Stewart wing tip on PA-16

[dgapilot]

Even though I have the SWP drawing CD’s I have yet to stumble upon any of these prints. Thanks for posting the key drawing index.


Sent from my iPad using ShortWingPipers.Org

They are pretty much all there, figure out what drawing number you want, then go to the PDF folder and scan down to that number.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Steve Pierce]

They are pretty much all there, figure out what drawing number you want, then go to the PDF folder and scan down to that number.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Where did you get these drawings.

[dgapilot]

Where did you get these drawings.

Not sure where PA-16 got those master index pages from, but I’ve seen them somewhere else. There is a cleaned up version of the short wing pipers on the CD


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[PA-16]

Well I learned a little about my Clipper today, flew by myself with 20 gallons gas, so about 1350 takeoff weight. I wanted to see how slow I could get, it gets the nose way way up, I started trimming back slowly from 105mph, brought the power back to 1700 rpm and slowly trimmed nose up while holding altitude, about 55 mph the nose was plenty high for me, at least 45 degrees nose high and I dont remember what engine rpm was still about 1700, anyway I kept trimming back and finally a fairly gental stall at 50 mph, the thing is I dont think I ever got full nose up trim before it stalled, whereas with power off you can trim full aft to the stop and still glide without stalling, and that gave me a 500fpm stable descent at 50mph. But the power on slow flight man with just 1700 ish rpm she was pulling that nose higher than I was comfortable with and getting slower and slower until my right wing dropped, I dont remember the airspeed probably 45ish mph, I looked at it after I closed the throttle and let the nose drop it was at 50mph. I know power to idle is not how to recover from a stall from slow flight but I wanted that nose down not up, and I hadnt retrimmed nose down yet and adding power I would have had to fight the spring stick force. So roughly 50mph or just below 50mph it will stall in slow flight, I guess I need to go out there and do a full power climb stall next, with full power it doesn't like to stall, it climbs best rate about 70mph but it will climb at 50 with full power, at that weight on climbout after lowering nose to 70mph I had 1000fpm, at 50 it will only get 500fpm

After the slow flight I did a power off glide, here is where full aft trim gave me a nice stable 50mph 500fpm descent, but you cant approach using 50mph because you have know stick left to flare with, so I gave it a slight half crank or maybe a whole crank until it stabilized at 55mph and still gave me 500fpm rate descent, now I had some stick left to flare.

Those are the numbers I got with Plane Booster wing tips. I added full power on takeoff and pushed the stick full forward until the tail came up, than as it got level the speed passed through 45mph and I slowly pulled back and passing 50mph it lifted off between 50 and 55mph than I pitched for a 55mph climbing around 500fpm until about 300 feet and pushed the nose down trimmed for 70 and got that 1000fpm climb. Thats with the O-235 115hp engine, Im sure wirh an O-320 the takeoff would be much more exciting and quicker acceleration

[dgapilot]

Where did you get these drawings.

Steve, those index drawings are on the drawing CD. In the PDF folder, towards the end, keyindex.pdf


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[PA-16]

I routinely land in 600 feet when I need to. I’ve never had a problem with my Clipper floating but I do have stock wing tips. I shoot for 60 to 65 on short final. I’ve found a wide disparity in AIR SPEED indicators in airplanes like the Clipper and Vagabond that have no static system. I even flew a Pacer once that stalled at 70 mph. The owner told me it was a really fast airplane. Really!
Duplicating the location of the TriPacer static port location solved my issue with the A/S.

I am going to go out and experiment more, I dont ever land on anything real short, 2000' is the shortest. How can I cal or test my airspeed accuracy without taking it to a shop.. if I do a gps 4 leg.. mile or two legs and average out the groundspeeds, will that give me a close to accurate base to start with to compare to my airspeed indication?

Another question, my altimeter and vsi source is like the original and no line going to an outside static, theyre reading behind panel pressure. I am not sure but my airspeed probably is also reading panel static pressure. If I wanted to make it like the Try Pacer is it easy, as in something I can do myself or with mechanic without much expense? My airspeed pitot line is clear rubber or plastic tube.. maybe 5/16 OD small stuff, will that work for the static line routed out to a port? Are the airspeed and vsi and altimeter going to the same static source or port, or do they each need separate lines and not connected together?

[dgapilot]

Well I learned a little about my Clipper today, flew by myself with 20 gallons gas, so about 1350 takeoff weight. I wanted to see how slow I could get, it gets the nose way way up, I started trimming back slowly from 105mph, brought the power back to 1700 rpm and slowly trimmed nose up while holding altitude, about 55 mph the nose was plenty high for me, at least 45 degrees nose high and I dont remember what engine rpm was still about 1700, anyway I kept trimming back and finally a fairly gental stall at 50 mph, the thing is I dont think I ever got full nose up trim before it stalled, whereas with power off you can trim full aft to the stop and still glide without stalling, and that gave me a 500fpm stable descent at 50mph. But the power on slow flight man with just 1700 ish rpm she was pulling that nose higher than I was comfortable with and getting slower and slower until my right wing dropped, I dont remember the airspeed probably 45ish mph, I looked at it after I closed the throttle and let the nose drop it was at 50mph. I know power to idle is not how to recover from a stall from slow flight but I wanted that nose down not up, and I hadnt retrimmed nose down yet and adding power I would have had to fight the spring stick force. So roughly 50mph or just below 50mph it will stall in slow flight, I guess I need to go out there and do a full power climb stall next, with full power it doesn't like to stall, it climbs best rate about 70mph but it will climb at 50 with full power, at that weight on climbout after lowering nose to 70mph I had 1000fpm, at 50 it will only get 500fpm

After the slow flight I did a power off glide, here is where full aft trim gave me a nice stable 50mph 500fpm descent, but you cant approach using 50mph because you have know stick left to flare with, so I gave it a slight half crank or maybe a whole crank until it stabilized at 55mph and still gave me 500fpm rate descent, now I had some stick left to flare.

