Welcome! Becoming a registered user of ShortWingPipers.Org is free and easy! Click the "Register" link found in the upper right hand corner of this screen. It's easy and you can then join the fun posting and learning about Short Wing Pipers!

Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Float Takeoff Trim

  1. #1
    scotthayd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    63
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Float Takeoff Trim

    I have been experimenting with float takeoffs and wanted to report an observation.

    First I should say I'm flying a stretched pacer aka Bushmaster with a 180 hp motor and 2440 floats, standard pacer tailfeathers.

    I have found that if I make a standard takeoff (trim neutral, one notch flaps, hold the yolk back until the second rise then ease forward until you gain some speed then let if fly off) when heavy I have to push the nose over after the second rise. I'm working on developing the right touch for that push over the top.

    I have experimented with trimming all the way forward. When I do that I don't have to push the nose over, and I also get a significantly shorter takeoff run. I'm not sure why that is, but it really seems to work.
    The only downside I have noticed is that after takeoff I spend a lot of time cranking on the trim.

    I have a couple of theories on why a forward trimmed takeoff may be shorter.
    1) Maybe it noses over with a more proper amount of force after the second rise with forward trim. I try to push it over gently when trimmed neutral, but it can be hard to judge.
    2) Maybe the nose up forces of neutral trim plus yolk full back are higher when trimmed neutral, and I'm dragging the float heels too hard. Would a neutral yolk through the second rise would have the same result as forward trimming?
    3) Maybe the forward trim is pushing the nose lower when running on the step, getting me deeper into the "sweet spot" than I normally get with neutral trim. It's psychologically hard to push the nose forward when you're running on the step. Harder than just releasing a little back pressure.

    Whatever it is, if I'm loaded heavy I get up on the step and off the water sooner if I trim the nose all the way down.
    Interested to hear other people's opinions. Also wondering if this works on wheel takeoffs.

  2. #2
    1958pacer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    54
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Float Takeoff Trim

    Following this, I wish more with experience would chime in. I completed my float rating last September in my 22/20 with 160hp. I received great instruction but would love to hear from pacer pilots on floats.

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Frederick MD
    Posts
    707
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Float Takeoff Trim

    It's been a long time since I flew floats. Used to fly a PA-22-150 on 2000s, and a PA-20 on 1650s. As I recall, the PA-20 got out of the water faster, but only if lightly loaded. We always had trim neutral, never really played with different trim settings for take off. Over on the Super Cub forum there has been a discussion on trim for take off, you might want to check that out.

    From a personal standpoint, unless you are really trying to get out short, I prefer neutral trim, I don't like having to make large trim changes close to the ground if I don't have to.

  4. #4
    bvmbandit's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    43
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Float Takeoff Trim

    Kinda wondering why the bushmaster is flying around with Pacer tail feathers...I always assumed they used the PA18 tail feathers...

    - Vern







    Quote Originally Posted by scotthayd View Post
    I have been experimenting with float takeoffs and wanted to report an observation.

    First I should say I'm flying a stretched pacer aka Bushmaster with a 180 hp motor and 2440 floats, standard pacer tailfeathers.

    I have found that if I make a standard takeoff (trim neutral, one notch flaps, hold the yolk back until the second rise then ease forward until you gain some speed then let if fly off) when heavy I have to push the nose over after the second rise. I'm working on developing the right touch for that push over the top.

    I have experimented with trimming all the way forward. When I do that I don't have to push the nose over, and I also get a significantly shorter takeoff run. I'm not sure why that is, but it really seems to work.
    The only downside I have noticed is that after takeoff I spend a lot of time cranking on the trim.

    I have a couple of theories on why a forward trimmed takeoff may be shorter.
    1) Maybe it noses over with a more proper amount of force after the second rise with forward trim. I try to push it over gently when trimmed neutral, but it can be hard to judge.
    2) Maybe the nose up forces of neutral trim plus yolk full back are higher when trimmed neutral, and I'm dragging the float heels too hard. Would a neutral yolk through the second rise would have the same result as forward trimming?
    3) Maybe the forward trim is pushing the nose lower when running on the step, getting me deeper into the "sweet spot" than I normally get with neutral trim. It's psychologically hard to push the nose forward when you're running on the step. Harder than just releasing a little back pressure.

    Whatever it is, if I'm loaded heavy I get up on the step and off the water sooner if I trim the nose all the way down.
    Interested to hear other people's opinions. Also wondering if this works on wheel takeoffs.

