot.

    The man possibly lost the love of his life and that's his problem to explain and deal with, not mine and doesn't reflect on me or anyone I know in the “community”.
    I do not consider myself a subjugate because of my PPL certificate (not license) nor my A&P/IA certificate!
    What makes a good pilot is experience, decision making ability and common sense. Luck, seat of the pants connection with our planes and strong gut feelings are gifts that not all are given and those who posses these traits are outstanding pilots.
    So the issue is not, did this poor soul have certification, but rather did his luck run out, if he had any to start with? Did he exercise good decision making ability? Did he contemplate what could go wrong before he took to the sky? Did he envision himself in a tribunal facing manslaughter? I pray for him and the deceased’s (RIP) family.

  4. #44
    Tailwind_Fan's Avatar
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    Default Re: PA-22 Fatal near Kingman AZ

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff J View Post
    Yes, to separate from the fuel and settle to the sump.

    In theory, jet A should burn in a recip but it won’t burn well. A lot would depend on how much gasoline was still in the tanks. How long to discover would depend on how long for the fuel to get to the engine. Many aircraft can get airborne with the fuel valve off. It would take longer for contaminated fuel to reach the carb.
    In my previous effort to earn my PPC, I flew with a flying club in Watsonville/Freedom CA. Just before I started flying with this club, the fuel tanker dumped JetA in the FBO’s 100LL tank. Once this error was discovered, the tank was pumped down at the pump and refilled with 100LL. This resulted in every aircraft having fueled from this pump having cracked jugs. It was like 5 gallons of JetA in 200 gallons of 100LL yet it lowered the octane enough to ground every aircraft at the airport. So even a tiny fraction of JetA would be a serious issue to deal with. The club performed a group lease from another aero club in San Jose just to keep something available to fly in....

    -Alana

  5. #45

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    Default Re: PA-22 Fatal near Kingman AZ

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff J View Post
    In theory, jet A should burn in a recip but it won’t burn well. A lot would depend on how much gasoline was still in the tanks. How long to discover would depend on how long for the fuel to get to the engine. Many aircraft can get airborne with the fuel valve off. It would take longer for contaminated fuel to reach the carb.
    I agree, it will burn, but the problem is that it will cause detonation. I can't remember the exact numbers that I've seen from testing of Jet-A samples, but the octane is very low (in the 40's maybe). So low that even a small amount will result in engine damage.

    My point was that sumping the tanks can reveal mis-fueling with Jet-A. So even if water will not have time to collect in the sump, it may still worth checking after refueling to verify that it is 100LL that went in the tank.

    Recently I had a fellow short winger admonish me for taking time to sump my tank since he was waiting next in line for the self-serve pump. I didn't bother to explain about checking for Jet-A because he didn't seem to be in a conversational mood.

    Tim

  6. #46

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    Default Re: PA-22 Fatal near Kingman AZ

    I verify the fuel type before I put it in the airplane. Jet, diesel and gas (unleaded) can be the same color as water.

    What would you do if the aircraft was contaminated with jet fuel? Let it sit there until you could drain it? I agree with the one who admonished you. You could have drug the plane 20 feet to let them have access to the pump. I recently did a 5 fuel stop cross country. No one around at any of the stops but I still moved my airplane away from the pumps when I was done fueling before I went in to make use of the facilities just in case someone came along. If someone was actually there and I was going to leave right away, I wouldn’t force them to wait on my start up routine. I think it should fall into the common sense/courtesy realm but it doesn’t seem to in reality.
    Last edited by Jeff J; 11-07-2019 at 02:30 PM.

  7. #47

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    Default Re: PA-22 Fatal near Kingman AZ

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff J View Post
    What would you do if the aircraft was contaminated with jet fuel? Let it sit there until you could drain it? I agree with the one who admonished you. You could have drug the plane 20 feet to let them have access to the pump. I recently did a 5 fuel stop cross country. No one around at any of the stops but I still moved my airplane away from the pumps when I was done fueling before I went in to make use of the facilities just in case someone came along. If someone was actually there and I was going to leave right away, I wouldn’t force them to wait on my start up routine. I think it should fall into the common sense/courtesy realm but it doesn’t seem to in reality.
    ^^^ What he said. And sometimes the guy behind you is at the self serve pumps because he's in a legitimate hurry. When we are on aerial photography missions, we're trying to take advantage of all the high-sun daylight we can.

  8. #48

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    Default Re: PA-22 Fatal near Kingman AZ

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff J View Post
    I verify the fuel type before I put it in the airplane. Jet, diesel and gas (unleaded) can be the same color as water.

    What would you do if the aircraft was contaminated with jet fuel? Let it sit there until you could drain it? I agree with the one who admonished you. You could have drug the plane 20 feet to let them have access to the pump. I recently did a 5 fuel stop cross country. No one around at any of the stops but I still moved my airplane away from the pumps when I was done fueling before I went in to make use of the facilities just in case someone came along. If someone was actually there and I was going to leave right away, I wouldn’t force them to wait on my start up routine. I think it should fall into the common sense/courtesy realm but it doesn’t seem to in reality.
    You make a good point, Jeff. I always do move the airplane away from the pump if I'm not departing right away. But I hadn't thought of pulling the aircraft away from the pump before sumping the tanks and starting it up. I'll do that in the future.
    But let me clarify that my friend did not make the same suggestion; what he said was that sumping the tanks immediately after refueling was of no use. The wasted time factor was only implied.

    Tim

  9. #49

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    Default Re: PA-22 Fatal near Kingman AZ

    He was thinking about water in the sumps which I have gotten from public pumps. To be honest, it’s never occurred to me to check for jet in the airplane after pumping avgas but I usually squirt a little fuel on my fingers and sniff it before I put the nozzle in the airplane. Not a popular practice in some parts of the country but I like to clear the nozzle (moisture/bugs) and verify what I am pumping before servicing.

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