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Thread: Surefly SIM

  1. #21

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    Default Re: Surefly SIM

    So, The SIM4P is $1,395.00., plus shipping, tax. https://www.surefly.aero/products Approx $1,522.00 to my door.

    plus materials listed below, right?

    1) Dedicated 12V (14 AWG - Mil spec) power wire, ring terminals, with 10A fuse and holder from battery to SIM (Surefly Ignition Module). Can I use my original Mag switch? Don't know. Estimate - $40.00 if original magneto key switch can be reused, to the "L" terminal (impulse coupled mag replacement). More $ if not.

    2) I have an EI digital Tach, which makes me think I may need another gizmo - SureFly TACH2 Signal Converter - $162.00 - has to be mounted to airframe with nuts and bolts under panel, wired into EI electrical and requires 12V power from the circuit breaker panel, too.

    3) Need to tap into manifold pressure and run a line to the SIM. Can I T-off my existing original MAP gauge line? Maybe it's that simple, or "no", you need to tap in separately...Don't know. - $15 parts?

    4) Do I need to replace my ignition wires? I don't have Slick Mags. I have Bendix. Do I need a Slick Mag harness? More $

    5) Install wiring/fuse, install vacuum lines, install SIM, install tach signal converter, check installation, start/run, check functional, adjust timing, verify no new radio and intercom noise, etc. All of that probably takes a day or so, 6-10 hours of shop labor??? ~ $600-$1,000.00?

    So, I'm coming up with a ballpark estimate of $2,400 to $2,850.00 total.
    Last edited by Subsonic; 07-12-2021 at 06:08 PM.

  2. #22
    Vagabondblues's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surefly SIM

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Why can't you use a spin on oil filter? EI has the signal filter figured out.
    just being a piss ant. But spruces description said it won't work

  3. #23
    Vagabondblues's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surefly SIM

    Quote Originally Posted by Subsonic View Post
    So, The SIM4P is $1,395.00., plus shipping, tax. https://www.surefly.aero/products Approx $1,522.00 to my door.

    plus materials listed below, right?

    1) Dedicated 12V (14 AWG - Mil spec) power wire, ring terminals, with 10A fuse and holder from battery to SIM (Surefly Ignition Module). Can I use my original Mag switch? Don't know. Estimate - $40.00 if original magneto key switch can be reused, to the "L" terminal (impulse coupled mag replacement). More $ if not.

    2) I have an EI digital Tach, which makes me think I may need another gizmo - SureFly TACH2 Signal Converter - $162.00 - has to be mounted to airframe with nuts and bolts under panel, wired into EI electrical and requires 12V power from the circuit breaker panel, too.

    3) Need to tap into manifold pressure and run a line to the SIM. Can I T-off my existing original MAP gauge line? Maybe it's that simple, or "no", you need to tap in separately...Don't know. - $15 parts?

    4) Do I need to replace my ignition wires? I don't have Slick Mags. I have Bendix. Do I need a Slick Mag harness? More $

    5) Install wiring/fuse, install vacuum lines, install SIM, install tach signal converter, check installation, start/run, check functional, adjust timing, verify no new radio and intercom noise, etc. All of that probably takes a day or so, 6-10 hours of shop labor??? ~ $600-$1,000.00?

    So, I'm coming up with a ballpark estimate of $2,400 to $2,850.00 total.
    If you have the hawker battery installed you will need a new battery.

    If you have Slick mags you can reuse the harness although they recommend new plugs and harness.

    STC says you can tap into existing Manifold pressure lines.

    SIM will draw power continuously from the battery in standby mode, so you will need a maintenance charger when not in use sitting in the hangar.
    Last edited by Vagabondblues; 07-12-2021 at 06:20 PM.

  4. #24
    Administrator Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surefly SIM

    Wire, ring terminal, hose and fuse come with the kit. Works with standard ignition switch and wiring. Doesn't take long to install and you don't have to use variable timing if you don't want to. With what I spend maintaining mags and if I have to buy parts it seems like a win for me.

  5. #25

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    Default Re: Surefly SIM

    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabondblues View Post

    SIM will draw power continuously from the battery in standby mode, so you will need a maintenance charger when not in use sitting in the hangar.
    That right there is enough to make me want to avoid it. When I shut off the master switch I do not want anything drawing power. The same holds true for everything I own except the car and I wish everything in it could be killed with the key. The only thing I own kept on a charger is my boat but it needs charged after every use because there is no charging system for the trolling batteries.

  6. #26

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    Default Re: Surefly SIM

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Wire, ring terminal, hose and fuse come with the kit. Works with standard ignition switch and wiring. Doesn't take long to install and you don't have to use variable timing if you don't want to. With what I spend maintaining mags and if I have to buy parts it seems like a win for me.
    Steve, Don't get me wrong on all of this, it's good to hear from someone who's installed one of these things. I'm a fan of better technology and I do want variable timing that peaks the engine performance. Who doesn't want variable timing?

