Windshield fabric issue

[MrBill]

Many of these airplanes are started off covering by people that give up halfway and sell them as a project. Most like to glue up the headliner before covering. I always collect as many ideas and pictures/instructions as I can find on the internet before and as I go along on a project that is new to me. I am smart enough to take everything I find as a grain of sand...of course because you will find many of other peoples projects are just plain done wrong. There you will find the most bragging and "as a matter of fact" crap.
Once that windscreen is in it is difficult or impossible to inspect how well the fabric is attached. I had to do my front install 3 times before I was comfortable with it and I am always bothered with what if's. I kinda wish I would have painted the top edge of my windscreen, the buried portion inside the channel. The fabric inside cannot be sprayed with silver so why would you shove a big chunk of fiber optics up against it then park outside?
Here is a pic I found that bothers me, if you do your headliner first dont take away the outside fabrics most critical gluing surface...my god?headl.jpgThey possibly could have left it unglued but it is the after thought when looking at it.
Another pic I came across but did not save because it plane gave me a headache someone had covered the wing root separate then left the top to lap over just that.
Couple other pics from the drawings before I go away..fabrictubeattach.jpgheadlinertubeattach.jpg

[Steve Pierce]

You can glue the headliner to the carry-thru tube leaving the Z strip open until the fuselage fabric is tucked inside etc. Thre is a lot of glue area on top of and in the windshield channel.

Inspect the top of the windshield, look for loose fabric, loose tape, frayed tap or fabric under the aluminum strip and if you don't have the aluminum strip I highly recommend installing it. Also look through the zipper in the headliner at the back side of the fabric at the windshield for any abnormalities.

A couple of pictures of one here on the field that someone put foil tape over the windshield seem on. No sign of loose fabric, paint cracking or abrasion.
PXL_20201112_192859435.jpg

Looking on the inside at the fabric weave I don't see any signs of the fabric flexing or fraying on the fuselage structure and fabric is tight. Fraying would be seed by black streaks along the fuselage strip in the weave of the fabric.
PXL_20201112_192957618.PORTRAIT-01.COVER.jpg

[Steve Pierce]

Lots of good points here. My preflights have a bit more beef to them now for sure. Even with my A&P schooling, I am very inexperienced with fabric. They didn’t teach anything more than a 25 question quiz where the instructor couldn’t pronounce butyrate. Granted, none of us could. But you get what I am saying. I pushed hard for more knowledge but didn’t have the right people around to teach me. I know more now, and I will know a lot more when I get done helping rebuild my pacer. Just makes for an expensive classroom.

in part, my lack of experience didn’t allow me to recognize the issue that ultimately took me down. I just want the world to know and understand this issue in hopes to keep it from causing another bird to go down. We need all the pilots and all the short wing pipers we can to be flying, not in a mangled pile in the corner of a hangar

In my opinion that is the benefit of this forum. My early career in aviation was on Warbird type aircraft with very little GA experience. When I started working GA I was disappointed in what the manufacturers provided as far as specific inspection criteria, however I do believe our Piper checklists put your eyes and hands on most everything that needs your attention. Having little tribal knowledge I started reading the FAA Malfunction and Defect Reports that came out monthly and learned a lot about problems being found in the fleet. I then joined the type clubs that supported the aircraft types I was maintaining and learned even more. After attending Piper Service school back in the late 90s I bought a computer and started finding forums on specific types and that is where the flood gates on knowledge really opened up with not only mechanics but owners sharing issues and asking questions. With these resources we can all have access to that tribal knowledge it has taken me 30 years in this field to obtain and continue to learn about. I sometimes complain about technology but in reality it has become very useful for me.

[Old3pacer]

Thanks to all for the additional information!
AL

[Steve Pierce]

Someone who will remain nameless egged that on. As another note I believe that the metal strip not only helps to eliminate the drumming and chafing on the fuselage attach angle but also helps clamp the fabric between the fuselage attach strip and the metal. Regardless I have not heard of anyone having an issue with detachment of the fuselage fabric with the metal strip installed.

[MrBill]

Great start in life and you followed your path in a way yer Pa would be proud. I know that is the way I would have gone but I was already spoiled, making too much money starting out in life. Funny looking at the poor students at my A&P school...after I tell em what my paychecks looked like, their jaws would drop open and say "what the hell are you doing here" I wanted to follow my dream but aviation went to hell before I graduated.

EDIT: This was to you Steve, got a few posts in while I was typing and made it look out of place.

[Subsonic]

The fabric inside cannot be sprayed with silver so why would you shove a big chunk of fiber optics up against it then park outside?

fabrictubeattach.jpgheadlinertubeattach.jpg

Would it be feasible to brush on the silver coat inside the channel?

I checked my windshield to fabric z-channel installation the other day and found the fabric wrapped and glued halfway down onto the fuse carry through tube. No silver dope on any of it. The fabric has a pinked tape reinforcement full width of the windshield as shown in the drawing above, and indicates no fraying or abrasive wear as discussed by Rocket. The carry through tube has a fabric (blue denim) sleeve velcroed over it to cover the uncoated fabric under with windshield. I don't have the reinforcing aluminum strip on top. My planes wings and fuse were recovered with Ceconite 102 in 1975. Control surfaces recovered again in 2006 for some reason I'm unaware of...Always hangared during its lifetime.

Reading all of this and seeing Gilberts "99 red balloons" picture makes me wonder about installing the Univair plate, now. Though ugly, I kinda like the aluminum tape idea to seal the seam, at least for weather. Has anyone seen any kind of sealer used on the windshield to fabric seam? Maybe a bit less ugly.

My only hesitation on the Univair aluminum reinforcement is screws and holes penetrating the skin. They become a weak point in the fabric and potential moisture entry point, etc. Extra attention paid to sealing them may fix that, tho. Do any of you have pictures of your installed univair reinforcing strip to share?

[MrBill]

I never used anything to seal my screen, hell its so tight in there anyway. No problems.
You wouldn't have to worry about the tape or paint being ugly if done right it will all be inside the seam stopping the UV's from getting the fabric. No way to protect it any other way even if you could get some silver in there you would peel it all away beating that windscreen in.
Your fabric that's exposed inside should be painted. I had an accident right after finishing up my restoration and had to do a patch inside. I did not want to go thru all the hassle masking it all off so I tried painting with a brush and it looked bad, couldn't get it right. Ended up masking it.
I have some pics I collected here n there, posting them could bring the internet police but come and get me *#cker! ...Windshield fabric trim2.jpgWindshield fabric trim3.jpgWindshield fabric trim4.jpg
These most likely came from this site and Im just kidding, I mean no harm.

[tnowak]

What does the community think the real cause is with the top fuselage fabric issue when non-cotton fabric used (Ceconite etc.)?
Poor glue adhesion to the windscreen channel or fabric breaking down due to UV where aircraft parked outside all the time?
TonyN

[Steve Pierce]

I would bet poor fabric adhesion, it gets loose, drums, abrades and tears.

Installing the metal strip per the service data is to remove the windshield etc. If you fabric is nice a tight I would pay attention every time you fuel the airplane and leave it until you see an issue or pull the windshield to replace. I have been working on a lot of Cub Crafters stuff lately and they use a small bead of clear silicone to seat their glass. I prefer Urethane sealant for it's adhesion but haven't see an issue on their airplanes with adhesion.