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Thread: Wag Aero Wagabond vs Sportsman 2+2

  1. #31

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    Default Re: Wag Aero Wagabond vs Sportsman 2+2

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Wayne Mackey's SC's are amazing performers. Be aware that slats or cuffs get their performance by increasing the AOA. I watched Wayne years ago putting his SQ 2 to the test at Johnson Creek. His deck angle landing was very high, he walked the plane down the field with very little visibility. Big flaps will lower the deck angle. You are on the right track, lots of wing surface, good engine/prop performance and light weight. Pacers with a few mods can come close to a stock SC performance. You might check out the Highlander. What is the difference in empty weight of the Wag and 2+2?
    Wag Classic empty weight = 700 lbs
    Wag Traveler empty weight = 800 lbs

    2+2 empty weight = 1080 lbs

    I have looked into the high lander. It is rather interesting, although not up to the mission I am trying to accomplish, which is not necessarily carrying a fully quartered moose, but to have SC performance (or better).

    You brought up the wing surface, engine prop performance and weight, I have actually been looking at several of the most popular bush/STOL aircraft and comparing there wing surfaces, wing lengths, fuse lengths and widths, and there weights. It is very interesting to see some things change over different aircrafts but other attributes dont.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Wag Aero Wagabond vs Sportsman 2+2

    Quote Originally Posted by fish2keel View Post
    Wag Classic empty weight = 700 lbs
    Wag Traveler empty weight = 800 lbs

    2+2 empty weight = 1080 lbs

    I have looked into the high lander. It is rather interesting, although not up to the mission I am trying to accomplish, which is not necessarily carrying a fully quartered moose, but to have SC performance (or better).

    You brought up the wing surface, engine prop performance and weight, I have actually been looking at several of the most popular bush/STOL aircraft and comparing there wing surfaces, wing lengths, fuse lengths and widths, and there weights. It is very interesting to see some things change over different aircrafts but other attributes dont.
    Useful loads for the Wags maybe be around 600 to 700 lbs, the 2+2 might be 800 to 900. Cubs maybe 800 to 900 lbs. The Highlander is about 700 lbs. Stretched Pacers 800 to 900 lbs.

    Can you stretch a Wag and keep it under 900 lbs and have a GW of 2000 lbs.? And, have SC performance? Stretching my Pacer only added 80 lbs. My BM empty weight is 1160 and GW is 2100 lbs.
    "You can only tie the record for flying low."

  3. #33

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    Default Re: Wag Aero Wagabond vs Sportsman 2+2

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Useful loads for the Wags maybe be around 600 to 700 lbs, the 2+2 might be 800 to 900. Cubs maybe 800 to 900 lbs. The Highlander is about 700 lbs. Stretched Pacers 800 to 900 lbs.

    Can you stretch a Wag and keep it under 900 lbs and have a GW of 2000 lbs.? And, have SC performance? Stretching my Pacer only added 80 lbs. My BM empty weight is 1160 and GW is 2100 lbs.

    Interesting that you say that. Wag aero puts the traveler wag at a gross weight of 1450. They put the 2+2 at 2200 lbs.

    Here is the link for the 2+2 specs. https://www.wagaero.com/wag-aero-kit...tsman-2-2.html

    It seems for what im looking to do, is to build the 2+2 since it already has pretty close SC specs for length and wing space. It will need flaps but atleast the plans are set up closer to SC specs then the wag. Would you agree or is it best to go with the plans for the wag, stretch it and use Northland CD SC plans for tail feathers and wings?

    I did want to note in the means of saving weight, I will be using wood and carbon fiber throughout the build, as well as aluminum.

  4. #34

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    Default Re: Wag Aero Wagabond vs Sportsman 2+2

    It seems like the producer is the way to go, which seems to be the experimental version of the bushmaster.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Wag Aero Wagabond vs Sportsman 2+2

    Quote Originally Posted by fish2keel View Post
    It seems like the producer is the way to go, which seems to be the experimental version of the bushmaster.
    The Bushmaster is generally the experimental version of the Superpacer (stretched PA22) which uses some SC features. The Producer is also a stretched PA22 but, it uses some PA14 features. You cannot purchase plans and build a Producer. The Superpacer plans are available.