Those are the numbers I got with Plane Booster wing tips. I added full power on takeoff and pushed the stick full forward until the tail came up, than as it got level the speed passed through 45mph and I slowly pulled back and passing 50mph it lifted off between 50 and 55mph than I pitched for a 55mph climbing around 500fpm until about 300 feet and pushed the nose down trimmed for 70 and got that 1000fpm climb. Thats with the O-235 115hp engine, Im sure wirh an O-320 the takeoff would be much more exciting and quicker acceleration

There is no “owners handbook” for the PA-16, just a Flight Manual. The flight manual lists stall speed as 52 mph. That would be sea level standard day conditions at gross weight, but doesn’t say if calibrated or true airspeed. The biggest problem with the PA-16 is that there is no static system, it just takes whatever pressure is in the cabin as the static source, and that will vary if the window is open, if there are air leaks around the doors, the gear fairings, or any other possible leak into the cabin. Likewise as you increase your angle of attack, the pitot mast is no longer directly into the airstream, so will introduce additional errors into your airspeed indicator. Using the airspeed to determine an exact stall speed will never provide what you want.

All that said, your indicated stall is pretty close to the published number even though you were likely several hundred pounds below gross. You can use the owners handbook for the Colt to get climb data and your Vp and Vy speeds. While maybe not exact, they will be about the best you can get. Pretty much the same airplane except a nose gear, same engine and same gross weight.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[dgapilot]

I am going to go out and experiment more, I dont ever land on anything real short, 2000' is the shortest. How can I cal or test my airspeed accuracy without taking it to a shop.. if I do a gps 4 leg.. mile or two legs and average out the groundspeeds, will that give me a close to accurate base to start with to compare to my airspeed indication?

Another question, my altimeter and vsi source is like the original and no line going to an outside static, theyre reading behind panel pressure. I am not sure but my airspeed probably is also reading panel static pressure. If I wanted to make it like the Try Pacer is it easy, as in something I can do myself or with mechanic without much expense? My airspeed pitot line is clear rubber or plastic tube.. maybe 5/16 OD small stuff, will that work for the static line routed out to a port? Are the airspeed and vsi and altimeter going to the same static source or port, or do they each need separate lines and not connected together?

For the static system, there are two known sources that would be pretty close. Early PA-22s and PA-20s have a combined pitot static probe where your pitot mast is. You could run another tube out to the wing and find that pitot mast set up. Look in the PA-20 parts book for the part number. The other option that I’m using takes a little more work and best done when the fuselage is uncovered. Later PA-22s have two static buttons on the belly just forward of where they have an inspection panel. On the PA-22, there are two stringers on the belly, and they are mounted to the stringers. The PA-16 only has a single stringer running down the center of the belly, so additional structure needs to be added to mount two static buttons there. They are connected together and then a single tube is run up to the instrument panel.

Best thing is to lean to fly more by pitch and power (and feel) than relying on the airspeed indicator. Use it as a reference, but use your eyes outside and feel of the controls for a reference. The only real reason for installing a true static system is if you want to use the airplane as an instrument platform.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[PA-16]

Thanks, I have the PA-20 "115" stall and takeoff landing numbers, shows as IAS, and power off stall as 53 mph, my plane will not do a power off stall, probably because of the plane booster tips, it just does a 50mph 500fpm descent, possibly at max gross it might, but when I flew yesterday at 1500 MSL and 40 American degrees and 1300 pounds, she wont stall trimmed full aft to the stop it wont stall. The only stall I did yesterday was the slow flight stall and that was scary because the nose was so high, had to be at least 50 degrees nose up and still flying and it finally broke I think just shy of 50mph, I was busy keeping wings level and ball centered wondering when it was going to stall, and finally that right wing went and I immediately chopped the power and let the nose fall so I could see in front of me instead of strait up to the sky, felt like I was going to fall out the tail of the plane.

Full power climb I will point it sky high the same attitude but the difference is she is going up climbing good and its fun, full power you can hang it on the prop almost and its not scary like slow flight where she is just wobbling barely flying.

Here is the Pacer 115 performance page, I was getting much better climb but I was a lot less than gross weight, I dont think you will even get as good as those numbers at gross weight with a 115hp Clipper.

[Stephen]

Cross check your IAS with your gps ground speed in several directions. My IAS is zero during a departure stall. You can also find your deck angle when doing stalls putting a plumbob hanging in the window and an upside down protractor. I know, it does feel like the nose is very high. Learning the performance ability of your plane is good.