Surefly SIM

[Chris Iriarte]

I see the PA-22 is still not on the AML … I’m sure the pandemic has delayed this but has anyone heard when they might be added?

Regards,
Chris

[dgapilot]

You can always go for a Field Approval or DER approval as a deviation to the STC.


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[Steve Pierce]

You might call them. When I called quite some time ago they said they were submitting new models daily. Might be approved just not on the list yet or maybe there is an issue.

[6PapaWhiskey]

Per email from SureFly, the Tripacer was submitted to the FAA in 2020 for approval. COVID is blamed for the delay.

[Subsonic]

Me too. Just waiting for a hiccup from my Slick so I can justify a new SureFly. I think the cost is about the same. No more 500 hour inspections.

Yeah, but I heard you also throw it away at 2,000 hours. No rebuilds. I have to wonder why that is the case.

Sorry, but I need to poke at this a bit to hear smart arguments to the contrary.

Your mag inspection at 500 hours costs what? $120 to $200.00? And, I heard you don't rebuild them, just IRAN, (inspect and replace as necessary) as the coils and rotors live forever. Just bearings, points, capacitors, etc.

The real issue for me is, Mags keep running when your electrical system fails in flight.

I know, I know the argument, magneto ignition timing is from the stone age (not computer controlled for temperature and pressure, no anti-knock/detonation sensing, etc.), and you can save fuel and have a much smoother running engine with electronic ignition, even LOP (lean of peak). I get that too.

But that whole part about "the magneto keeps running when your electrical system fails", is really compelling to me. There are LOTS of potential failure points in an electrical system. Where's the redundancy in an electrical system on a Shortwing - answer: there isn't any. So maybe you go with one mag and one electronic ignition... if so, which one has the impulse coupling? (starting ign retard). Maybe both the mag and the electronic?

Comment freely,
-Subsonic

[Vagabondblues]

Yeah, but I heard you also throw it away at 2,000 hours. No rebuilds. I have to wonder why that is the case.

Sorry, but I need to poke at this a bit to hear smart arguments to the contrary.

Your mag inspection at 500 hours costs what? $120 to $200.00? And, I heard you don't rebuild them, just IRAN, (inspect and replace as necessary) as the coils and rotors live forever. Just bearings, points, capacitors, etc.

The real issue for me is, Mags keep running when your electrical system fails in flight.

I know, I know the argument, magneto ignition timing is from the stone age (not computer controlled for temperature and pressure, no anti-knock/detonation sensing, etc.), and you can save fuel and have a much smoother running engine with electronic ignition, even LOP (lean of peak). I get that too.

But that whole part about "the magneto keeps running when your electrical system fails", is really compelling to me. There are LOTS of potential failure points in an electrical system. Where's the redundancy in an electrical system on a Shortwing - answer: there isn't any. So maybe you go with one mag and one electronic ignition... if so, which one has the impulse coupling? (starting ign retard). Maybe both the mag and the electronic?

Comment freely,
-Subsonic

When I worked at Slick they employed the throw away concept. What that means to me is no maintenance manuals, no spare parts, no support people to write or distribute the manuals, take customer complaint calls, approve warranty, etc.... Just make em and sell em direct to Distribution and Lycoming. Surefly getting them approved by Lycoming as a direct replacement at overhaul was the smartest thing they did, just add it to the Powerplant TCDS under a Service Instruction. Brilliant, deal with an OEM reduce support.

The real cost of a magneto operation is timing drift. E-gap is the point of the strongest lines of flux in the coil. "E" is for efficiency. As the cam wears the timing shifts, causing the points to open late, reducing power, lowering efficiency... As the points wear the timing shifts due to the points opening early in advance of normal timing. Longer dwell time, higher CHT. Timing can drift in as little as 5 hours of operation.

Also the fact that a magneto is an AC generator with symmetrical (positive to negative) spark and Asymmetrical (negative to positive) spark. Quality at Slick use put a mag on test bench with a strobe light so it was possible to see the "Cam Spread" caused by the AC sine wave and poor to low manufacturing tolerance. Cam Spread (strobe would remain on) would be four to five degrees of the fixed timing or E-gap position. In other words when you think your hot stuff and timed it perfectly to 25 degrees on the compression stroke number 1, rotate it to number 2 cylinder and it will be 2.5 to 2 degrees advanced and then to number 3 it will be 2.5 to 2 degrees retarded. All because of the rotating magnet sitting on a shaft riding on a bearing. Its curious that Lycoming's timing allowance is plus or minus two degrees.


Electronic magnetos use a hall effect device and a symmetrical spark. No moving parts. No stack up of tolerances between a shaft a bearing and a frame. Nothing to wear out. Probably the only thing to be done in overhaul is software update revisions.

The current STC'd Surefly SIM module requires you keep one magneto as a backup (Limited Authority), wire the SIM direct to the battery or battery bus with a fuse and have a CHT system. That is truly a "Limited" authority Electronic Engine control. No FADEC.....

The dual Surefly system that Lycoming put in its Service Instruction uses an additional battery for redundancy for which their is no airframe approval! Feild Approval? Remember it is the FAR's that require that you have two independent ignition systems not the manufactures.

[Steve Pierce]

At 2400 hours the Surefly goes back to them for overhaul. There are no moving parts other than a bearing that in any other industry is a lifetime bearing. I am inspecting Cub Crafters X and NX Cubs that have two Surefly ignition units and there is no maintenance other than inspecting the leads and plugs. No timing check or adjustment, no 500 hour inspection. I just did the 500 hr on a pair of Slick mags where the customer wanted me to use the kit which replaces the points, capacitor, carbon brush and gear. The kit is $375 each mag. I usually adjust the e-gap, check the points and carbon brush and put it all back together. It is a 2-3 hour job. If I have to buy parts for any of my Slick mags I am going to install a Surefly. Additional benefit is the immediate start.

[Gilbert Pierce]

So one 500 hour inspection including pats and labor comes to about $600 plus or minus. In 1,000 hours you’ve paid out in 500 hour inspections the cost of a SureFly. Also you need to consider the the annual cost of checking the timing and add to that the additional time (cost) to adjust the timing if necessary and hope you don’t damage the mag gasket requiring you to pull the mag, more money. That’s reality in my world. Something not necessarily realized by those that pay us to annual their airplanes.

When my Slick fails I’ll install a SureFly. That in part is driven by the fact that since Champion bought Slick and implemented many “quality improvements “ cost reductions. In my previous life as a manufacturing engineer cost reductions required by the bean counters were quality improvements in the marketing world and qualify improvements in name only. Therefor you stand very good chance in ending up with multiple recalls on your new $1200 plus tax and shipping Champion mag.

[Vagabondblues]

When my Slick fails I’ll install a SureFly.

Have you read the Engine STC and Airframe STC paperwork and install manuals?

Must have a battery with a capacity above 20 amps. I thought the lightweight Hawker is only 16 amps of capacity? Cannot use a spin on oil filter if you upgrade the impulse coupled magneto LH side, that is what spruce is saying. Do you have an electronic tach? Does it work with EI? or do you have to purchase a signal conditioner?

Have to use 100 LL for the variable timing option? Of course you will also need a CHT system if you don't already have one.

Todd

[Steve Pierce]

Why can't you use a spin on oil filter? EI has the signal filter figured out.