  5. #5
    rocket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Talkeetna AK
    Posts
    908
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Float Takeoff Trim

    Quote Originally Posted by 1958pacer View Post
    Following this, I wish more with experience would chime in. I completed my float rating last September in my 22/20 with 160hp. I received great instruction but would love to hear from pacer pilots on floats.
    In regard to Scott: you didn't mention how many hours of float time you have and how many in your current ride? your beast is little like a pacer so mostly you are on your own. You will find a lot opinions about this from people without a lot of real experience. Do us a favor, figure it out, do a good write up,and post it here. It will be appreciated some day by someone.

    58,
    I racked up about 2000 float hours in my Tripacer with a smattering of other float bird time there abouts. I did fly with some of the best bush pilots in ak and soaked up all I could. As an A&P I got to see all the stupid. I checked a good handful of the stupid boxes myself.


    Like Scott above you failed to mention your experience and that tells us what you might need to know.


    My first float CFI got me soloed in the Batplane at lake hood and I was off, my real float CFI worked with me and told me it would take 300 hours to learn and be proficient on floats. Ha, 2000 hours and I still don't know it all.


    A few quick things until you get back with your hours and experience:
    -Take off and land left tank only-it's a real thing
    -2500 ft of water until you have 300 hours in her
    -never land down wind and be quick with the elevator when you do- all of it right now, and be ready to firewall a rudder pedal as she jags hard to the left
    -two place bird on floats - really
    -glue water tight your two aft (4 ea) inspection covers
    -always have the abort point picked out before takeoff and use it- really


    -next spring get out and do 10-20 take offs and landing every time you go up.


    Oh ya, the question was trim. The landing trim is the same as takeoff trim, I count turns rather then looking up at the indicator during a critical phase of flight: eyes outside! So once you land trim is set for take off, see easy peasy. I count how many turns to trim for level flight and have in my head how many I need for landing configuration. I don't piddle it in, I pull power pitch for airspeed and dial in the trim as she slows down so we don't balloon. After that it's all power for rate of decent. Better really bring it in as you round out: power powwer powwer as your CFI no doubt chanted over and over again.


    Don't stare at your tach, eyes outside, hand on the throttle and don't be afraid to smoothly shove the whole thing in, she'll thank you later for not banging her into the water. Pheww... are we all done? The three M's: mags mixture master. Every time.


    I hang my key on the trim handle so as I cross the wire I can look through the windscreen up at it before grabbing the prop, if it's not there no touchy.


    One more thing, compleat all your checklist shenanigans on the dock before untying and starting. No time for this as you are drifting off the dock into other planes or boats or river current: head up and outside the floatplane at all times.


    In exchange for my typing this screed you should post a couple cool photos of your bird and where you fly her.

    im sure I'm forgetting a bunch...


    Rocket

  6. #6
    1958pacer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    54
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Float Takeoff Trim

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket View Post
    In regard to Scott: you didn't mention how many hours of float time you have and how many in your current ride? your beast is little like a pacer so mostly you are on your own. You will find a lot opinions about this from people without a lot of real experience. Do us a favor, figure it out, do a good write up,and post it here. It will be appreciated some day by someone.

    58,
    I racked up about 2000 float hours in my Tripacer with a smattering of other float bird time there abouts. I did fly with some of the best bush pilots in ak and soaked up all I could. As an A&P I got to see all the stupid. I checked a good handful of the stupid boxes myself.


    Like Scott above you failed to mention your experience and that tells us what you might need to know.


    My first float CFI got me soloed in the Batplane at lake hood and I was off, my real float CFI worked with me and told me it would take 300 hours to learn and be proficient on floats. Ha, 2000 hours and I still don't know it all.


    A few quick things until you get back with your hours and experience:
    -Take off and land left tank only-it's a real thing
    -2500 ft of water until you have 300 hours in her
    -never land down wind and be quick with the elevator when you do- all of it right now, and be ready to firewall a rudder pedal as she jags hard to the left
    -two place bird on floats - really
    -glue water tight your two aft (4 ea) inspection covers
    -always have the abort point picked out before takeoff and use it- really


    -next spring get out and do 10-20 take offs and landing every time you go up.


    Oh ya, the question was trim. The landing trim is the same as takeoff trim, I count turns rather then looking up at the indicator during a critical phase of flight: eyes outside! So once you land trim is set for take off, see easy peasy. I count how many turns to trim for level flight and have in my head how many I need for landing configuration. I don't piddle it in, I pull power pitch for airspeed and dial in the trim as she slows down so we don't balloon. After that it's all power for rate of decent. Better really bring it in as you round out: power powwer powwer as your CFI no doubt chanted over and over again.


    Don't stare at your tach, eyes outside, hand on the throttle and don't be afraid to smoothly shove the whole thing in, she'll thank you later for not banging her into the water. Pheww... are we all done? The three M's: mags mixture master. Every time.


    I hang my key on the trim handle so as I cross the wire I can look through the windscreen up at it before grabbing the prop, if it's not there no touchy.


