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Thread: PA-17 Crosswind Component?

  1. #1

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    Default PA-17 Crosswind Component?

    Searched the forums, no joy. All I could find was PA-22 info.
    Read through 73 years of airplane documents, no joy.
    Anyone know what the crosswind component is for a PA-17?

    I got caught by a +15 mph, 90 degree gust yesterday, and with full right aileron and the wing almost dragging on the ground i was pushed completely off the runway.
    Luckily, I was at flying speed and was able to fly out.

    Thanks

  2. #2

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    Default Re: PA-17 Crosswind Component?

    Well, if 15 cross wasnít fun I would say less than 15, whether itís a poh value or a personal minimum. And, I really have begun to think that each of our planes are so different these days with modes that a poh value is less meaningful.

    I think our planes have gotten a bad rap generally. They are much better than most folks give them credit for, but that is fine by me. I have a 4 place husky for about 1/3 the price and get to feel like I am part of the club at vintage during airventure. But, one area that I feel is a little lacking in the design is ailerons. But I joke with my wife that it simplifies my crosswind tactics. After about 8-10kts cross, Put in all you have. Are you still sliding downstream? Donít land. The conditions are exceeding the airplanes capability, or yours. Simple.

    I think I read a while back about some folks that have expanded the aileron surface. Sounds like open heart surgery. Not something I have considered but it told me others have come to the same conclusion. Also, the guy that built my pacer was a strong believer in VGs. When I asked why, he said they help the control surfaces work deeper into the stall more than the stall speed suppression most folks focus on. If you donít have vgs maybe something to consider. But I know others will disagree.

    Lastly I wheel land my gnarly cross winds. I am not a senior member here with decades of experience, so you can take my views with a grain of salt, but works better for me. Come in faster and touch the mains. If I donít like things, hit the power and get the plane flying again. The extra speed compensates for the cross wind better and I can get the mains on and work the brakes as the rudder stops working. I know others will disagree. The down side to my approach is it keeps excess energy in system that could make an accident more dynamic, you need a good smooth landing surface for the brakes to work on, more runway, and you are trusting that the wheels and brakes will work as anticipated.

    I had a landing a few weeks ago at my airport that got my attention. My runway is 11-29. Called weather 5 miles out and winds were reported as 170@8. So I lined up for 11 and prepared myself for a challenging but doable landing. I come in and am working my wheel landing and after I touch I am really having to work my butt off to keep her going where I wanted. I pull off thinking ďman I must be more tired than I thought, that was a lot harder than I expected.Ē I flipped over to check the winds and now I hear 220@10G15. So, in 5 minutes the winds shifted from something that is within my capabilities from the right direction to something I wouldnít have knowing taken on: a 10g15 quartering tailwind. Made me feel better about my skills and what the pacer can take if flown well, but I would rather pick my battles than have battles pick me.

    Not really the question you asked but Hope some of this is useful. And with everything you read on line feel free to disregard.


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  3. #3

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    Default Re: PA-17 Crosswind Component?

    Tnathan: Thanks for the response. My question was more out of curiosity, since there really isn't much of a POH for this aircraft.
    I'm one of those guys who has been doing this for decades. Just not in this type. This was just my third flight in the aircraft. I was surprised at how easily it was being shoved around.
    I've done crosswind landings and takeoffs in the J3 (POH: 8 mph crosswind component), in worse conditions with less drama.
    Lesson learned, and I live to fly another day.

    Shep

  4. #4

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    Default Re: PA-17 Crosswind Component?

    Under the certification regulations, there is no such thing as a crosswind limit. There is a requirement for a demonstrated crosswind capability, and under CAR 3 that is a 90 degree crosswind of 0.2 Vso. This is by no means a limit as most airplanes can handle far more than that. No US certified airplane has a crosswind limit listed in a flight manual as there is no regulatory requirement to base it on. It all comes down to what you feel comfortable with. Has nothing to do with what the airplane can do and everything to do with what the pilot, in the specific airplane, can do. Iíve flown motorgliders that Iím not comfortable with more than about a 7 mph crosswind, and Iíve regularly flown a PA-18 with a 30 mph crosswind.


