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Thread: Had to do my first reject this past weekend.....

  1. #1
    Pacerfgoe's Avatar
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    Default Had to do my first reject this past weekend.....

    It was reasonably warm at about 23 degrees C (74F), density altitude at about 4100', and fairly humid (unusual for Alberta), and I was running my buddy (Scott) over from his farm strip to another airport eight miles away that I had just come from. I was at this other airport to fuel up (full tanks).

    We both jumped in and belted up....I started taxiing for the far end of the strip as there was a slight breeze (2-3 KTS) favoring that runway.....slightly up hill, grass, and fairly long. We discussed performance on the backtrack and off the top of my head I new we were under gross, but only by about 50 lbs. I chose not to use flaps for takeoff (which I usually do) because I didn't want the additional drag added to the already marginal performance.

    I suspected troubles as soon as I pushed the throttle in....not a whole lot of jam out of the tired old 290-D but it got us moving, and eventually the tail came up and we were accelerating....slowly. Just past half way down the 2600' strip, at about 50 MPH I started to pull back on the yolk to get airborne, the tail wheel came in contact with the ground and we started slowing.....not even a hint of flight a possibility.....pulled the power, on the brakes and stopped without to much drama.

    Scott and I discussed what just happened and decided to just give one shot at it down wind and downhill, and this takeoff went much better with us getting in the air 2/3rds the way down the runway and with good acceleration after breaking free of the long grass.

    The story here is things piling up on you to bite you in the ass, while doing a take off out of a place you've done many many uneventful departures. That night as I was at home enjoying a stiff drink, I got out my manuals and examined the numbers. I have two manuals, one a duplicate copy of the manual for my plane from Piper, and another small red covered owners handbook from Piper.
    I was shocked to find out that the books have about a 400' difference in them for the same takeoff... gross weight (1800), paved level dry runway, still air, slowest turning wood prop, in standard conditions, to 50'

    Just a story I thought I should share....

  2. #2

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    Default Re: Had to do my first reject this past weekend.....

    Down wind down hill is almost always preferable to up hill into the wind unless the wind is really blowing.


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  3. #3
    CamTom12's Avatar
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    Default Re: Had to do my first reject this past weekend.....

    I bet you'd have had better luck with your flaps at the first notch, too.

  4. #4
    siouxpilot77's Avatar
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    Default Re: Had to do my first reject this past weekend.....

    I remember reading In the aerodynamics for naval aviators (yes, I read it in college for a class) 30 degrees of flaps actually gives you the best lift. Anything after 30 it’s adding more drag then lift. Anything less then 30 it’s adding more lift then drag. If that makes sense




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  5. #5

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    Default Re: Had to do my first reject this past weekend.....

    I usually don’t know how many degrees the flaps are set at from airplane to airplane but the rule of thumb I follow is to match the aileron down travel for where to set the the flaps to get max lift.

    It is usually better to takeoff downhill with a light tailwind than go uphill.
    Last edited by Jeff J; 07-19-2019 at 10:47 AM.

  6. #6
    rocket's Avatar
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    Default Re: Had to do my first reject this past weekend.....

    Our POH is vary clear on the use of flaps for takeoff.

    first things first: Forrest, congrats on making the choice to abort. Many don't and eat the trees etc.

    Our short wings airplanes are much more succeptable to density altitude and needs to be kept in mind aviating in these conditions. Cool mornings and breezy days are our friends.

    I have never had to abort on wheels mostly because I've not put myself in that position out in treeless western Alaska. I now live in south central and the trees are tall...

    On floats I've aborted countless times operating out of my 2100 foot float pond. I keep this imaginary line in mind and that is the go no go abort line. Guess it should be the same with every takeoff regardless of gear configuration. A lot of our Alaskan Bush flying doesn't allow room for error. We get out and walk these strips, kick rocks and move logs, get out the hand saw, and on occasion the tent. In the end it is up to use to make good decision for our safty but more so for the souls who ride along trusting us to be safe. And skis... No aborting on skis, or rather no stoping. Let me tell you about the time I...

