Inboard flaps

[Spdcrazy]

Wow! I've not noticed any problems closing the gap inboard with my flaps. I do full flap hard slips, all types of stalls. I've never had death wobble shaking flutter. Piper engineering was good but, far from perfect.

is your fuselage not stretched?

[Stephen]

is your fuselage not stretched?

Good point.

XWinds has had this STC for a long time.

But, modifying the flap may not make much difference.

[Steve Pierce]

Bender has the inboard flaps and I noticed no issue with them on his Pacer. Flies really nice and he gets it in most of the same places we put our Super Cubs. Didn't notice any Death wobble or lose of pitch control. It is the one Steve and Brian Pankonin replaced the fuselage on a few years ago that is cream and light blue that I post pictures of from time to time. I have flown a lot of Super Cubs with and without flaps inboard to the fuselage. On some the stick will dance a little when you are really slow but i have only noticed it on a few and always had full pitch control. I get it on some of the Super Cubs (10 total) that I have installed Performance STOL flaps on but not all. Again, always have pitch control. Personally I want all the flap area I can get especially on a Pacer.

[stevesaircraft(Bri)]

Bender has the inboard flaps and I noticed no issue with them on his Pacer. Flies really nice and he gets it in most of the same places we put our Super Cubs. Didn't notice any Death wobble or lose of pitch control. It is the one Steve and Brian Pankonin replaced the fuselage on a few years ago that is cream and light blue that I post pictures of from time to time. I have flown a lot of Super Cubs with and without flaps inboard to the fuselage. On some the stick will dance a little when you are really slow but i have only noticed it on a few and always had full pitch control. I get it on some of the Super Cubs (10 total) that I have installed Performance STOL flaps on but not all. Again, always have pitch control. Personally I want all the flap area I can get especially on a Pacer.

Does Bender have VG's.??.. Our 180 Pacer does with the inboard flaps and it does not shake.. Makes me wonder if the ones that shake don't have VG's installed..?

Brian.

[Spdcrazy]

That was my thinking as well steve. I will have the Pa18 tail anyways so that should help with any lack of authority I would expect. Wish I didn’t have to make a decision on these fairing first. I’d build a set of longer flaps and give it a whirl!

[Marc Davis]

I have the full crosswind STOL kit on my plane (I don't have the aileron gap seals right now), as well a the droop tip that add an extra rib (some don't). I have about 800 hours in PA-22's and PA22/20 of every flavor. I can and do land regularly in 375ft. With taller gear, larger tires, or beating up my tailwheel, I could cut that down a little. I fly my plane as close to the edge of the envelope as any and closer than most. The plane slips great. It slips as well or better than a stock short wing. Excellent controllability right through stall. No "death" anything.
My plane came to me in this configuration and I love it. If I was to build another plane I would do VGs, gap seals, and extended flaps. I think that would yield the most improvement for the easiest modifications.

[Subsonic]

I have the full crosswind STOL kit on my plane (I don't have the aileron gap seals right now), as well a the droop tip that add an extra rib (some don't). I have about 800 hours in PA-22's and PA22/20 of every flavor. I can and do land regularly in 375ft. With taller gear, larger tires, or beating up my tailwheel, I could cut that down a little. I fly my plane as close to the edge of the envelope as any and closer than most. The plane slips great. It slips as well or better than a stock short wing. Excellent controllability right through stall. No "death" anything.
My plane came to me in this configuration and I love it. If I was to build another plane I would do VGs, gap seals, and extended flaps. I think that would yield the most improvement for the easiest modifications.

Marc, I'm just ignorant and hoping you can explain it to me. I've gone to the Crosswinds STOL site and find their explanations enticing, but a bit short on pictures to help me understand what they're selling with respect to the wingtips, specifically. I don't want to offend, but their website is a bit dated. Do you know where I can get more information on the wingtip mod and STC? What is involved to install? What is in parts package and paperwork for these wingtips. I know something about aerodynamics and these wingtips are very interesting to me and I'd like to know more about the installation and what they sell you in the kit. I am so ready to buy it if I knew more about it. Thanks.
-Subsonic

[Marc Davis]

As I understand it, the Crosswind STOL kit consists of a leading edge cuff, stall fences, aileron and flaps gap seals, and flaps extended inboard. The wing tips for the PA-22 were not part of the STC or if they were, not many were installed. Most people installed Fergison tips because they extend the wing. These days there are better option from Sullivan and Svenn's. Both extend the wing and increase wing area. The droop tip is an older design with arguable benefits. There is an extensive thread on this sight about the available wing tip options. Field Guide to Shortwing Wingtip STC's

The Crosswind STOL kit is trying to reduce stall speed and maintain controllability at low air speeds.
The leading edge cuff adds a sort of a cup shape (camper) to the bottom of the wing which reduces stall speed.
Because of wing washout (twist), stalls start at root of the wing. Stall fences help to delay the propagation of the stall from the root to the tip. This means the area of the wing with the ailerons in it stalls last, helping with low speed controllability.
VG do both of these things and are a lot less invasive to install.

With the longer wing, the roll rate is slowed. Aileron gap seals are supposed to help with this. I'm hoping to make some before and after measurements on my plane at some point.

The extended flaps and flap gap seals help with stall speed. There are better ways of doing that with other types of flaps, like fowler flaps, but they are not available for or planes.

[Stephen]

I think Mac is correct. Increase flap, add VG's, increase wing area with Sullivan or Svenn tips, add aileron gap seals and go to PA 18 stabilizer/elevator. Then reduce weight and up HP and get big prop. Now you've got a Cub killer.

[Marc Davis]

I've also heard rumor's that adding a gap seal to the elevator makes a marked improvement to the elevator authority.