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  5. #5

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    Default Re: PA-17 Crosswind Component?

    DGApilot, I can always count on you for a clear answer. I forgot about what that number represents. Thanks for the refresher. And as for me, at about 15 I start to wonder why I pulled her out. Maybe in another decade my comfort level will grow as yours has.


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  6. #6

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    Default Re: PA-17 Crosswind Component?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tnathan View Post
    DGApilot, I can always count on you for a clear answer. I forgot about what that number represents. Thanks for the refresher. And as for me, at about 15 I start to wonder why I pulled her out. Maybe in another decade my comfort level will grow as yours has.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Go out and start towing gliders, when you are doing 30-40 tows a day you hone your skills pretty fast, and the good soaring days are right after cold front passage when the wind is whipping at 30 KTS out of 300 degrees. Thatís when everyone wants to fly, and of course the runway is more like 21!


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  7. #7

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    Default Re: PA-17 Crosswind Component?

    Shepard, thanks for the response. I find landing the paver easier. I put in what I got and just focus on watching whether itís working or not. I find the cub a tougher teacher. Those big wings like to get blown around more in my opinion but I have a hell of a lot more aileron, but I need to use it wisely. I am a big guy and hate ramming the stick into my private parts. I much prefer taking on crosswinds in the pacer than the cub I know others will disagree. Like DGApilot alluded to it comes down to the pilot. The tools on the plane work if used correctly.

  8. #8

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    Default Re: PA-17 Crosswind Component?

    Another important item, you donít have to track the centerline of the runway! If you land on a diagonal, you can significantly reduce your crosswind component (depending on runway width). It is much easier to land on grass than on pavement! You can always use a taxiway mor into the wind instead of the runway (at uncontrolled airports), there is no regulation saying you have to land on a runway. And above all else, if you donít like what you are seeing at one airport, you can and should, go to an airport with a runway more aligned into the wind.


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  9. #9

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    Default PA-17 Crosswind Component?

    All good points. I have heard of landing skewed to the runway. I havenít gotten comfortable trying that yet and My runway is pretty narrow but itís a good idea to take some of the cross wind out, especially if you have a wide runway.

    After Harrison ford, I kind of ruled out taxiway landings but it could work at an uncontrolled airport, as you say, but I donít have a taxiway that looks more appealing at my airport. If you try and it doesnít work out, could be an interesting conversation with avemco explaining how you ground-looped on a taxiway or ran into a fence, hanger, etc. at 30mph.

    I also had an old timer tell me one time he was dealing with some crazy crosswinds one night in the middle of a blizzard, if you believe that. No one else but him was around, of course, so he landed on the taxiway between a row of hangers that he thought provided a wind break. He was here to tell me the story so I guess it worked. . . . Or it was a fish tail.

    A sensible answer is to go somewhere else. I donít have suitable grass at my airport, but have an airport 30 miles away with a perpendicular grass runway, but itís in the middle of nowhere. Just hard to make that call when you can see your car and hanger at your home airport from the pattern.


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    Last edited by Tnathan; 10-01-2021 at 07:00 PM.

  10. #10

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    Default Re: PA-17 Crosswind Component?

    The most that I have done is landing on runway 27, with the winds out of 190 degrees, 17 gusting to 24 knots. That's in my Vagabond. Plenty of control, I didn't have to use full aileron or rudder. The only problem was that after landing (three point, a mistake) the wind pushed the airplane sideways, hopping across the runway. I pushed the stick forward to pick the tail up, reducing the angle of attack and putting more weight on the main wheels. That stopped the hopping. Steered with rudder and brakes. No big deal.
    I then did another take-off and tail low wheel landing. No problem.
    And, yes, I did push in full aileron after getting on the ground. Just be ready for the adverse yaw when doing that.
    Last edited by DaleLindstrom; 10-01-2021 at 10:50 PM.

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