    Rocket

  7. #7
    CamTom12's Avatar
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    Default Re: Had to do my first reject this past weekend.....

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket View Post
    Our POH is vary clear on the use of flaps for takeoff.

    first things first: Forrest, congrats on making the choice to abort. Many don't and eat the trees etc.
    Rocket, good point, and I agree. Forrest, good job making a great decision and figuring out how to do it right and safely. Now let's talk about some additional tips and tricks that can help you next time.

    Back to flaps, all our take-off distances in the POH are with flaps deployed. The manual says the following:

    Take-off in the Tri-Pacer is accomplished as follows:
    (1) Set stabilizer trim to approximately neutral with exact setting determined by the loading of the plane.
    (2) Apply full throttle, allowing plane to maintain its level attitude until take-off speed (50-60 MPH) is approached, then ease back control wheel to obtain climbing attitude.
    (3) For take-offs in heavy grass, snow, or in other speed retarding surfaces, drag on the landing gear can be reduced by raising the nose wheel off of the surface during the take-off run by applying back pressure on the control wheel shortly after the throttle is opened.
    (4) The application of full flaps as take-off speed is approached, will reduce the take-off run about 20 percent. Flaps can be pulled down before the take-off run is started hut will reduce the acceleration of the plane somewhat if kept down throughout the take-off.
    I actually pull the first notch before I apply power, because it gets the flap handle up where I can easily reach it without reaching too far. When I reach about 45mph I'll pull the flap handle to the stop with some aft yoke, then I'll let the flap handle set into the full-flaps notch. Once I've got my climb speed attained, I reduce to the first notch of flaps. This keeps some extra lift in the wing and keeps the plane at a reasonable deck angle while reducing some drag.
    Last edited by CamTom12; 07-19-2019 at 12:43 PM.

  8. #8
    Pacerfgoe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Had to do my first reject this past weekend.....

    Quote Originally Posted by CamTom12 View Post

    Back to flaps, all our take-off distances in the POH are with flaps deployed.
    Not So..... My plane is a 125 HP Pacer and all takeoffs are flaps up (extra drag combined with not a whole lot of power isn't good).

    The second best thing I could have done was to get to flying speed and then use flaps to "pop" it in the air (like the supercub guys do) and then accelerate in ground effect....problem is I can't reach the flap handle with the shoulder harness on snug.

    The best thing I could have done.... is get off my ass and install the 150HP engine that's been sitting in the shop for months (maybe a year++).....LOL

  9. #9
    andya's Avatar
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    Default Re: Had to do my first reject this past weekend.....

    early on when I first got my pacer (150hp) I was trying different prop pitches (had friends with extras).
    Tried a 62 " pitch and seemed like it used a little more runway on hard surface, but runway was long anyway.
    Took it to a friends immaculate grass farm strip and on departure there (the grass had not been mowed lately and
    was long) took noticeably longer to lift off, once it broke free felt pretty good. moral of the story, little longer grass
    than fresh cut will cost you in ground run before it flys
    "Progress is our most important problem"

  10. #10
    CamTom12's Avatar
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    Default Re: Had to do my first reject this past weekend.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerfgoe View Post
    Not So..... My plane is a 125 HP Pacer and all takeoffs are flaps up (extra drag combined with not a whole lot of power isn't good).

    The second best thing I could have done was to get to flying speed and then use flaps to "pop" it in the air (like the supercub guys do) and then accelerate in ground effect....problem is I can't reach the flap handle with the shoulder harness on snug.

    The best thing I could have done.... is get off my ass and install the 150HP engine that's been sitting in the shop for months (maybe a year++).....LOL
    Well, that's a good point then. I haven't read the 125hp POH. Sorry for assuming!

    Get on that engine swap!!

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