    I just have to really believe its better to move forward and change something that has been reliable for 65 years on my plane. And, I don't have to worry about my battery, generator/alternator, voltage regulator, or other electrical components that might take out my electrical system, failing in flight and causing my engine to stop running. That's actually not true - as long as the remaining magneto keeps working. The SIM will stop firing if it doesn't see 9 VDC continuously. Sorry for the gross oversimplification.

    The key for me to use this new technology is this: Efficiency. If I have one magneto and one SIM, that in combination makes my engine run much better and provides increased efficiency for its lifetime, it may pay for itself. Some say a real 4-10% increase in efficiency over the life of the SIM.

    That works out to: 2,400 hours x 8.5 gallons per hour = 20,400 gallons of blue gas at $4.25 per gallon = $86,700.00. If I save 4 to 10% that's $3,468.00 to $8,670.00. The SIM is less than $2,800.00 to install, if I understand your somewhat nebulous response. Factor of 2 to 3 in uncertainty applies, (new technology rules) so I conclude that if it is reliable for 2,400 hours, it will probably pay for itself. It has to really live 2,400 hours and really deliver increased efficiency to realize those gains. Then, I should also count the savings in one magneto's maintenance and overhaul. And, maybe the engine lifetime is increased because of the better running conditions? It's possible. Engines are real expenses in our world.

    In case the SIM fails in flight, I have the old reliable original magneto. Perceptive and progressive folks will counter with; it may be the SIM that gets you home when your original magneto fails. Perhaps.

    When I think about my experience in the last 30 years with silicon chip technology, their reliability is about 93%. That's from my aerospace experience. 7 in 100 don't live up to expectations. One of those little bits of silicon gets a snitty fit, and there should be redundant back ups and limp home modes, I think, but if not, I'm down to one mag.

    I'm almost cool with that risk given the potential benefits. I think I'll dwell on it just a while longer. Thanks for all your inputs, I do appreciate them.

    -Subsonic
    Last edited by Subsonic; 07-13-2021 at 12:45 AM.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Surefly SIM

    I see it as a win from a maintenance point of view, easier to maintain and no mechanical parts. I have maintained, trouble shot and repaired a lot of mags over the years. Slick/Unison/Champion has put a very bad taste in my mouth. I end up having to research magneto service bulletins every time I get a new airplane in like an AD research. They change things, the parts fail and I have to disassemble the mag and replace at the owners expense. Been maintaining Carbon Cubs for quite a while now with the Lightspeed ignition, one part failure (crank trigger). I know the guys that came up with the Surefly SIM, prior to that they came up with the SkyTec starter line and the Plane Power alternators. They are very sharp and helpful in everyway. I installed the Surefly on a Super Cub that I rebuilt and am maintaining at least 3 NX Cubs with Surefly on both sides and a backup battery. Time will tell.

  8. #28

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    Default Re: Surefly SIM

    Out of curiosity, what happens when the SIM loses power? I disconnect batteries to perform some maintenance tasks and during annual inspections to service the battery and inspect the box, not to mention batteries get changed every day.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Surefly SIM

    Nothing except the unit will not generate a spark. The timing is set using 4 DIP switches, so the unit can't "forget" the settings.
    Tom P.
    Wagabond @ 08A

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Surefly SIM

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff J View Post
    Out of curiosity, what happens when the SIM loses power? I disconnect batteries to perform some maintenance tasks and during annual inspections to service the battery and inspect the box, not to mention batteries get changed every day.
    I think you have to understand both functions of the sim module.

    The first is that trigger event is 100 percent electrical, no cam no points, etc.. see attached image of battery ignition system from FAA mechanics handbook. When the switch is open no volts can build in the coil. No draw on the battery.

    The second function is to change the fixed timing to a variable. From my experience the engine is “mapped” and a “look up” graph is programmed into a small microprocessor. At a given mapped manifold and RPM combination the trigger event(timing) is commanded normally in advance of the fixed 25 degrees. The variable can advance up to 38 degrees before TDC.

    The problems we had at Slick twenty years ago was that the microprocessors need a minimum voltage to run. To prevent internal damage the processor would shut itself off when volts dropped below 7 volts. Ironically this low volt fault occurred only when using a Sky-Tec starter. The software had no designed reset or process to wait until the starter was off and voltage would rise. I understand that the Surefly needs three full revolutions (enough time for volts to rise) for it to come online. This may also explain the engine roughness at the mag drop test using the SIM.

    I believe that this may be why they want a charger on the battery if it stays unused longer than a month. Primarily to prevent voltage drop to the microprocessor upon starter cranking.
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    Last edited by Vagabondblues; 07-18-2021 at 07:48 PM.

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