How much will she haul??

[Barron]

Hi short-wing team. I have a question about the performance of Pacers / Tri-Pacers at or above gross weight... hypothetical, of course, since one should never operate above gross weight.

Some framing... folks who fly Super Cubs know that the plane will "cube out before she grosses out," meaning, unless you're carrying gold bricks, there's basically not enough room in the Cub to overload it. If you have enough runway, she WILL take off. Gross weight on a Cub is 1750, but "I know a guy" who routinely loaded his Cub 500lbs over gross without a problem. So the "book gross weight" and "practical gross weight" are very different.

How does a 150hp Pacer compare? How does she perform at / above gross weight, given enough runway, not a hot day / high density altitude, etc.?

To standardize the question... consider a 150hp Pacer, 200lbs over gross, with a 3000-ft runway and standard atmosphere. (If flying over-gross weren't against regs...) Would you take off?

It's not that I plan to fly over gross, but if operating at or near gross, it's nice to know if there's some cushion.

Thanks

[Jspey]

.......No.

[Armstrong]

.......No.

I second that

[mmoyle]

I’ll second that NO!
Remember what that yellow arc on your airspeed indicator means? That when at gross and in the green arc which is maneuvering speed you can not damage the airframe. Even if it’ll fly with an extra 500# you will have no clue where the green arc ends and the yellow begins…. Here in Alaska for instance one can experience sudden severe turbulence. So much so that when flying my Pacer at around 105mph I hit turbulence just south of Wassilla that pushed me well into the yellow arc. Thankfully I was lightly loaded. Full fuel, me and a 60# bag of traction sand against the rear bulkhead…behind the rear seat.


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[Jspey]

Originally Posted by Jspey
.......No.



I second that

I was going to add something snarky like "that sounds like what a fed would say", but decided against it.

[Barron]

Thanks, mmoyle. My Cub background is in AK too... there's no better playground to understand a plane's true capabilities. Do you fly your Pacer off-airport? What engine do you run? What take-off/landing performance do you get when you're light? When you're heavy? What do you consider to be "heavy?"

[Barron]

I was going to say the same to both of y'all. At least mmoyle had some actual thoughts

[Jspey]

I was going to say the same to both of y'all. At least mmoyle had some actual thoughts

Sorry, I guess that was my outside voice.

My 22/20 is only 135 horse, so I know it when I'm heavy. So much so that I like to stay far away from gross. As far as an actual number, (personal minimum/maximum) I don't really have one. Maybe I should. Sometimes the treetops at the end of the runway just feel closer than I'd like. They seem even closer when I have pax.

[Armstrong]

Well Barron, my sincere apologies for the brevity of my response. �� I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Moyle and have a couple of things to add.

Something we almost never discuss as GA pilots is DMMS (defined MINIMUM maneuvering speed) Possibly why we always see a spate of Moose Stalls etc. every year. Many of these pilots were much more talented than I, and I am certain of that. When we throw a curve into the equation like being over-gross, anything previously established tor a safety strategy goes out the window.

On my PA-22/20-150 with VGs, my Personally assigned DMMS is 70 mph at Gross. This is the lower limit of the airspeed at which I’m comfortable at using all control inputs. If I’m light at say 1650 (and alone) I’ll nudge that number down to 60 mph. Of course on short final and in the process of flaring and dealing with gusts and crosswinds, I will use any control input necessary.

I’ve derived these numbers for my aircraft by going aloft and trying slow flight, steep turns, stalls, etc. at a few different weights. All within limits of course. I feel I have a small margin of safety where I’ve set them, but of course, the dicier the conditions, the higher those numbers will become.

I have no Idea what a DMMS would be for my aircraft at 2,200 lbs and I’m no test pilot.

I like Gilbert’s line, if there are no pictures, it didn’t happen, so if you’d like to see what a slightly modified Pacer can do when loaded light, see the link below. Amazing at the hands of a master…I hope this helps you with your evaluation of the Pacer. Cheers, John

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9CTWNaDTlQ&t=81s

[mmoyle]

Thanks, mmoyle. My Cub background is in AK too... there's no better playground to understand a plane's true capabilities. Do you fly your Pacer off-airport? What engine do you run? What take-off/landing performance do you get when you're light? When you're heavy? What do you consider to be "heavy?"

Haven’t done any off airport with this airplane. It’s cherry and I don’t want to break it again. Want to take a couple courses with Alaska Float and ski first. The two courses are their bush and ski training. Running a hot rod 320 that’ll pull a 74” 62 pitch prop. Had it repitched to 59. Leading edge exhaust, cam and ported cylinders by Lycon. Heavy duty 3” extended PA18 gear, PA18 tail. Mentioned on the supercub site there is a Pacer out there with a field approval on the ground adjustable Sensenich prop…will be using one of those. Right now it’ll get off the ground in ground effect in about 250’ when light…..it’s a little heavy. 1293# empty with 26” Goodyears and a baby bushwheel… heavy it gets off in maybe 600’. I can consistently get down and stopped in 450’. That’s all guesses based upon the 200’ between each runway light… and it always blows in Platinum… some times use less than 100’ but it’s a wild ride and scares the chit out of me.
My worst enemy is snow drifts…oh….just received another set of oleo struts from Ak Airframes….I need new so that I’m able to modify them. Need to get the wheel camber to zero… they lean out 10 degrees right now and that’s not good! Wheel skis are next on the list.


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