    The GW's for the Wag are higher than I assumed, I figured 1320. I would not stretch the Wag unless you figured you could go to at least a 2000 GW. Possibly using a SC wing design would meet most of these loads. Engineers multiply GW by 3.8g plus reserve to calculate the max wing loading. I'm curious what the 2+2 did to get to a 2200 lb GW. I know that the Superpacer (Bushmaster) designers did all the required load tests to get a 2100 GW. I have videos showing the tests. I assumed the 2+2 is basically the PA14 which I believed had a GW just over 1800 lbs. Maybe they use a beefed up SC wing.
    "You can only tie the record for flying low."

  6. #36

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    Default Re: Wag Aero Wagabond vs Sportsman 2+2

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    The Bushmaster is generally the experimental version of the Superpacer (stretched PA22) which uses some SC features. The Producer is also a stretched PA22 but, it uses some PA14 features. You cannot purchase plans and build a Producer. The Superpacer plans are available.

    The GW's for the Wag are higher than I assumed, I figured 1320. I would not stretch the Wag unless you figured you could go to at least a 2000 GW. Possibly using a SC wing design would meet most of these loads. Engineers multiply GW by 3.8g plus reserve to calculate the max wing loading. I'm curious what the 2+2 did to get to a 2200 lb GW. I know that the Superpacer (Bushmaster) designers did all the required load tests to get a 2100 GW. I have videos showing the tests. I assumed the 2+2 is basically the PA14 which I believed had a GW just over 1800 lbs. Maybe they use a beefed up SC wing.
    Stephen, I believe it is the beefed up SC wing that you mention. I think this all points to starting with the 2+2 plans for the fuse, then going with SC tail feathers and wings. Would you agree? Do you have any recommendation on where to go for these? I have also looked at the STOL V6 for plans as well.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Wag Aero Wagabond vs Sportsman 2+2

    Contact August2whls on this site for the Superpacer (Bushmaster) plans. He owns the STC and has all the plans.

    As far as saving weight goes. I'm not sure using wood will help much. Assuming you are referring to wing ribs. I would compare the weight of a hand made wooden rib to an original type aluminum truss rib Piper made. Most newer Piper style ribs are heavier. Using carbon fiber is helpful but, limited. I have a carbon fiber wing tip which saved me about 4 lbs over the fiber glass. The carbon Cub uses carbon fiber interior panels, I removed all my interior panels and insulation.

    It seems the 2+2 or an experimental Bushmaster are good choices.
    "You can only tie the record for flying low."

  8. #38

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    Default Re: Wag Aero Wagabond vs Sportsman 2+2

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Contact August2whls on this site for the Superpacer (Bushmaster) plans. He owns the STC and has all the plans.

    As far as saving weight goes. I'm not sure using wood will help much. Assuming you are referring to wing ribs. I would compare the weight of a hand made wooden rib to an original type aluminum truss rib Piper made. Most newer Piper style ribs are heavier. Using carbon fiber is helpful but, limited. I have a carbon fiber wing tip which saved me about 4 lbs over the fiber glass. The carbon Cub uses carbon fiber interior panels, I removed all my interior panels and insulation.

    It seems the 2+2 or an experimental Bushmaster are good choices.
    Stephen, Would I need the STC bushmaster plans to get the SC plans? I was assuming I should get the Wagaero 2+2 plans for the fuse, then get SC plans for the wings and tail feathers, both being separate sets. Is this incorrect?

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Wag Aero Wagabond vs Sportsman 2+2

    Quote Originally Posted by fish2keel View Post
    Stephen, I believe it is the beefed up SC wing that you mention. I think this all points to starting with the 2+2 plans for the fuse, then going with SC tail feathers and wings. Would you agree? Do you have any recommendation on where to go for these? I have also looked at the STOL V6 for plans as well.
    The Bushmaster wing is significantly stronger than a SC, you should look at their wing for what ever design you do. It has more ribs, leading edge and compression struts. I my BM wing span is also longer than a stock SC.
    "You can only tie the record for flying low."

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Wag Aero Wagabond vs Sportsman 2+2

    Quote Originally Posted by fish2keel View Post
    Stephen, Would I need the STC bushmaster plans to get the SC plans? I was assuming I should get the Wagaero 2+2 plans for the fuse, then get SC plans for the wings and tail feathers, both being separate sets. Is this incorrect?
    If you go with the 2+2 look over their wing plans. You can PM me and we could compare what I have regarding the BM wing. Also, ask the Wagaero people what was done to the 2+2 to up the GW from the old PA14. Also, make sure you will be happy with the interior cockpit width. The PA14 was a bit too tight for me and someone sitting beside me. Two big people in my PA22/BM is cozy.
    "You can only tie the record for flying low."

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