    One more thing, compleat all your checklist shenanigans on the dock before untying and starting. No time for this as you are drifting off the dock into other planes or boats or river current: head up and outside the floatplane at all times.


    In exchange for my typing this screed you should post a couple cool photos of your bird and where you fly her.

    im sure I'm forgetting a bunch...


    Rocket
    Wow! Thatís a lot to chew on. Thank you!
    im gonna need to read this over and over
    paul

  7. #7
    1958pacer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    54
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Float Takeoff Trim

    I am working on the photo for you and I am east of Toronto , this was VERY helpful

  8. #8
    1958pacer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    54
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Float Takeoff Trim

    Sorr
    Quote Originally Posted by rocket View Post
    In regard to Scott: you didn't mention how many hours of float time you have and how many in your current ride? your beast is little like a pacer so mostly you are on your own. You will find a lot opinions about this from people without a lot of real experience. Do us a favor, figure it out, do a good write up,and post it here. It will be appreciated some day by someone.

    58,
    I racked up about 2000 float hours in my Tripacer with a smattering of other float bird time there abouts. I did fly with some of the best bush pilots in ak and soaked up all I could. As an A&P I got to see all the stupid. I checked a good handful of the stupid boxes myself.


    Like Scott above you failed to mention your experience and that tells us what you might need to know.


    My first float CFI got me soloed in the Batplane at lake hood and I was off, my real float CFI worked with me and told me it would take 300 hours to learn and be proficient on floats. Ha, 2000 hours and I still don't know it all.


    A few quick things until you get back with your hours and experience:
    -Take off and land left tank only-it's a real thing
    -2500 ft of water until you have 300 hours in her
    -never land down wind and be quick with the elevator when you do- all of it right now, and be ready to firewall a rudder pedal as she jags hard to the left
    -two place bird on floats - really
    -glue water tight your two aft (4 ea) inspection covers
    -always have the abort point picked out before takeoff and use it- really


    -next spring get out and do 10-20 take offs and landing every time you go up.


    Oh ya, the question was trim. The landing trim is the same as takeoff trim, I count turns rather then looking up at the indicator during a critical phase of flight: eyes outside! So once you land trim is set for take off, see easy peasy. I count how many turns to trim for level flight and have in my head how many I need for landing configuration. I don't piddle it in, I pull power pitch for airspeed and dial in the trim as she slows down so we don't balloon. After that it's all power for rate of decent. Better really bring it in as you round out: power powwer powwer as your CFI no doubt chanted over and over again.


    Don't stare at your tach, eyes outside, hand on the throttle and don't be afraid to smoothly shove the whole thing in, she'll thank you later for not banging her into the water. Pheww... are we all done? The three M's: mags mixture master. Every time.


    I hang my key on the trim handle so as I cross the wire I can look through the windscreen up at it before grabbing the prop, if it's not there no touchy.


    One more thing, compleat all your checklist shenanigans on the dock before untying and starting. No time for this as you are drifting off the dock into other planes or boats or river current: head up and outside the floatplane at all times.


    In exchange for my typing this screed you should post a couple cool photos of your bird and where you fly her.

    im sure I'm forgetting a bunch...


    Rocket
    Sorry Rocket, forgot ur other request about experience.
    i am about 500 ish hr pilot, most of which are on tripacer or pacer time.
    probably 70% of those hrs are taildragger on wheels and skis.
    i completed a float rating in my 22/20 with 15hrs and at least 150 or so landings and takeoffs on floats.
    still trying to figure out the photo
    paul

  9. #9
    scotthayd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    63
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Float Takeoff Trim

    Thanks Rocket!

    I have about 400 hours. 75 of those are in the Bushmaster on floats. The rest are mostly in my old PA-20-135 that I sold to buy the bushmaster.

    I got my float rating in a PA-22-160, and I can tell you it is a very different bird than the Bushmaster. The bushmaster can haul 4 comfortably and requires a lot less throttle work to manage descent rates.

    The key on the trim handle is an excellent tip -- I will definitely use that. I hadn't heard the 3 Ms before, I will use that too. The fuel tank thing is real. I learned it entering a climb in my old PA-20. The carb sucked air. The cabin got real quiet. And I leaned that I can switch tanks in .00731 seconds.

    I normally use the landing trim setting as my takeoff setting as well. What got me experimenting was a thread over at supercubs.org . People were claiming improved takeoff/landing performance with nose-down trim. When I tried it, it seemed to work. Of course my plane is neither pacer nor supercub, but I wanted to hear what people on this site have noticed. I will load up some sandbags next summer and do some experimenting.


    20190619_180911 (2).jpg20190810_195007.jpg

  10. #10
    1958pacer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    54
    Post Thanks / Like

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •