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Thread: ADSB In on Foreflight

  1. #21
    Wag-builder's Avatar
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    Default Re: ADSB In on Foreflight

    I too fly in the DC area and I can tell you that my all wood airplane without a transponder does not get painted, even when they try. Just as the Tri-Pacer does not get painted with the transponder off, so just because you are inside the 90 mile radius of DC does not mean airplanes are showing up and your ADS-B in. I keep me head out of the cockpit and looking outside of the plane because more times than you think there are airplanes out there.

  2. #22

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    Default Re: ADSB In on Foreflight

    Again, the transponder does not define whether you are painted or not by the primary radar. It provides the encrypted data IDing you and passing along pressure altitude. and, if you have a flight plan it will use this ID to correlate that on the scope for the controller.

    I think you are confusing two different topics are they painting you and are they tagging you as a target to your aircraft N number so it shows up when you type in your N number on flight aware. I believe based on what I read they more often than not see you , subject to the limitations of radar. But, are they tagging it to your N number? I donít think so because without a transponder code passing your ID, they donít have any data to make the correlation. You are just an unknown target, or clutter or a swarm of birds.

    And, back to the limitations of radar I do known to expect that south of Easton on the eastern shore I typically hear radar services terminated. I was told that is because they donít have great radar coverage that far south. That could account for some of your feelings on this top but they do on occasion seem to find some aircraft down there.

    https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N4358A


    https://www.ifr-magazine.com/system/...a-transponder/


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  3. #23
    6PapaWhiskey's Avatar
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    Default Re: ADSB In on Foreflight

    Quote Originally Posted by Tnathan View Post
    Again, the transponder does not define whether you are painted or not by the primary radar. It provides the encrypted data IDing you and passing along pressure altitude. and, if you have a flight plan it will use this ID to correlate that on the scope for the controller.

    I think you are confusing two different topics are they painting you and are they tagging you as a target to your aircraft N number so it shows up when you type in your N number on flight aware. I believe based on what I read they more often than not see you , subject to the limitations of radar. But, are they tagging it to your N number? I donít think so because without a transponder code passing your ID, they donít have any data to make the correlation. You are just an unknown target, or clutter or a swarm of birds.

    And, back to the limitations of radar I do known to expect that south of Easton on the eastern shore I typically hear radar services terminated. I was told that is because they donít have great radar coverage that far south. That could account for some of your feelings on this top but they do on occasion seem to find some aircraft down there.

    https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N4358A


    https://www.ifr-magazine.com/system/...a-transponder/


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    There is an FAA ADS-B ground station (GBT) in Stevensville, MD, about 15NM NW of Easton. That GBT should cover you down to about 500' AGL, maybe lower. Perhaps the controller at Potomac isn't using it?
    Tom P.
    Wagabond @ 08A

  4. #24

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    Default Re: ADSB In on Foreflight

    Quote Originally Posted by 6PapaWhiskey View Post
    There is an FAA ADS-B ground station (GBT) in Stevensville, MD, about 15NM NW of Easton. That GBT should cover you down to about 500' AGL, maybe lower. Perhaps the controller at Potomac isn't using it?
    Quote Originally Posted by 6PapaWhiskey View Post
    There is an FAA ADS-B ground station (GBT) in Stevensville, MD, about 15NM NW of Easton. That GBT should cover you down to about 500' AGL, maybe lower. Perhaps the controller at Potomac isn't using it?
    Yes, I know they see me on every flight. You seem right on the money. I start getting ads-b data around 500 feet. But, doesnít prove much because I have mode c and ads-b out. I guess I could leave the mode c veil turn everything off and see if I show up as an unknown target at my location.

    I wrote FlightAware and asked what targets do they display, but got an ambiguous answer. They said the targets come from three data sources:

    1. Ads -b as picked up by their network of ground based receivers.
    2. mlat: again uses a network of ground based mlat receivers triangulating on mode s signals
    3. Data stream from atc.

    In DGAs No transponder, no ads-b scenario, 1 and 2 wouldnít pick him up because he isnít equiped. So itís down to the atc data feed. I tried to get a straight answer from FlightAware whether they get from atc radar only contacts and do they pass that along. All they could say was we pass along every target provided in the atc data stream (we donít filter anything out).

    I could see that going either way. But even if they donít pass on radar only targets, I still think I am catching a lot more than I am missing, but can imaging flying a super cub in the Idaho back country may you may have a different experience


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  5. #25

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    Default Re: ADSB In on Foreflight

    Tnathan, glad you did your homework there. When I lived just outside NYC, the controllers could turn their gain down on the scope to make all the primary targets go away. Not sure if the current scopes have the same capability or not. The main point is that ATC only cares about traffic on an IFR flight plan. Any participating VFR traffic is only at the controllers discretion. ADSB has added a large percentage of non participating VFR traffic into the mix, but it still isnít ALL traffic. When operating in visual meteorological conditions, 91.113 requires you to maintain vigilance outside the aircraft. See and avoid is still the PRIMARY means of collision avoidance. Having ADSB in capability, wether on a flat panel in the instrument panel or on your iPad is a great addition to your tool box, but the mark 1 eyeball is still primary!

    Only about 2 years ago there was a midair at FDK in the pattern between a Cirrus with some form of collision avoidance system and an R22. The R22 was in the pattern, the Cirrus coming from the west, both talking to the tower. Even with all that, the Cirrus flew right into the helicopter. I just cringe anytime someone starts talking about not watching outside because they have the latest gadgets.


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  6. #26
    6PapaWhiskey's Avatar
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    Default Re: ADSB In on Foreflight

    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    Tnathan, glad you did your homework there. When I lived just outside NYC, the controllers could turn their gain down on the scope to make all the primary targets go away. Not sure if the current scopes have the same capability or not. The main point is that ATC only cares about traffic on an IFR flight plan. Any participating VFR traffic is only at the controllers discretion. ADSB has added a large percentage of non participating VFR traffic into the mix, but it still isnít ALL traffic. When operating in visual meteorological conditions, 91.113 requires you to maintain vigilance outside the aircraft. See and avoid is still the PRIMARY means of collision avoidance. Having ADSB in capability, wether on a flat panel in the instrument panel or on your iPad is a great addition to your tool box, but the mark 1 eyeball is still primary!

    Only about 2 years ago there was a midair at FDK in the pattern between a Cirrus with some form of collision avoidance system and an R22. The R22 was in the pattern, the Cirrus coming from the west, both talking to the tower. Even with all that, the Cirrus flew right into the helicopter. I just cringe anytime someone starts talking about not watching outside because they have the latest gadgets.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    I ask owners of aircraft with ADS-B during a flight review if they have read the AIM sections on how to use ADS-B, TIS-B, FIS-B, and ADS-R. Most don't know that this guidance exists. You'll find these in Section 5 (Surveillance Systems), Subsections 4-5-7 to 4-5-10.
    Tom P.
    Wagabond @ 08A

  7. #27

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    Default Re: ADSB In on Foreflight

    Agreed.

    I remember that one at fdk. Thatís still a head scratcher for me.

    Both talking to tower, if I recall. Tower alerted the sr 22 that there were 3 r22s working the pattern the sr22 replied I see 2. And, you would assume one or more of the aircraft could have had some toys to boot. I think a jury found the controller to be negligent, but it doesnít really matter now. Scanning, atc services, and maybe even some toys on board and still. . .

    I hear the sr22 folks point to this accident as support for the value of their parachute system. The sr 22 passengers were the only ones to survive. Not sure where to put a parachute on the pacer though.


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  8. #28

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    Default Re: ADSB In on Foreflight

    I own 4 airplanes. 3 fly regularly. ONE has a transponder with ADS-B out. One doesn’t have an electrical system so it will not get equipped by me. The other flier (C-150) may get equipped... someday. I am more concerned with getting working radios in it than a transponder and/or ADS-B. I have no plans to equip the PA-25 project (this may be where I get the radio for the 150).
    "Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement." - Fred Brooks

  9. #29
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    Default Re: ADSB In on Foreflight

    You see some interesting things watching ASDB aircraft activity on the Foreflight App. Just followed a C-172 SP departing Santa Monica making a large circling climbing Right turn out over open water off the departure end of LAX then passing overhead LAX at 5000 South East bound. All after dark. Obviously on a IFR flight plan.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Brian; 06-26-2020 at 11:43 PM.
    Brian
    Monrovia, CA

  10. #30

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    Default Re: ADSB In on Foreflight

    I was just scrolling around the country on ForeFlight and spotted what must have been a helicopter treating fields just south of Chico, CA. I watched the triangle make several passes over the same fields at 200 feet. It kind of surprised me that a cropduster would be equipped since none of the ag aircraft I have been around had transponders and that he could be seen on the internet that altitude.
    "Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement." - Fred Brooks

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